Browse history interactively
← Previous editNext edit →
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
Line 258: Line 258:


::::IMO we should use both Synder and the College of Education of the University of South Florida. They are in agreement on the figure of 11 million and the University of South Florida. has a detailed explanation on their webpage. In any case Synder has his critics in the academic world, his word is not gospel--[[User:Woogie10w|Woogie10w]] ([[User talk:Woogie10w|talk]]) 23:16, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
::::IMO we should use both Synder and the College of Education of the University of South Florida. They are in agreement on the figure of 11 million and the University of South Florida. has a detailed explanation on their webpage. In any case Synder has his critics in the academic world, his word is not gospel--[[User:Woogie10w|Woogie10w]] ([[User talk:Woogie10w|talk]]) 23:16, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

:::I avoid editing this page because I believe that the Holocaust was the genocide of the Jews alone. Thanks to Jimmy Carter Poles and Ukrainians were included. It was smart politics in 1980 but real dumb history. --[[User:Woogie10w|Woogie10w]] ([[User talk:Woogie10w|talk]]) 23:22, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Revision as of 23:22, 14 February 2017

Template:Vital article

Former good article nomineeThe Holocaust was a History good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
March 9, 2005Featured article candidateNot promoted
January 19, 2006Good article nomineeListed
July 5, 2006Good article reassessmentKept
November 16, 2006Featured article candidateNot promoted
May 3, 2007Good article reassessmentDelisted
June 11, 2007Peer reviewReviewed
October 3, 2007Good article nomineeNot listed
Current status: Former good article nominee

Template:WP1.0

Edit request: Uniqueness question section type

In the quote at the bottom, "worldenemy" should be two words;

"in Holocaust scholarship" would be better written as "among Holocaust scholars" 69.165.196.103 (talk) 04:39, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

11 Million?

Sorry but I have a real problem with listing the number of Jews killed as 6 million - 11 million, 11 million is a preposterous number with very little scientific evidence to back it up. The number is obviously very hard to pin point but scientists have collectively agreed to estimate it as 6 million, having as 6-11 million is very misleading and false. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stormingsheep (talk • contribs) 14:54, 18 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The number 11 million is only used if one includes Hitler's non-Jewish victims, which the article notes is controversial. -Ad Orientem (talk) 14:59, 18 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
My 2 cents: saying that the Holocaust only caused the death of 6 million persons would be false - It is true that the main target were Jews, but the Holocaust wasn't only about them, it was also about other minorities, and therefore not talking about them would be some kind of slight POV pushing, equivalent to saying "The Holocaust is only about Jews"... 69.165.196.103 (talk) 17:31, 28 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

MORE THAN 11 MILLIONS

SHOAH – The process of a racist antisemitic war Avner Shalev, Director of Yad Vashem (the Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Authority in Jerusalem, the world center for documentation, research, and education of the Holocaust), used the word Shoah” for the Nazi murderous war only against the Jews, when, in June 2013, at the opening of Yad Vashem’s exhibit at the Jewish Holocaust Museum at Auschwitz, he stated: The Holocaust of the Jewish people, Shoah, the attempt to annihilate the Jewish people. … racist ideology … was the main driving force behind the destruction of the Jewish people.

Shalev does not use the word “Holocaust,”

It should be noted that many scholars and teachers, especially in Europe, now use the specific term Shoah for the persecution and murder of six million Jews. For example, in Germany the term Shoah is only used to refer to the genocide of Jews under the Nazis, whereas Holocaust includes other victim groups, too.

The most tragic result of the Shoah was the destruction of two thirds of European Jewry, one third of the Jewish people, their culture and way of life gone forever. “The twelve years of the Nazi regime, from its rise in 1933 to its demise in 1945, represent the most tragic era in Jewish history. … Of the total world Jewish population of eighteen million in 1939, one in three had been killed.” (Gutman, Yisrael at Yad Vashem, ed. Encyclopedia of the Holocaust. 4 vols. New York: Macmillan, 1990; p. 666).


HOLOCAUST – The process of a racist, exclusive, and ideological war “The Holocaust is an extreme example of the context of despair. It was motivated by a murderous ideology.” http://www.manskligarattigheter.gov.se/stockholmforum/2000/page898.html Nazism or National Socialism was the ideology behind the Holocaust. Therefore, the racist national domestic, and international goals of the main perpetrator, Nazi Germany led by Hitler, and the characteristics of Nazism determined the definition of the Holocaust and its victims.” Y. Bauer, Rethinking the Holocaust. “Holocaust” refers, not to an event, but to the geo-political process of the war against the Jews and others/ undesirable groups/non-Jews - “The Holocaust was the murder of six million Jews and millions of others by the Nazis and their collaborators during World War II. … By war's end, almost six million Jews and millions of others had perished in the Holocaust” (the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (ushmm). Elie Wiesel appropriately declared: “Not all the victims of the Holocaust were Jews, but all Jews were victims. Conclusion, it is best when referencing the total number of victims of the Holocaust to say 6 million Jews and millions of others. All Holocaust organizations are making a united move to adhere to this message.” Indeed, as per the historical record, the Holocaust was an ideological murderous process and war against all the Jews and other “Undesirables,” by a barbaric regime bent on an ‘Aryan’ world domination and a racial utopia. “The Nazis pursued a strategic vision of a dominant German race ruling subject peoples” (ushmm). Professor Saul Friedlander at UCLA, correctly stated: National Socialism/Nazism tried to determine who should and should not inhabit the world. Yehuda Bauer, academic advisor at Yad Vashem, its former Director, and a most respected authority on the subjects of the Holocaust, explained: the Holocaust {was} a defining moment in European and world history. … Nazism did not just inflict horrendous suffering on many millions of people, but it proposed to reorganize humanity according to race, all over the globe, and that ideology, did and does not endanger the Jews only. That global project of Nazi Germany's new world order demanded "Aryanization," enslavement and annihilation of Jews, Christians and "Undesirables" (“threats” or enemies of the German state such as political and religious dissidents, Afro-Germans, Roma-Sinti/Gypsies, the physically and mentally challenged, homosexuals, Jehovah’s Witnesses, some of the Slavic peoples - Catholic Poles, Russians, Soviet prisoners of war-, Jewish and African American POWS, and others), who were targeted by the Nazi regime and its collaborators between the years of 1933-1945 for religious, racial, political, ideological and behavioral reasons. However, at the center of the Holocaust, was the Final Solution aimed solely at the Jews.

“Every Jew that we can lay our hands on is to be destroyed now during the war, without exception. …obliterate the biological basis of Jewry” (SS Reichsfuhrer Heinrich Himmler). “… we say that the war will not end as the Jews imagine it will, namely, with the uprooting of the Aryans, but the result of this war will be the complete annihilation of the Jews” (Adolf Hitler Speech at the Berlin Sportspalast, January 30, 1942; after the Wannsee Conference of January 20, 1942). On March, 27, 1942, Joseph Goebbels wrote admiringly in his diary: No other government and no other regime would have the strength for such a global solution of this question. Regarding the Jews, the Nazis were equal opportunity killers. (Bauer).

The priority target was indeed the Jews, wherever the Nazi regime and its collaborators could find them. From political Europe (including the overseas European possessions of Italian Libya, and pro-Nazi Vichy North Africa), to the Middle East and Asia (Iraq and Shanghai), there was no exception in the Nazi regime's attempt to murder every last Jew within its grasp. “All Jews were victims,” correctly declared Nobel Laureate and Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel.

“Totality – all Jews everywhere, those who had three or four Jewish grandparents, were to be killed for the reason that they had been born. Globality.”(Bauer at Yad Vashem)

Henia Perlman (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:29, 11 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request: Change of basic definition

The basic definition of the Holocaust should mention not only Jews, but also "other minorities". I agree that the biggest group were Jews, but there were other groups of people targeted for systematic killing such as disabled, Soviets, Poles, Slavs, Gypsies. The first sentence is in contrary to other facts stated in this article and other articles such as "Holocaust victims". Most of the definitions on internet include "other minorities" or "others" in definitions. I will list the definitions of most prominent sources:

Source Definition include
Encyclopedia Britanica ..."millions of others"...
United Nations Holocaust rememberance ..."along with countless members of other minorities"...
Oxford Dictionary ..."as well as members of other persecuted groups"...
Cambridge Dictionary ..."and others"...
United States Holocaust Memorial Museum ..."millions of others"...
Wikipedia Victims of Holocaust people targeted for ..."various discriminatory practices due to ethnicity, religion, political beliefs, or sexual orientation"
Websters "the mass slaughter of European civilians"...
Jewish Virtual Library "Other individuals and groups were persecuted"...
Encyclopedia Britanica ..."and millions of others by Nazi Germany and its"...

I suggest to edit the first sentence and include "and other minorities" to the end so it is like: "was a genocide in which Adolf Hitler's Nazi Germany and its collaborators killed about six million Jews and other minorities." And please remove "Some definitions of the Holocaust include the" from following sentence so it begins with "Additional five million non-Jewish victims"....

Lets not forget. Hraju (talk) 22:15, 27 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request is not outside the bounds of reason and Hraju notes there are RS sources backing that form of definition. However it is far too controversial to do unilaterally. I would suggest an RfC on the subject in order to gain some degree of consensus. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:20, 27 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We have been here before and while I don’t like to repeat myself, I wrote on the talk page (in two places) back in March 2015: "The Nazis (and their allies) committed mass murder of different groups of people: Russian POWs, Ukrainians, Roma, and Serbs. I believe that these other mass murders are well covered in other WP articles. The fact is that the major historians writing in English have chosen to use the term, Holocaust, to refer to the mass murder of European Jews by the Nazis and their allies (just as the French use the term Shoah). This is a question of taxonomy, not judgement. "While it is not possible to count the heads of the major historians, but as I look around the books in my study, I come up with the following writers: Saul Friedlander, Peter Longerich, Michael Marrus, Robert Paxton, Christopher Browning, Deborah Lipstadt, Leni Yahil, Walter Laqueur, Arthur D. Morse, Nora Levin, Susan Zuccotti, Alexander Donat, David S. Wyman, Martin Gilbert, Yehuda Bauer, Timothy Snyder, Tony Judt, Caroline Moorehead, Ian Kershaw, and Raul Hilberg. By anybody's measure, an honor roll of the major historians of modern European history. Everyone of them uses the term "The Holocaust" to distinguish the Nazi mass murder of European Jews from other Nazi mass murders. Most of them also have studied the other Nazi mass murders. The term is solely a classification term and none of those writers to the best of my knowledge ignore or even downplay the other mass murders. The publication dates of these studies range from 1967 (Arthur Morse) to 2013 (Susan Zuccotti)." Joel Mc (talk) 21:15, 28 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

How is it then, that all other definitions include "others" ? Also Holocaust victims page should not include other victims, then. I do my own research among major historians and will let you know in few days Hraju (talk) 21:16, 29 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hraju: There is a difference between a dictionary definition and one that is included in a wikipedia piece. Dictionaries are unsourced and sometimes try to include examples from common usage. The definition in a wikipedia article should have a reliable source other than a dictionary (or another encyclopedia) if there is one. In this case there are plenty of examples that scholars and recognized experts on modern European history writing in English use the term “The Holocaust” to mean the mass murder of European Jews. More recent writers prefer to use terms such as “mass murder of European Jews” than Holocaust but they don’t use the word “Holocaust" as a blanket term for all of the Nazi mass murders. To be sure, many people in the street (and even some wiki editors) use the term to mean all Nazi mass murders, however there are important analytical reasons that historians and other experts have chosen to distinguish the Nazi mass murder of the Jews from other Nazi mass murders. But that is another long discussion. Joel Mc (talk) 12:06, 30 January 2017 (UTC) Historian Deborah Lipstadt addresses the question here: Lipstadt, Deborah (2017-01-30). "How the Trump Administration Is Engaging in 'Softcore' Holocaust Denial". The Atlantic. Retrieved 2017-01-31. {{cite web}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help) Joel Mc (talk) 21:05, 31 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Joel Mc: I understand that most of the books about Holocaust target Jews, logically as they were the biggest part of the people in concentration camps. Also they suffered biggest portion of their population. But just because most books on this topics describe Jews, does not mean that Holocaust is described as genocide of Jews only. I wrote to several professors of history and got some responses from Harvard University and all states that they see it as "Jews only". Some say - this is just their opinion and not to be published, because there is dispute about it. Before final verdict, please give me some time to ask more people. Hraju (talk) 14:19, 3 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

After looking on archived Holocaust talk pages, I can see that this topic was discussed many times all over. Wikipedia should mention at beggining of the article that the term "Holocaust" is disputed and that there are these two definitions - and list the two definitions. Currently, the page gives us a definition and mention that there is a dispute and only "some" definitions include that other minorities should be included in this definition. This is wrong from my POV. Hraju (talk) 15:03, 3 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

On the Contrary, it is the "11 million" which is dubious

@Joel Mc: Has anyone seen this? ‘Remember the 11 million’? Why an inflated victims tally irks Holocaust historians I'd like to know if the 5 million number is truly an arbitrary synthesis meant to reach 5 million as Bauer and Lipstadt say (they are giants in Holocaust studies). It seems so because there is no telling why only those non-Jewish civillians killed by the nazis are included and not, say, victims of the siege of stalingrad. The earliest definitions of the Holocaust did only include Jews, and it appears that including others in the definition began around the 70s. I'm especially concerned because holocaust victims traffics in exactly that sort of "softcore denial", part of a general wikitrend of de-judaizing the Holocaust, not coincidentally by eastern europeans. Wikiproject Holocaust should definitely take a look at this issue, which could mean a substantial overhaul in current categorization.--Monochrome_Monitor 07:45, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note I'm not saying other groups weren't persecuted, but I'm wondering whether the use of Holocaust as an umbrella term is appropriate.--Monochrome_Monitor 07:49, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to debate the use of the word Holocaust you need to take that up on another forum. All we do is repeat the consensus in reliable sources. -Ad Orientem (talk) 14:29, 3 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Jewish Deaths in Labour Camps in Tunisia

I have removed the following sentence from the 'North Africa' section of the article: 'More than 2,500 Tunisian Jews died in slave labor camps during the German occupation.[1]'

  1. ^ Friedmann, Jan (23 May 2007). "World War II: New Research Taints Image of Desert Fox Rommel". Spiegel Online. Retrieved 4 March 2016.

The reason for removing this is that the source is a journalistic book review which is not likely to be an authoritative source. The following source indicates that 2,500 was the total number of deaths of Jews in Tunisia during the period of German occupation, not deaths in labour camps. Indeed this source is specific that most of those 2,500 were killed by Allied bombing, rather than in labour camps. It is possible that the total number of deaths has been accidentally conflated with the number of deaths in labour camps in the Spiegel article.

Robert Satloff, Among the Righteous: Lost Stories from the Holocaust's Long Reach Into Arab Lands, PublicAffairs, 2007 p.55 https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Nzj9AgAAQBAJ&pg=PA55&lpg=PA55&dq=more+jews+killed+by+allied+bombing+tunisia&source=bl&ots=uSmNGp0e2c&sig=cWz2f5ygZMk1r5WJMi3_DigIZVY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi83oWU5PjRAhULCcAKHWN2ApAQ6AEIITAB#v=onepage&q=more%20jews%20killed%20by%20allied%20bombing%20tunisia&f=false accessed 5/2/2017 Mccapra (talk) 11:07, 5 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

OK I see my edit has been reverted as it took me too long to post this explanation here on the Talk page. Could other editors please look into this as the statement in the article that 2,500 Jews were killed in Tunisian labour camps is pretty certainly untrue. Thanks Mccapra (talk) 11:22, 5 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

According to Yad Vashem, 'tens' of Jews died in 'the biggest most lethal' camps in Tunisia, rather than 2,500. See http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/education/newsletter/25/algeria_marocco.asp#!prettyPhoto Mccapra (talk) 11:59, 5 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

According to this source the total number of Jewish deaths in Tunisian labour camps was 46. http://www.pjvoice.com/v27/27006tunisia.aspx Mccapra (talk) 12:09, 5 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]


In the Jewish Holocaust Museum, there is an exhibit “Shoah,” curetted by Yad Vashem and located at Block 27 at the Auschwitz Museum. The Jews from pro-Nazi Vichy Tunisia and Italian Libya who were murdered in the Shoah can be found in the Book of Names in the last room of the museum.

There is also a table of Jewish losses in the Shoah according to country that is displayed, where one will see that the victims from Italian Libya and Vichy Tunisia are listed: 600 and 250 respectively.

I was there and visited the exhibit Shoah in 2014, one year after it was created. I also read: The primary motivation was the Nazis’ antisemitic racist ideology. Between 1933 and 1941 Nazi Germany pursued a policy that dispossessed the Jews of their rights and their property, followed by the branding and concentration of the Jewish population. This policy gained broad support in Germany and much of occupied Europe. In 1941, following the invasion of the Soviet Union, the Nazis and their collaborators launched the systematic mass murder of the Jews. By 1945 nearly six million Jews had been murdered.

It was correct to remove the quotation of 2,500 Tunisian Jews, also because many Jews in Vichy Tunisia were French, Italian, and British.It is incorrect to use "Tunisian Jews."— Preceding unsigned comment added by Henia_Perlman (talk • contribs)

@Henia Perlman: Please put new posts at the bottom of the thread they belong to, indent your posts with a colon (:), and sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~). Ian.thomson (talk) 03:06, 11 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Put in the only ref I could find. Joel Mc (talk) 13:37, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Clarified definition

There has been much discussion about the definition. I have tried to clarify it, mentioning other Nazi mass murders which should make it clear that the word Holocaust is not a catch all term for all Nazi atrocities which of course are many. Joel Mc (talk) 11:04, 13 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Lipstadt scoring political points with the White House

Re: last edit by User:Joel Mc changing the definition of the Holocaust. Please note, Lipstadt's article for the Atlantic is not about the history of the Holocaust. Lipstadt writes about statements released by Trump administration recently, engaging in (what she calls) "historiographic pornography" or the "softcore Holocaust denial".[1] Lipstadt's article is positively not about history. Quoting it in our Holocaust summary is inappropriate and biased under the current political circumstances.

Meanwhile, going back to wp:lede citations in support of the Holocaust definition, there's absolutely nothing about the Holocaust on p.45 in Snyder ... whatsoever! On p. 413 Snyder defines the Holocaust in the following way: Though the term genocide in fact has wide application, it is often thought to refer only to the Holocaust. People who associate themselves with victims will wish to define past crimes as genocide, thinking that this will lead to recognition of the kind awarded to the Holocaust. Meanwhile, people associated with states that perpetrated a genocide resist the term with great energy, because they believe that its acceptance would be tantamount to acceptance of a role in the Holocaust. — In other words, Snyder (as quoted) supports the term "genocide" in this context rather than the term "mass murder".[2] Poeticbent talk 21:32, 13 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for pointing out my mistake in the Snyder reference. The actual page number is 389. There he writes, "In this book the term Holocaust signifies the final version of the Final Solution, the German policy to eliminate the Jews of Europe by murdering them" and further on, same page: "I prefer mass killing to genocide for a number of reasons..." Re: the Lipstadt reference. I used it as a reference because she stated plainly what she has written in many places and referred to as well in her testimony at the David Irving trial: She writes, "There were indeed millions of innocent people whom the Nazis killed in many horrific ways, some in the course of the war and some because the Germans perceived them—however deluded their perception—to pose a threat to their rule. They suffered terribly. But that was not the Holocaust...The Holocaust was something entirely different. It was an organized program with the goal of wiping out a specific people." She is a recognized historian and scholar and I thought that she put the issue sucinctly, clarifying a point that has come up many times on this talk page. --Joel Mc (talk) 22:50, 13 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(got an edit conflict an am repasting this) It would have been nice if we had finished the discussion before you made your changes to the text. I have given above the correct page ref for Snyder where indeed he states his definition of the Holocaust and the reason that he doesn't use the word genocide. I believe that what is lost also is the implication that major historians define the Holocaust as the mass murder (or genocide) of European Jews. You can't tell that from your changed text. Still believe that the Lipstadt quote gave some added insight, it is a pity to lose such an accessible ref. Joel Mc (talk) 23:24, 13 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I hear you. For Deborah Lipstadt the Holocaust is about "wiping out a specific people" i.e. the Jewish people. I think our article makes it clear. Almost every reputable historian attempts to define the Holocaust (as their terms of reference) slightly differently for the purpose of supporting statements made on the pages of their own books. And I think, our article reflects that too. I tried to retain as much of your recent edit as humanly possible. Poeticbent talk 23:08, 13 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify a point: our page numbers differ, your quote of Snider appears on p. 390 in my book. More importantly it follows the categoric statement "I prefer mass killing to genocide for a number of reasons….The term genocide gives rise to inevitable and intractable controversies. It relies upon the intention of the perpetrator in two places: “intent to destroy” a certain group “as such.” It can be argued that policies of mass killing were not genocide, because rulers had some other “intent,” or because they intended to kill someone, but not a specified group “as such.”" pp.389-390. Re: Lipstadt scoring political points with the White House ( I believe you mean "scoring political points against the White House). I doubt that she was interested in scoring points, but rather in educating readers about the meaning of the Holocaust which is often misunderstood. Her take is actually quite mainstream among historians. I think that her quote is most appropriate to the article, but it is not worth getting into an edit war. Joel Mc (talk) 10:40, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Source Misrepresented

In the lead paragraph we have "Some definitions of the Holocaust include additional five million non-Jewish victims of the Nazi campaign of mass murder, such as Romani, the Soviet prisoners of war, the Aktion T4 patients, the Ukrainian Holodomor victims as well as victims of crimes against the Polish nation, Polish intelligentsia, Serbs and others, bringing the total to about 11 million." The source for this sentence is given as The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust pp. 45-52 which does not make this statement. The source has been misrepresented for the following reasons.
1-The Ukrainian Holodomor is not mentioned.
2-Serbs are not listed among the Holocaust victims
3-The total number of victims using the broader Holocaust definition in the Columbia Guide to the Holocaust is given as 17 million not 11 million.
I own the Columbia Guide to the Holocaust and will provide jpgs of pages 45-52. Please contact me by E-mail. This is an important article, we need to cite our sources correctly.--Woogie10w (talk) 13:17, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you for pointing it out, User:Woogie10w. You are absolutely correct. Donald L. Niewyk and Francis R. Nicosia in their Columbia Guide to the Holocaust state on page 45 (quote):
"The Nazis also killed millions of people belonging to other groups: Gypsies, the physically and mentally handicapped, Soviet prisoners of war, Polish and Soviet civilians, political prisoners, religious dissenters, and homosexuals. Can it be said that any of these groups were treated the same way as the Jews and for the same reasons and hence deserve to be included in the history of the Holocaust? A positive answer to this question would require a broader definition of the Holocaust and acknowledging as many as 17,000,000 victims."
Holodomor and Serbs are not mentioned. The source has been misrepresented. Poeticbent talk 18:39, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Please note, Niewyk and Nicosia in their Conclusion (pp. 51-52) provided four separate definitions of the Holocaust in the most objective manner, and admitted themselves to adopting just one of them, i.e. the third definition when writing their own Guide to the Holocaust.
  1. First definition: "the traditional view that it was the genocide of the Jews alone."
  2. Second definition: "parallel Holocausts, one for each of several victim groups (the exact number being debatable)"
  3. Third definition: "In this view members of other groups were killed selectively and can be safely excluded." This definition: "broaden the Holocaust to embrace Gypsies and the handicapped along with the Jews."
  4. Fourth definition: "encompassing all racially motivated German crimes and all their victims" thus placing "additional burdens on scholars and their students."
Poeticbent talk 19:28, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You may want to use this source instead of the Columbia Guide (17 million victims) since it ties out to 11 million victims "According to the College of Education of the University of South Florida Approximately 11 million people were killed because of Nazi genocidal policy.[1] --Woogie10w (talk) 19:58, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ "Florida Center for Instructional Technology, College of Education, University of South Florida, A Teachers Guide to the Holocaust". Fcit.usf.edu. Retrieved March 4, 2016.
Snyder (2010) in Bloodlands speaks about the 11 million on page 384, and we already have his work listed in reference section. I prefer to use sources which can be attributed to historians by name. Thanks for letting me know about the Teachers Guide to the Holocaust. Poeticbent talk 21:24, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Needless to say, the 17,000,000 victims listed by Niewyk & Nicosia (2000) would have to have a much broader support in Holocaust literature to be included in the opening paragraph of this article. Poeticbent talk 21:39, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Re: Timothy Snyder One- The geographic area covered by the "Bloodlands" is limited to Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, the Baltic states and western Russian regions occupied by Germany, he does not include the rest of Europe. Two- 5.4 million Jewish victims in the Holocaust ( he does not include an additional 300,000 deaths outside the Bloodlands). page 410-12 Three-The source for Snyder's figures is Dieter Pohl, Verfolgung und Massenmord in der NS-Zeit 1933–1945. I would use Pohl as a source but I suspect that many readers would object to a source in the German language. --Woogie10w (talk) 22:43, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Poeticbent you are correct that Snyder puts the total of Nazi victims at " perhaps 11 million" on page 384. The caveat here is that Snyder on p 410 notes that he "generally excludes from the count deaths due to exertion, disease, or malnutrition in concentration camps; deportations, forced labor, evacuations; people who died of hunger as a result of wartime shortfalls, and civilians killed by bombings or other acts of war." Dieter Pohl puts the total at 12-14 million based on the deaths attributable to all causes. Poeticbent note well that Snyder does not even mention the figure of 2.7 million Polish victims that was published in 2009 by IPN or the official Russian figures of 13.7 million civilian deaths and 1.3 million POW. --Woogie10w (talk) 23:06, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
IMO we should use both Synder and the College of Education of the University of South Florida. They are in agreement on the figure of 11 million and the University of South Florida. has a detailed explanation on their webpage. In any case Synder has his critics in the academic world, his word is not gospel--Woogie10w (talk) 23:16, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I avoid editing this page because I believe that the Holocaust was the genocide of the Jews alone. Thanks to Jimmy Carter Poles and Ukrainians were included. It was smart politics in 1980 but real dumb history. --Woogie10w (talk) 23:22, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Allikas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special%3ADiff%2F765533147
No tags for this post.