The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. - Mailer Diablo 05:29, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Non-notable mall, fails WP:CORP TJ Spyke 00:25, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Reluctant delete, subject to change if any user adds information that leads to the article passing WP:CORP. It was my hope to resolve that matter prior to an AfD, but the nominator chose to go ahead with this discussion, which is his right.Erechtheus 00:28, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • If the mall is notable, then the person who removed the prod should be able to find sources proving so within 5 days. TJ Spyke 01:01, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't disagree. I have simply had enough AfDs go bad due to my own decisions to rush in for deletion that I'm taking a more cautious approach. You don't have to feel constrained by my choice. Erechtheus 01:10, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Explain how WP:CORP, the guidelines for including companies and brand names, applies to shopping malls? Malls should be considered under WP:LOCAL to begin with. --AlexWCovington (talk) 19:37, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Keep - There are a slew of other articles about what I'm assuming many would consider to be non-notable malls. Why is this one so much less notable than so many others who are allowed to have their own articles? This mall is notable because it was one of the first enclosed malls in this part of the country.--MatthewUND^(talk) 02:51, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What's is a "part of the country?"–♥ «Charles A. L.» 16:46, 14 September 2006 (UTC) P.S. don't delete things from AFD pages[reply]

• Keep - I feel that enclosed malls which are the first in their area are notable enough if only from a historic standpoint. Also agree with MatthewUND^(talk) that there are other articles on malls, both enclosed and not, that haven't been targeted. (Not that I'm proposing we seek out mall articles for deletion.) MichaelCaricofe 03:05, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Why not? Do we not have enough examples for WP:Pokémon test?–♥ «Charles A. L.» 03:14, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Truthfully, I'm afraid to argue this one too much (this is my first foray into the AfD arena). MichaelCaricofe 03:28, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Weak delete per Erechtheus. Admittedly, this doesn't seem to be an ad, which is usually how I justify to myself saying "delete" on merely NN articles, but I want to be consistent. Process is important.–♥ «Charles A. L.» 03:14, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think it can be a real shame when a decent article gets deleted all in the name of "process". --MatthewUND^(talk) 05:25, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is a fight between notability and Wikipedia is not paper. "This is a mall" (the article says more than that, but not much more) pushes me onto the NN side. The article might be editable to put me on the not-paper side, as Erechtheus said. As it is, however, it's primarily a directory. By "process is important" I meant only that there is a consensus (an evolving one, to be sure) on what is appropriate for Wikipedia, and I'm not going to buck it.–♥ «Charles A. L.» 13:33, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. I don't see anything notable here. Would anyone ever want to read this article? --Ogdred 03:29, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • People voting to keep are saying it's notable, do you have any sources to show that it's notable? TJ Spyke 04:14, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per WP:N; hasn't been mentioned in any major media sources; doesn't seem to have a notable historical background.--TBCTaLk?!? 04:13, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete it's rare that the local mall is notable. I'm sure we can all think of more encyclopedic subjects than whether or not there's a hardware store in a mall in Grand Forks. Opabinia regalis 04:15, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete This is too much like a directory listing. Is the next step to create pages for every local Wal-Mart?Allon FambrizziAllon Fambrizzi
• Delete unless some references from reliable sources are provided. -- Mako 05:40, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep... aren't large enclosed malls inherently notable? — Dark Shikari ^talk/_contribs 12:41, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I have never seen a proposed notability guideline that makes such a case. What makes you think that? Erechtheus 16:51, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - Give me a break. This is no different from any of hundreds of different mall articles already on WP. It certainly isn't any different from the other mall in Grand Forks. I must also strongly protest the fact that this was nominated without contacting anyone in WikiProject North Dakota. --AlexWCovington (talk) 14:59, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment in that case perhaps Columbia Mall (Grand Forks) should be bundled into this AfD as well...--Isotope23 15:46, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment in that case perhaps Category:Shopping malls should be bundled into this AfD as well...--AlexWCovington (talk) 19:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment if someone wants to go through the bother of nominating the entries there, I'd not object.--Isotope23 20:34, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete, unreferenced for starters, but even if referenced there is nothing to set this mall apart from the hundreds of other malls across America.--Isotope23 15:43, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep at least as notable as hundreds of pokemons (which dont even exist in the real world!) Jcuk 18:20, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What a good point, Jcuk. Why is it just fine to have countless articles about ficticious cartoon characters, but it is so bad to have an article about a physical place with a real history and - at the very least - regional notability. --MatthewUND^(talk) 23:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment actually I'd be more than happy to see all the pokecruft gone from Wikipedia, but realistically speaking, that will never happen. Still, just because Wikipedia has become a stomping ground for hundreds of articles about the minutiae of a childrens cartoon (curiously written by people who apparently are not in the target 10 year old market) doesn't justify adding any other sort of article. A better arguement for this existing in Wikipedia is to demonstrate the notability of this mall... as other are attempting to do.--Isotope23 03:56, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per nom. Moreschi 19:34, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• STRONG KEEP Sorry folks but the deletes have not done any leg work here, so shame on you, especially the Nom which I virtual shake a finger at for lack of their own research. The mall was built in 1964 and called 'South Forks Plaza'. It was Grand Forks', and North Dakota's first enclosed mall. How is that for notability? --Brian ^{(How am I doing?)} 19:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - according to WP:V the burden of evidence lies with the editors who have added (or wish to retain) unreferenced information, not those who wish the unreferenced information to be removed. Mako 23:45, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment, I was aware this was the first enclosed mall in North Dakota... and I'm still was not convinced of notability; any more than I'd find an article about the first Ikea to open in Michigan (which was a huge media event in the Detroit area) notable. As there is no accepted guideline for physical locations, all I can go on is personal judgement and to me "first enclosed mall in a state" doesn't cut it.--Isotope23 04:01, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• STRONG KEEP - This mall is as notable as any and Bschott above put it better than I can. Being the first mall in North Dakota certainly deserves recognition. Weatherman90 20:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • And so far the keeps have not provided any SOURCES that show why it's notable. This mall is not notable just because you say it is. Also, you are free to nominate other similiar non-notable malls as well since I cannot know about every article on every mall here. TJ Spyke 20:15, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Since you are pushing the issue for what ever reason you feel so strongly about it, I'll head to the library and find the books to reference. You may not know about ever article but you certainly have the ability to research before voting. --Brian ^{(How am I doing?)} 20:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • I have, other articles on malls have been deleted for being non-notable. I can't be expected to know about every article on a mall though. TJ Spyke 20:40, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, it's just a mall in a smaller town, and it's a tourist attraction in North Dakota, esp. the eastern half of the state. Grand Cities Mall (formerly South Forks Plaza) was there more than 10 years before the more known Columbia Mall.--grejlen - talk 21:01, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• It might be lesser known to some people who aren't from around here, but it's well known in North Dakota and western Minnesota.--grejlen - talk 21:01, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• After more research at the library, I found technically the "Park Plaza Shopping Center" in Jamestown, opened a week before "South Forks Plaza" was the first enclosed mall in North Dakota, though the South Forks was finished first. (Courtesy of the "The Source: 2005 Edition", published by the Jamestown Sun) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bschott (talk • contribs)
• Delete Malls are businesses, in the business of renting space to retail stores. That means WP:CORP is the applicable standard. The article, and this AFD to date, contains no evidence (and not even an assertion) that the mall meets the standards set by WP:CORP. And yes, I assume that there are swarms of other mall articles out there that deserve deletion. When/if I encounter one in my editing, I'll nominate it, but I don't go out of my way to look for articles to nominate. GRBerry 01:07, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. No, that doesn't make WP:CORP apply, because the article is not about that business of renting out the space in the mall. Rather it is about the presence and impance on a community; it is more along the lines of the proposed Wikipedia:Places of local interest. Gene Nygaard 03:49, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• People who are voting keep, you need to provide a source that shows why this articles to be kept. No sources have been provided saying why this mall is notable at all. Also, Wikipedia:Places of local interest is only a proposed policy(meaning it isn't official policy yet). TJ Spyke 03:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You poisoned the well by bringing up WP:CORP. Museums and theaters and football stadiums are businesses too, but it isn't the business implications that are most important to the articles. Neither they nor malls should be considered on the basis of notabilities as businesses, per se. Gene Nygaard 16:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• TJ, I don't know how much clearer it could be. Head down to the local library, see if they will order "The Source: 2005 Edition" published by the Jamestown Sun. Books are allowed as sources per Wikipedia policy if I recall, unless that changed overnight and someone forgot to forward the memo to me. --Brian ^{(How am I doing?)} 04:56, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • How does being the second enclosed mall in South Dakota make it notable though? TJ Spyke 05:06, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I had no idea Grand Forks was in South Dakota. Only lived in North Dakota most of my life and thought GF was in North Dakota. Guess I learn something new each day from people who can't even take the time to get the facts straight. It was the first built/completed but second opened (by six days) in North Dakota. It also has been the longest open as "The Park" was closed for a few years then reopened back in the 1980's, and although it had damage because of The Flood of 1997 it was re-modeled and one of the very first businesses reopened after the flood. I'm quite sure a search of the local paper, the GFH would bring up these facts, though they don't have a searchable Archive online. Guess I'll head down to the local library and do a bit of research. --Brian ^{(How am I doing?)} 05:26, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Has references, fine, but malls are not inherently notable and the article makes no claim to notability. Doesn't pass the WP:CORP test. Fernando Rizo 18:45, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• KEEP This is an important historical building in Grand Forks, North Dakota! --RicKAbbo 20:27, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: "the first enclosed shopping mall built in North Dakota" seems notable enough to me, though perhaps it's marginal. Jonathunder 20:51, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per nom. Edgecution 20:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom is NOT a valid reason. This is not a vote, rather discussion based on research whether or not the article should stay. Delete per nom means nothing. --Brian ^{(How am I doing?)} 22:05, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why not? I agree with the reaon it's nominated. It's a non-notable mall(although very few malls are notable) and I haven't seen a valid reason for why the article should not be deleted. Edgecution 22:08, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep -- I think that many of the "delete" votes come from people who live in places where shopping malls grow like weeds, and thus cannot conceive of why any individual mall would ever be notable. I sympathize, but also recognize that the notability of something depends not just on what it is, but also on where it is. In the case of North Dakota, a large enclosed mall is undoubtably notable, even if it wouldn't be in, say, Phoenix or Los Angeles. Skybum 00:32, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I couldn't have said it better myself. --MatthewUND^(talk) 06:39, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment I'm not ready to change my vote yet (and I think this will be no consensus anyway) but this is finally the first really interesting reason to keep and I'd like to see it expanded upon. Are malls really so rare in the State of North Dakota that the first mall is notable? I have to admit, where I live, in 1 hour's time I could get to 10-12 malls easily. A mall simply is no big deal.--Isotope23 12:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment I'm not voting either way on this (I usually vote to keep malls, but I'm wishy-washy as to this one), but I think this AFD proves we need to have a discussion on shopping mall notability in general. There have been a lot of mall AFDs lately, many of which have been kept either on their own accord or by lack of consensus (see Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Carlingwood_Mall, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mall of Louisiana or Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Oakland_Mall). It is my opinion that WP:LOCAL applies more than WP:CORP here, as most articles don't necessarily pertain as to malls as a business, but rather their status within a community as a landmark, economic power, etc. This places them within the same realm as parks or schools. Kirjtc2 13:58, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Isotope, I guess I should explain. Enclosed malls are not abundent up in North Dakota cities as a whole. Fargo, the biggest city in North Dakota has one...West Acers. Grand Forks, has two (columbia and grand cities), Jamestown has one, and there is one in Bismark, the state capital. Something else to point out is that theses cities are hours apart, making enclosed shopping malls nearly a novelty. Grand Forks and Fargo are 45-50 minutes apart via the interstate highway 29 (which is 75MPH and little traffic). Jamestown - Fargo is +2 Hours and Bismark-Fargo is 4-5 Hours, hence the reason the editors from North Dakota are so against this delete. It's the longest running enclosed mall in a state with so few of them around. I can understand if LA, NYC, Miami, DFW, or KC has 10-40 (or more) enclosed malls within the city (or suburbs) making someone from that area believe enclosed malls are not notable, but from an area where the next closest enclosed mall is a +2 hour drive...the mall would be notable. This mall is notable for the community because it is a 'big deal' for the city. It was the Focal point of the city's shopping economy for decades, and still has drawing power. In a state with a total population of 642,200 people I hope you can see the context, when a city such as LA has a total population of 4,097,340! , --Brian ^{(How am I doing?)} 15:48, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I don't think I can approve of where this sort of reasoning takes us. I have family members who live in rural West Virginia. Up until they got a Wal-Mart last year, they had no shopping of that nature within around an hour of where they lived. Does that mean that the Welch Wal-Mart should have an article because it's a "big deal" to the few people who live in the northern part of McDowell and the southern part of Wyoming counties? I don't think so. Erechtheus 19:25, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment I don't think you can compare a Wal-Mart store to an entire mall. A Wal-Mart, no matter what kind of an impact it has on a local community, is just one store. On the other hand, a mall is more than just a store. In ways, it is almost like an entire neighborhood. The Grand Cities Mall had a major impact on the city of Grand Forks. When it opened, it started the decline of once-bustling downtown Grand Forks. In ways, the mall was a "new downtown". People had never seen anything like it. It seemed huge back then and its opening forever changed the business climate and the landscape of the community. In North Dakota, the opening of a mall is not a regular news item. The opening of this mall was especially noteworthy since it was basically the first mall that anyone had ever seen in this area. --MatthewUND^(talk) 00:56, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per Ogdred. Markovich292 06:02, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, verifiability over notability. --Myles Long 15:47, 18 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per MatthewUND. Strip malls would generally not be notable, but major shopping malls should be; perhaps we need better CORP guidelines or a seperate WP:MALL guideline to handle this. Yamaguchi先生 23:28, 18 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.