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:A Wikipedia article can't be a source for a Wikipedia article, and nor can your personal knowledge, {{u|Baba Mica}}. Please see [[WP:RS]]. [[User:Cordless Larry|Cordless Larry]] ([[User talk:Cordless Larry#top|talk]]) 21:02, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
:A Wikipedia article can't be a source for a Wikipedia article, and nor can your personal knowledge, {{u|Baba Mica}}. Please see [[WP:RS]]. [[User:Cordless Larry|Cordless Larry]] ([[User talk:Cordless Larry#top|talk]]) 21:02, 3 August 2017 (UTC)


February 28 is the last day of February. Of course the next day is March 1. The February 28th event in the village of Donje Likošane was the first major armed conflict in Kosovo and Metohija since the end of the Second World War. As always, firing machine guns began, and the epilogue was a mortar fire. In addition to all this, I take into account that that day Slobodan Milosevic ordered an anti-terrorist operation that was not far from the military offensive. On February 28, for the first time, the first frontal clashes between the UCK and the Serbian gendarmerie occurred. The offensive to Donji Prekaz village was using artillery for the first time in the Kosovo war. Therefore, as the optimal date for the commencement of the entire war, I take February 28, 1998. Ramush Haradinaj in his memoirs mentioned that the KLA units were preparing for an armed rebellion on March 1st, in large proportions, in January 1998. But the day before Adem Jashari and his group suddenly faced a police patrol sent to arrest him for a number of diversions and partisan attacks from 1995/1996. Of course, it did not come to his mind to surrender without a fight and there was a clash with the most dead Serbian policemen until then. Serbia launched a total frontal offensive against the Jashari group and joined the army. After a three-day exchange of fire in the village of Donji Prekaz, the Serb security forces entered Donji Prekaz and surrounded Jashari who refused to surrender and fight until the death of March 6th.--[[User:Baba Mica|Baba Mica]] ([[User talk:Baba Mica|talk]]) 13:13, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
Ask the Albanians (members of the KLA) and former members of the Serbian police. I will find. I am from the Balkans and I know both Albanians and Serbs. I was a witness.--[[User:Baba Mica|Baba Mica]] ([[User talk:Baba Mica|talk]]) 21:05, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
Ask the Albanians (members of the KLA) and former members of the Serbian police. I will find. I am from the Balkans and I know both Albanians and Serbs. I was a witness.--[[User:Baba Mica|Baba Mica]] ([[User talk:Baba Mica|talk]]) 21:05, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
:I realise that there was violence in February, but that does not necessarily mean that is when the war is widely considered to have started. [[User:Cordless Larry|Cordless Larry]] ([[User talk:Cordless Larry#top|talk]]) 21:06, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
:I realise that there was violence in February, but that does not necessarily mean that is when the war is widely considered to have started. [[User:Cordless Larry|Cordless Larry]] ([[User talk:Cordless Larry#top|talk]]) 21:06, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Revision as of 13:13, 4 August 2017

Semi-protected edit request on 2 February 2017

{{subst:trim|


| combatant1 = Kosovo Liberation Army KLA
Mujahideen

{{Collapsible list

A small addition needs to be made. In the combatants table, the Mujahideen flag needs to be added. According to the July 18, 1998 Albanian–Yugoslav border clashes page, Mujahideen fighters took part in the Kosovo War.

}} TryDeletingMe (talk) 07:30, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The border incident article does not actually say that "Mujahideen fighters took part in the Kosovo War", so we need RS, preferably with numbers and this needs to go into the text before we would add any flag or text to the info box. The presence on another article of a similar assertion is not sufficient to include here.

BTW, the border incident article seems to be unclear about what it means by "Mujahideen", the usual meaning in the 'Yugoslav' context is fighters from (distant) Islamic countries, mainly Arab ones. The border incident article says:

Serb sources assert that the first mujahideen began arriving in Kosovo in the spring of 1998, mainly from Bosnia and Herzegovina. By that summer, about 240 mujahideen were present in Kosovo and northern Albania. Most of these were ethnic Albanians, but the group also included several dozen Arabs from the Middle East and North Africa.

I'm unclear who are meant by 'mujahideen' if they are ethnic Albanians. Pincrete (talk) 16:16, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It is refered to the ethnic Albanians and Arabs from Middle East and North Africa that fought in Mujahideen units in Bosnian War. FkpCascais (talk) 17:56, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I kind of guessed that, but wonder whether the meaning would be clear to most Eng readers, to whom the term primarily refers to Afghanistan, and more recently to foreign Muslim fighters in other conflicts. Pincrete (talk) 19:36, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template.  B E C K Y S A Y L E S  06:06, 3 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

International Responses

For anyone interested in adding more detail to the section on international responses to the conflict, an article from the Washington Institute on the Iranian reaction is available here. It might be best summed up as follows:

'Following the initial Serb moves against Kosovo in 1998, the Iranian press called for cooperation with the West in order to safeguard the rights of Kosovar Muslims. However, by the time of the Rambouillet Conference a year later, official Iranian media claimed that the situation had to be solved by the UN, and preemptively condemned NATO intervention. Once airstrikes against Serbia started, these were described by Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei as part a plot which sought ‘annihilation of the Muslims in Europe’.'

The Iraqi response to the conflict is also shown in a BBC article here, which quotes the Iraqi description of NATO intervention as 'brutal aggression'.

Furthermore, the attribution of the 'humanitarian bombing' quote to Václav Havel in the Czech response section is one which the Wikipedia article on the subject suggests is erroneous. The articles used to prove this on the page are unfortunately in Czech - but perhaps someone might be able to clear up this internal discrepancy?

An article by Nicholas Rees in the journal Irish Studies in International Affairs also describes Ireland's reaction to NATO intervention. On page 67, he mentions that polls showed the Irish public to be split on the issue - with 46% supporting and 42% opposing the bombings. Michael Smith, at the time Ireland's Minister of Defence, is also quoted as saying that the Kosovar conflict was 'totally outside of our control' - indicating that the Irish government neither supported nor condemned the intervention.

Finally, if the countries are to be listed in alphabetical order - might it be possible for someone to place the Czech Republic and Bulgaria in their appropriate positions?

Lets not forget the Turks response too of both society (strong support) and the kemalist government who wavered at first and then went with the Turkish populations sentiment. There is a fair amount of info out there on that too.Resnjari (talk) 16:06, 11 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed the Havel claim, since although he was in favour of intervention, it seems he didn't use that phrase. I wonder if it would be better to move the whole 'reactions' section to the bombing article, since these are all reactions to intervention, not to the war itself, and keep here only a sentence or two. It might be a good idea to have Europe non-alphabetical (involved countries, then non-involved), but present order appears random I agree. 'Reactions' are inevitably summaries of official and public positions, but agree, other countries could be added.Pincrete (talk) 18:16, 11 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Just to note that whilst many countries' responses are still missing, including some NATO and 'local' countries, the article is currently 185Kb long, which is double the recommended maximum length. Moving the responses to the 'NATO bombing' article also isn't an option, since that is also overlong.
Time for a 'split-out' of this section and most of the content relating to the bombing? Pincrete (talk) 17:09, 16 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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The article falsely represents Rambouillet Treaty Appendix B as being insignificant, when it was the war-forcing device.

"Although the Yugoslav government cited military provisions of Appendix B of the Rambouillet provisions as the reason for its objections, claiming that it was an unacceptable violation of Yugoslavia's sovereignty, these provisions were essentially the same as had been applied to Bosnia for the SFOR (Stabilisation Force) mission there after the Dayton Agreement in 1995."

... and it cites the British Parliament's (Blair government's) The Kosovo Crisis after 1997, which was never of course going to be an objective, honest source.

This is utterly false and was a proven-false argument at the time to try to cover up how Appendix B forced the war on the Serbs. This *should* read:

"The Yugoslav government correctly read the Rambouillet Treaty's Appendix B's unrestricting occupation provisions as applying to all Yugoslavia and amounting to an unconditional occupation - surrender - of Serbia as well. This was verified by former U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger in his 31 May 1999 Newsweek magazine article 'New World Disorder,' wherein he described Rambouillet being 'not a negotiation--as is often claimed--but an ultimatum.'"

Sources:

Already in External Links is my 14May99 H-Diplo posting in American academia, whistle-blowing Appendix B. Here are pertinent excerpts of the discussion which followed:

From: Peter Winters <winters@patrol.i-way.co.uk> List Editor: H-DIPLO--Marcsisin <hdiplo@YorkU.CA> Editor's Subject: Rambouillet Treaty Appendix B [Winters] Author's Subject: Rambouillet Treaty Appendix B [Winters] Date Written: Tue, 25 May 1999 16:08:38 -0400 Date Posted: Wed, 25 May 1999 16:08:38 -0400

Eduard Mark insists that Appendix B to the Ramboulliet Agreement is "an absolutely conventional statement of rights of transit. .. a similar (to the) statement present in the Dayton Agreement."

Jamie Shea at the 26/4/99 Nato briefing also suggested that Appendix B was copied from Dayton.

However : Article VI : 9a of Dayton reads: .... Air and surface movements in Bosnia and Herzegovina shall be governed by the following provisions: The IFOR shall have complete and unimpeded freedom of movement by ground, air, and water throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina. It shall have the right to bivouac, maneuver, billet, and utilize any areas or facilities to carry out its responsibilities as required for its support, training, and operations, with such advance notice as may be practicable. The IFOR and its personnel shall not be liable for any damages to civilian or government property caused by combat or combat related activities. Roadblocks, checkpoints or other impediments to IFOR freedom of movement shall constitute a breach of this Annex and the violating Party shall be subject to military action by the IFOR, including the use of necessary force to ensure compliance with this Annex.

This is not as strong as the Rambouillet Treaty Appendix B and, more importantly, it only covers Bosnia and Herzegovina and not the FRY. Maybe I have missed a section but I would be grateful if somebody would point out that part of Dayton which gives IFOR the same rights over the FRY as Rambouillet Appendix B aspired to. Peter Winters


From: colin s. cavell <cscpo@polsci.umass.edu> List Editor: "H-DIPLO [Labrosse]" <hdiplo@YorkU.CA> Editor's Subject: The Rambouillet Diktat [Cavell] Author's Subject: The Rambouillet Diktat [Cavell] Date Written: Fri, 28 May 1999 23:23:01 -0400 Date Posted: Sat, 28 May 1999 23:23:01 -0400

In his "New World Disorder" article in Newsweek magazine, International Edition, issue of May 31, 1999, none other than U.S. veteran diplomat Henry Kissinger clarifies the truth about the Rambouillet diktat which so many on the H-Diplo list have tried, but failed, to say it doesn't say what it does say. States Kissinger: "Rambouillet was not a negotiation--as is often claimed--but an ultimatum. This marked an astounding departure for an administration that had entered office proclaiming its devotion to the U.N. Charter and multilateral procedures. The transformation of the Alliance from a defensive military grouping into an institution prepared to impose its values by force occurred in the same months that three former Soviet satellites joined NATO. It undercut repeated American and allied assurances that Russia had nothing to fear from NATO expansion, since the Alliance's own treaty proclaimed it to be a purely defensive institution." Colin S. Cavell University of Massachusetts Department of Political Science


From: A. Tom Grunfeld <tgrunfeld@sescva.esc.edu> List Editor: "H-DIPLO [Labrosse]" <hdiplo@YorkU.CA> Editor's Subject: Appendix B [Grunfeld] Author's Subject: Appendix B [Grunfeld] Date Written: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 16:42:57 -0400 Date Posted: Wed, 08 Jun 1999 16:42:57 -0400

Several weeks ago there was some discussion about the meaning of Appendix B of the Rambouillet "agreeement." The split, as I remember it, was one group arguing that it made a peaceful solution to Kosovo impossible while others argued that the language was almost boiler plate and nothing which should make the Serbs anxious.

So it was with some interest that I read Steven Erlanger in the NYTimes, (June 5th , p.A5) citing "senior Yugolsav officials," reporting that 

       "...the key part of the [the current] proposal that made it acceptible

to Belgrade, the officials said, was the limitaion on the movement of the international forces...under a United Nations flag, to Kosovo itself. 

       "Under the annex of the Ramouillet accord, a purely NATO force was to

be given full permission to go anywhere in Yugoslavia, immune from any legal process." Over the weekend I caught a former Information Minister of the FRY saying the very same thing on CNN. A. Tom Grunfeld SUNY/Empire State College — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lou Coatney (talk • contribs) 19:01, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Start of war

Cordless Larry,Baba Mica I'm copying this discussion here, so that other page watchers can join in.Pincrete (talk) 23:20, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Kosovo war began on February 28th, 1998, when the first large KLA clash (under the command of Adem Jashari) and the Yugoslav police near the village of Drenica occurred. Albanians celebrate February 28th as the beginning of the uprising in Kosovo. Then, the Serbian police started the same day offensive against the village of Donji Prekaz and surrounded the house of Adem Jashari where violent clashes took place from March 3rd to 6th. By March 5, negotiations were tried, but the Albanians refused to surrender and opened fire on the police in an attempt to break the siege. The police opened fire and settled the house with the land and killed the whole family.--Baba Mica (talk) 20:54, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You'll need to cite reliable sources for this, Baba Mica, not Pinterest. I've had a look for sources for both dates and they are sparse, so we should probably discuss this on the article's talk page. Pinging Pincrete for input. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:57, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Kosovo war began on February 28th, 1998, when the first large KLA clash (under the command of Adem Jashari) and the Yugoslav police near the village of Drenica occurred. Albanians celebrate February 28th as the beginning of the uprising in Kosovo. Then, the Serbian police started the same day offensive against the village of Donji Prekaz and surrounded the house of Adem Jashari where violent clashes took place from March 3rd to 6th. By March 5, negotiations were tried, but the Albanians refused to surrender and opened fire on the police in an attempt to break the siege. The police opened fire and settled the house with the land and killed the whole family.--Baba Mica (talk) 20:59, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Kosovo_War --Baba Mica (talk) 20:59, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I know more details.--Baba Mica (talk) 21:00, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A Wikipedia article can't be a source for a Wikipedia article, and nor can your personal knowledge, Baba Mica. Please see WP:RS. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:02, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

February 28 is the last day of February. Of course the next day is March 1. The February 28th event in the village of Donje Likošane was the first major armed conflict in Kosovo and Metohija since the end of the Second World War. As always, firing machine guns began, and the epilogue was a mortar fire. In addition to all this, I take into account that that day Slobodan Milosevic ordered an anti-terrorist operation that was not far from the military offensive. On February 28, for the first time, the first frontal clashes between the UCK and the Serbian gendarmerie occurred. The offensive to Donji Prekaz village was using artillery for the first time in the Kosovo war. Therefore, as the optimal date for the commencement of the entire war, I take February 28, 1998. Ramush Haradinaj in his memoirs mentioned that the KLA units were preparing for an armed rebellion on March 1st, in large proportions, in January 1998. But the day before Adem Jashari and his group suddenly faced a police patrol sent to arrest him for a number of diversions and partisan attacks from 1995/1996. Of course, it did not come to his mind to surrender without a fight and there was a clash with the most dead Serbian policemen until then. Serbia launched a total frontal offensive against the Jashari group and joined the army. After a three-day exchange of fire in the village of Donji Prekaz, the Serb security forces entered Donji Prekaz and surrounded Jashari who refused to surrender and fight until the death of March 6th.--Baba Mica (talk) 13:13, 4 August 2017 (UTC) Ask the Albanians (members of the KLA) and former members of the Serbian police. I will find. I am from the Balkans and I know both Albanians and Serbs. I was a witness.--Baba Mica (talk) 21:05, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I realise that there was violence in February, but that does not necessarily mean that is when the war is widely considered to have started. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:06, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Here, the Americans are the most reliable source: https://www.hrw.org/legacy/campaigns/kosovo98/timeline.shtml --Baba Mica (talk) 21:10, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That timeline doesn't give a clear start date to the conflict. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:11, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that that hrw is ambiguous, would text explaining the 'escalating situation' work? Pincrete (talk) 23:22, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly, yes. I have looked for sources and there are very few clearly stating "The Kosovo War started on [date]" or something similar (that includes the source presently being cited for 5 March). I think we should perhaps avoid giving a specific date and instead use "February/March" in the infobox. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:09, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That was what a quick look at the sources led me to conclude, I removed hrw, only for 'speed', but it itself supports an 'escalating tensions' scenarion. Pincrete (talk) 08:23, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Moved from user talk

What is a stable version? What are you talking about? And Larry agreed with me, and You're doing something here. I left those four sources, and you are returning an old and not reliable source. Albanians celebrate February 28 as the day of the uprising against the Serbian authorities because on that day began organized attacks under the command of Adem Jashari. The United States has reliable sources because it has controlled the entire situation on the ground from the very beginning. A major conflict between Albanians and the Serbian gendarmerie broke out on February 28, 1998, when groups under the command of Adem Jashari attacked the police patrol in Donji Likosan, in order to confiscate the area of ethnic Albanians from the Serbian police. After great losses, the Serbian authorities and Slobodan Milosevic as the supreme military commander launched the same day the army and paramilitary formations and organized an offensive against the ethnic Albanian village Donji Prekaz. This village is the birthplace of Adem Jashari, who with his smaller group led guerrilla fighting with far more numerous police, military and paramilitary formations. On March 3rd, the Serb forces pushed Jashari's well-armed group down to his house leaving ruins in mortar fire. Serbian authorities gave Jashari to surrender in 48 hours together with family members. Jashari refused and decided on March 5th to launch a counter attack when the Serbian deadline for the surrender expired. He tried to break through the blockade, but Serb forces used artillery and rocket launchers. On the morning of March 6, 1998, Jashari's house was compared to the land, and Adem Jashari and 45 family members and wider relatives were killed. So it was not rebellion that caused the death of Jashari, but Adem Jashari rebelled in order to force the Serbian authorities to release from the prison of Albanian political prisoners. Here is a Serb policeman to whom the Albanian rebels intercepted a patrol in the village of Likosane on February 28, 1998, who survived the wounding of several bullets.

Montenegrin source of information:

http://www.nezavisne.com/novosti/ex-yu/Zandarm-pogodjen-sa-7-metaka-na-Kosovu-docekao-penziju/357725--Baba Mica (talk) 10:48, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

American sources:

https://www.hrw.org/legacy/campaigns/kosovo98/timeline.shtml

A far more reliable source than Larry.--Baba Mica (talk) 10:48, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Baba Mica One of the sources you used previously is in fact a 'mirror' of WP, though you presented it as being PBS. The hrw confirms that a 'start date' is unclear, but it doesn't confirm a 28 Feb start. However the proper place for this discussion is the article talk, please continue the discussion there. Larry and I are already of the opinion that an 'open-ended' text might be appropriate (ie late Feb early March). Pincrete (talk) 11:13, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Please also take care not to do things like this when editing, Baba Mica. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:33, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
allikas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special%3ADiff%2F793870846