The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Spartaz ^Humbug! 10:21, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Jesse Stay (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log) • Afd statistics

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Recreated A7. Doesn't meet Wikipedia standards for WP:BIO. Orphan. Creator (the subject's grandson) removed notability tag rather than improving article, so I assume that this is as good as it's going to get. If it does meet BIO, I'd like someone to write an article about my grandfather. THF (talk) 10:34, 17 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete it's always sad when a close relative dies, but Wikipedia is not a memorial. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 16:27, 17 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 17:02, 17 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 17:02, 17 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete: fails WP:MILPEOPLE and the WP:GNG, as well as my own standards. bahamut0013^words_deeds 20:24, 17 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I disagree - he played a significant role in Wake Island, and if you give me time I can provide additional secondary sources for this (see his Bio, as well as the BYU documentation stating his honors) - see #5 - "Played an important role in a significant military event". In addition, he was seen as an expert by his peers in military matters. He, just before his death Foreworded a book about one of his peers in his Pacific bombing squadron - I can provide links to that as well. Jesse Stay (talk) 18:32, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. Read some of the newspaper clippings here for more information on his accomplishments during Wake Island - I'll see if I can find the newspapers and dates those were recorded: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=21038875112&set=a.18722195112.38309.683545112 Jesse Stay (talk) 19:52, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. He also commanded one of the very first Parachute landings - see this newspaper article here: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=21038585112&set=a.18722190112.38308.683545112 Jesse Stay (talk) 20:27, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. Also from his letter awarding him one of his Distinguished Flying Crosses: "In the face of heavy antiaircraft fire and strong enemy fighter opposition, First Lieutenant Stay skillfully led his squadron of heavy bombers over the targets on Wake in a successful attack which resulted in extensive damage to Japanese material and personnel. His courageous leadership and devotion to duty were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Armed Forces." - see http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=21038595112&set=a.18722190112.38308.683545112&pid=858911&id=683545112 Jesse Stay (talk) 20:27, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. From this article, "Organizer of Air Force ROTC" - http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=21038775112&set=a.18722190112.38308.683545112 Jesse Stay (talk) 20:27, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. Another article on Jesse Stay being the first Commanding Officer of BYU Air Force ROTC: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=21038780112&set=a.18722190112.38308.683545112&pid=858966&id=683545112 Jesse Stay (talk) 20:27, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. More on Jesse Stay being respected by his peers - see the comments about him in this article: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=21038820112&set=a.18722190112.38308.683545112 Jesse Stay (talk) 20:27, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. Here's an article showing him getting the Distinguished Flying Cross: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=21038545112&set=a.18722185112.38307.683545112 Jesse Stay (talk) 20:27, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. He's also quoted numerous times in this book: "Unbroken: A World War II Story of Survival, Resilience, andRedemption", By Laura Hillenbrand http://books.google.com/books?id=injpY-EerZgC&pg=PT538&dq=%22jesse+stay%22+-%22jesse+stay'd%22+-%22jesse+stay+where%22+-%22jesse+stay+here%22+-%22jesse+stay+there%22+-facebook+-%22jesse+stay+with%22+-%22jesse+stay+in%22&hl=en&ei=WSboTJ6TE8HLnAf9trXzDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=book-preview-link&resnum=7&ved=0CE0QuwUwBg#v=onepage&q=%22jesse%20stay%22&f=false Jesse Stay (talk) 20:51, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. Also more in this book: "11th Bomb Group (H): The Gray Goose", By Turner Publishing Company, Turner Publishing http://books.google.com/books?id=Gbtu8yLAIncC&pg=PA73&dq=%22jesse+stay%22+-%22jesse+stay'd%22+-%22jesse+stay+where%22+-%22jesse+stay+here%22+-%22jesse+stay+there%22+-facebook+-%22jesse+stay+with%22+-%22jesse+stay+in%22&hl=en&ei=bSboTOjLAs3PngfWqvWFDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=%22jesse%20stay%22%20-%22jesse%20stay'd%22%20-%22jesse%20stay%20where%22%20-%22jesse%20stay%20here%22%20-%22jesse%20stay%20there%22%20-facebook%20-%22jesse%20stay%20with%22%20-%22jesse%20stay%20in%22&f=false Jesse Stay (talk) 20:51, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

DFCs are not enough, and his service in WWII is not distinguished enough for our criterion (simply participating in a abttle is not enough, and there is no evidence that he commanded a "sizable body of troops" in a battle). And ROTC? You've got to be joking. bahamut0013^words_deeds 20:48, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I feel like there is an agenda here by you to get this removed. What part of "First Lieutenant Stay skillfully led his squadron of heavy bombers over the targets on Wake in a successful attack" is he *not* leading a sizable body of troops in a battle? And what about his involvement in the dugway_sheep_incident as Air Force Press Officer as the man that commissioned the report that is so controversial? Jesse Stay (talk) 22:13, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. Based on the evidence presented, Mr. Stay may not meet the usual notability standards in force here. I agree that his military bio (as presented here) is not "notable". The issue is not quite as clear with respect to his role in Mormon cinema. The source material presented for this subject [1][2] is actually quite interesting (although not much of it is actually about Jesse Stay). Whether or not his bio article stays, these contributions could be profitably utilized to improve the existing stub article LDS Motion Picture Studios as well as the larger article LDS cinema and/or other articles within Category:Latter Day Saint cinema.--Arxiloxos (talk) 22:15, 17 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. "Not much of it is actually about Jesse Stay" - there's an entire chapter devoted to him in the History of Mormon Cinema article. I'm not sure how that can be defined as "not much". Jesse Stay (talk) 19:29, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. Here's a picture of Jesse Stay with Ernest Wilkinson, President of BYU at the time he was over the BYU Motion Picture Studio: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=21038865112&set=a.18722195112.38309.683545112&pid=858983&id=683545112 Jesse Stay (talk) 20:27, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. Here's Jesse Stay's letter from Dallin H. Oaks, appointing him as Director of BYU Motion Picture Studios: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=21038710112&set=a.18722190112.38308.683545112 Jesse Stay (talk) 20:27, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. Another article on Stay being appointed Director of BYU Motion Picture Studios - lots of other supporting information as well (including him being a former Pentagon PR Officer): http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=21038330112&set=a.18722185112.38307.683545112 Jesse Stay (talk) 20:27, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. More on the awards he won for his films, and more films he produced: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=21038455112&set=a.18722185112.38307.683545112 Jesse Stay (talk) 20:27, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. I would not object to a userfy and merge to a larger LDS cinema filmmakers article. THF (talk) 22:36, 17 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Utah-related deletion discussions. --Arxiloxos (talk) 22:15, 17 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• This AfD has been listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement.--Arxiloxos (talk) 22:15, 17 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• I am the grandson who wrote the article - I only removed the notability tag because no one was specifying why it wasn't notable (the discussion for that page only has my comments if you look). If you need more second-hand sources, we can get this. This is more than just me memorializing my Grandfather. He had a notable place in Mormon cinema, and also was a key player in the Wake Island bombings and other elements of the Pacific war (as evidenced by the Medals he won, which I can also get more documentation on). I can provide second-hand sources for that - I just need time to gather my material. I also think him starting the BYU Air Force ROTC was also interesting, and can also be backed up with second-hand material. I haven't done this with any other of my relatives - I only create this because I think he is very notable, and others would find it very interesting to learn about his life. I'd hate to see an interesting article like this removed despite the references already provided. Jesse Stay (talk) 18:23, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• I should add that I'm new to adding articles on Wikipedia. If every experience is as difficult as this, it's no wonder Jimmy Wales is begging for money. Jesse Stay (talk) 18:27, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Also note there is a very similar article for Judge Whitaker here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge_Whitaker - it was that article that made me think Wikipedia needed an article for Jesse Stay, who was just as notable. Jesse Stay (talk) 18:27, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• (again, not sure why this conversation isn't happening on the conversation tab of the article) - more notability about Jesse Stay - he served as a PR rep for the Air Force at the Pentagon, and played a large part in both the Dugway_sheep_incident and the Air Force's discontinuance of its UFO task force. This book has a lot of data about that: http://www.sacred-texts.com/ufo/fsar/fsar18.htm - I'm looking around for secondary sources on his role at Dugway, as well as more on the UFO Task Force. Jesse Stay (talk) 19:37, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Jesse Stay was also a member of the Sunday School General Board for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - see this article: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=21038815112&set=a.18722190112.38308.683545112 Jesse Stay (talk) 20:27, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.