This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was no concensus. Editors who feel that this VFD debate was unfair should renominate only after Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/GRider has been concluded, due to possible evidence present. - Mailer Diablo 10:32, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Right off the bat, you can tell this person wasn't a detailist. Second it doesnt acheive any points for BEEFSTEW. Just a non-notable high school with a very common name. -- Riffsyphon1024 03:55, Mar 25, 2005 (UTC)

• GRider has made an attempt at vote-swinging for this nomination [1].
  • While they say that it's not about the votes, unfortunately that is at least part of the basis on which the admins make their decision. Request that all votes by members who have been approached by GRider in this way be discounted and considered as one multiple vote by GRider. Chris 12:31, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
    • Insulting request denied. --Zero 14:26, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• Delete this and also Benjamin Franklin High School, an identical stub by the same IP contributor. Not notable. Jonathunder 04:53, 2005 Mar 25 (UTC)
  • "... it's sports and academic programs are perform rather well." [sic] Oh my! BJAODN?
• Keep, rename, cleanup etc. Enough info about what makes it different from other schools, and necessary to coverage of its local area. Kappa 05:05, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Non-notable high school with a generic name. DaveTheRed 05:35, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• I have also made the correctly spelled article's Vfd link to this one as they are the same. -- Riffsyphon1024 07:00, Mar 25, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Non-notable high school with a generic name. Gamaliel 08:08, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Part vanity school, part vanity rant. BEEFSTEW score of 1 (A). —Korath (Talk) 08:49, Mar 25, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete the incorrectly titled one and turn the correctly titled but vague one into a disambig, with what little useful information there is being transferred to the relevant district article, if anyone can figure out which that one is. (Don't merge with the main Los Angeles or Los Angeles Unified School District articles). See Granada Hills, Los Angeles, California for an example of how I'd personally like it done. Average Earthman 13:01, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Delete both, nn, high-schollcruft. VladMV ٭ ^talk 15:03, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Modified - I removed the POV stuff, and put in the correct template in line with the instructions. Still, delete. Chris 15:25, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Delete If there's nothing notable about the school, I can't see any reason for this article to exist. --GamblinMonkey 15:32, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• For what it's worth, a quick browse shows at least a half dozen Benjamin Franklin High Schools around the country; at best, this should be a disambiguation page. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 17:16, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Delete non-notable schools. -- Jwinters | Talk 17:33, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Keep and allow for organic growth (correct the misspelling). Can anyone tell me if photos hosted on a public school website are in the public domain? I think this photo would make a excellent addition to the article. --GRider\^talk 18:42, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Of course not. Why would you think they'd be PD? Chris 20:48, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
    • Many of the images on Wikipedia are from government-related sources. It was a non-rhetorical question. --GRider\^talk 21:13, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • They're only public domain if explicitly released into it. It's only works of the U.S. federal government, not state or local, that become PD automatically. —Korath (Talk) 20:55, Mar 25, 2005 (UTC)
    • Thank you Korath for your expeditious and polite response! --GRider\^talk 21:15, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Keep all schools are notable.  ALKIVAR™ 21:09, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Keep I've shunted it closer to the correct category. Wincoote 21:14, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. Agree with the rest of the keepers. --Dittaeva 21:32, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Delete there is nothing in this article that convinces me that it is notable, being the largest in its district or named after someone famous are not notable. All the schools I went to were the biggest in their respective areas, even though my primary school only had ~70 pupils. My old upper school is by far the largest and most successful of its district and those surrounding it, its named after royalty and has the remains of a saxon palacem and ruins of a saxon chappel in its grounds, has several famous alumini and it doesn't have an article. Thryduulf 22:12, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Your school not having an article is not a valid reason for deletion of this particular article. --GRider\^talk 22:16, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

    Neither is that a valid counter-argument to the point being made. Chris 00:29, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

    • True, but the point I was making is that my school is more notable than this one, and I don't think it would merit a separate article. If a school with a notability of 5 is not notable enough, why would a school with a notablilty of 1 or 2 be? (arbitrary units). Thryduulf 22:34, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. No potential to become encyclopedic. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:37, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Note that GRider has recently spammed a number of talk pages (including one for a user who's been temporarily banned from VfD) trying to recruit "keep" votes. --Carnildo 23:10, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • That's how I found out about these articles - I happen to have David Gerard's and Iasson's talk pages on my watchlist. I note that he has now also set up User:GRider/Schoolwatch. Thryduulf 23:17, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
    • That is correct, I have initiated a Schoolwatch programme in an effort to help foster the proliferation of better school articles on Wikipedia. With the firm belief that all school articles are encyclopedic, this is a step towards concentrating the efforts of many fellow users. --GRider\^talk 23:25, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
      • Please consider putting Galashiels Academy on your programme. It's in a very unsatisfactory state, and the last attention it got was vandalism (reverted) in November 2004. Dpbsmith (talk) 11:59, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

      With the firm belief that all school articles are encyclopedic Bzzzt! 404 Logic not found. Chris 00:29, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

      • Well, Wikipedia is not a democracy, so having a load of 'me too' votes is not supposed to have an effect anyway.Average Earthman 23:52, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
    • GRider is trying to subvert the VfD process by vote garnering. This should not be allowed. DaveTheRed 03:34, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Notability. Mikkalai 23:37, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• ...is actually rather large compared to others in the district? My, what weasel-wording. Delete. --Calton | Talk 00:30, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Delete, Wikipedia is not a directory. The topic of Horses is encyclopedic, a very few individual horses like Seabiscuit are encyclopedic, most individual horses are not. The topic of High schools is encyclopedic, a very few individual high schools are encyclopedic, most individual high schools are not. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:56, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. All public institutions belong in Wikipedia.--Gene_poole 02:19, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Keep the article and delete this fanatical deletionism. --Zero 02:19, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Keep Contains interesting information - Wikipedia is not paper. --ShaunMacPherson 02:43, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia is not a schools gazeteer. Please also identify which parts of the article you consider "interesting". All I see are location, numbers, and namesake. Chris 12:33, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Note: It appears that User:GRider has contributed a wealth of information to this article between the Vfd and now, thus making it seem more worthy of an article. -- Riffsyphon1024 03:17, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)
  • You sure of that? The article as it stands right now is slightly shorter than the version nominiated for VfD, and contains most of the original information. --Carnildo 03:30, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
    • You're right, it was simply a bunch of edits by him. But my vote remains the same. -- Riffsyphon1024 04:24, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)
• Keep article but send redirect link to RfD. Article has potential to become more encyclopedic. --Andylkl ^(talk) 04:12, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete per Dpbsmith's arguments. Not all public institutions and certainly not all schools are automatically encyclopedia-worthy. Rossami (talk) 07:25, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Delete schools don't belong unless they're noteworthy... imagine the disambig pages for common names (Franklin, Jefferson, etc). Feco 08:17, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Keep the Franklin High School article, delete the redirect. —RaD Man (talk) 08:20, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Delete, concur with DPbsmith. Radiant_* 08:59, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, WINP. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 09:19, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia is also not a schools prospectus. Chris 12:31, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. How does this school distinguish itself from the many other Benjamin Franklin schools across the nation, let alone from the rest of secondary education facilities period? Arkyan 12:00, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment Agreeing with this. Why is it that people seem to think that schools don't have to prove their worth to be included when everything else does? Human settlements are the one exception to prove the rule, for obvious reasons. Chris 13:23, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Keep Funny, I don't think human settlements are obvious keeps. I've put some thought into reasons for keeping schools. Feel free to disagree.  The Steve  15:44, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)
• Keep and improve. If the existence of the school is not disputed, then there is no reason that this is not a valid article topic. Notability is subjective, but schools with more than a few students should automatically pass the test. Wiki is not paper. Someone please wake me up when there is finally a policy vote about keeping school articles. ~leif ☺ _HELO 20:30, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete not notable. CDC (talk) 01:10, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Delete, for reasons stated. Slac speak up! 07:46, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Delete Not notable. Mandel 19:05, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. No content. --L33tminion | (talk) 00:50, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. High schools are verifiable. - SimonP 04:28, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. This pointless anti-schoool vendetta is becoming quite tiresome. All schools are public institutions, and all public institutions and facilities are notable by definition. That's right - all public institutions and facilities.--Centauri 06:34, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Re "by definition": Since you say "by definition," it's reasonable to ask: where do you find that "definition?" Dpbsmith (talk) 10:32, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Re "vendetta:" you use that word. I wish you wouldn't, as I don't think there is one. I stand subject to correction on this, particularly by SimonP, but I have never been aware of anyone who thinks all high schools should be deleted, and I have never been aware of any organized campaign against them. If there is one, I'm sure out of the loop, because I have never received a message advising me of any school votes in progress. (And for the record, I hope I never do). Last year, at Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/High_schools, I tried to track every school article that was created for a bit more than a month, just to see what really happens. What I found was that

a) school articles are created at a very slow pace, slower than one per day. At that rate of creation, even if you make reasonable projections of growth, there is no credible prospect that U. S. high schools will get comprehensive coverage, comparable to sites like www.greatschools.net or to our (controversial!) Rambot town articles, in the foreseeable future.

b) I saw no evidence of any systematic attempt to delete schools. Many high school articles--generally the ones that would have had decent BEEFSTEW scores if anyone bothered to score them--sailed right in without getting nominated for deletion.

c) If there were a "vendetta," the section of the list headed "School articles created in November that have not been listed on VfD" might well have been like waving a red flag at a bull and been treated as a "hit list." It wasn't.

d) Generally, it appears to be only the very-low-quality school articles that get nominated for VfD.

e) Statement that "it's a waste of time listing these on VfD because they never get deleted" are incorrect. Many of the really bad substubs do get voted for deletion. Some do however get kept for various reasons, including some degree of improvement during the VfD comment period.

Once again, subject to correction if anyone know more history on this than I'm aware of. Dpbsmith (talk) 10:59, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• Delete: Nothing notable. Saopaulo1 07:02, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
• Keep and improve.--BaronLarf 21:22, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete all non-notable high schools. That is to say, most of them. Denni☯ 02:59, 2005 Mar 29 (UTC)
• Keep. I agree with Kappa, ShaunMacPherson, Thesteve and others. Samaritan 03:17, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. See my points at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Any policy regarding school articles?. -- Toytoy 04:39, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Another non-notable school. --G Rutter 12:24, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. High schools are inherently nonencyclopedic. --Angr 12:52, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Delete -- until a consistent policy is made on how to document every single high school, we shouldn't be doing this piecemeal. Joshuaschroeder 06:50, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. --Daniel C. Boyer 20:20, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Notability not established. Indrian 21:41, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
• Keep I think any Wiki contributor should tolerate any objection other than 'not notable'. Especially in context of a high school which is an institution of public record. The 'not notable' crowd have a really contrived idea about what Wikipedia should be, and it's silly. Obscure entries are *exactly* what make this a useful resource. Not "what everybody already knows" Sniffandgrowl 00:32, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • User was created today; he has only two edits not to vfds, one of them to his user page. —Korath (Talk) 02:24, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.