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Not leaving a formal meal until the coffee course (or even the loyal toast) is hardly confined to the Inns of Court...

David Underdown 14:52, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but only rarely in a non-legal social situtation are you made to feel a fool for ignoring tradition Pydos 08:46, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing to do with tradition - one should be regarded as a fool and a knave for bad manners. 79.72.17.57 (talk) 10:58, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

but that lead pic is not good. There are several decent photos in Commons that could be added around the article. Johnbod (talk) 17:46, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed; I've tried not to add too many photos, because otherwise it pulls the structure out. Can you suggest any particular pic for the lede? The current one is a bit natty, but I couldn't really find anything that said "Gray's Inn" to me. Ironholds (talk) 20:31, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are no photo views yet! maybe File:Gray's inn zz.JPG or the one left of it, or the first in commons. The notice too, maybe, & the chapel. Johnbod (talk) 21:53, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I quite like the first one, I'll stick that in. The chapel isn't really an accurate portrayal, I feel. Ironholds (talk) 22:59, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've cleaned up some of the grammar and repititions as a minimum edit. 89.168.94.38 (talk) 20:11, 29 August 2009 (UTC) Tony S[reply]

I've got to correct some of it - some of it is very confusing, and others are incorrect (civil law, for example). Ironholds (talk) 20:26, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You've also removed several key points. Rewriting. Ironholds (talk) 20:28, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, flows better now - there was an edit conflict and I might have accidentally removed some of yours in the process. 89.168.94.38 (talk) 22:56, 29 August 2009 (UTC)Tony S[reply]

Can anyone supply an image of the Inn's coat of arms- Griffon Rampant?? 89.168.94.38 (talk) 23:04, 29 August 2009 (UTC) Tony S[reply]

It's rather difficult to get hold of a direct image. There is a very nice painting of them in the RCJ I was going to use, but I can't find the room it was in. Ironholds (talk) 23:35, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Gray's Inn/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Starting review. Pyrotec (talk) 19:02, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As a result of several quick read-throughs, this article appears to be GA-class material. In particular, it appears to be comprehensive in scope and well referenced; but there is a bit of over-linking, e.g. Inns of Chancery appears to be excessively linked where ever it appears, but that is a minor problem that can be very easily remedied during the review.

I will now go through the article is some detail section by section, checking against WP:WIAGA, but leaving the WP:Lead until last.

As this is a comprehensive article, it might take me a day or so. Pyrotec (talk) 20:38, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed one link, leaving three links to the Inns of Chancery. Over 40kb, that sounds about right. It's not a common term, so I tend to link such things a bit more often. Ironholds (talk) 20:40, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That was a "wiki-linked phrase" that caught my eye. It is suggested that no more than one wiki-link per section be used; it just caught my attention since it appeared to be linked in two consecutive paragraphs, in two consecutive sections (and linked singularly in several other sections). In reviewing I would probably delink the second occurence in each section (where relevant). Pyrotec (talk) 20:52, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Role -

Appears compliant, but are barrister's always "he"s? (shades of PC).

You want me to put in he/she everywhere? Barristers are mostly he's, and in the historical sense will always be he - the first female barrister wasn't admitted to one of the Inns of Court until 1921, largely because of the law degree awarding attitude of universities. Ironholds (talk) 11:30, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why not add this explantation to Role. Pyrotec (talk) 13:52, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That most barristers are male? Ironholds (talk) 14:18, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I made a PC comment about "allowing him to practise as a barrister in England and Wales.[1]" In respect to your question above I indicated that you could add a note based on your expanation: "Barristers are mostly he's, and in the historical sense will always be he - the first female barrister wasn't admitted to one of the Inns of Court until 1921, largely because of the law degree awarding attitude of universities." To summarise, you say they were always male before 1921 and mostly male from then onwards.That appears to be encyclopedic, why not add it to the article? Pyrotec (talk) 14:27, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Added. Ironholds (talk) 16:37, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This section disscusses practising as a barrister in England and Wales. There is no mention of whether he is able or not to practise in Scotland (or NI); but the WP:Lead does not have this caveate about England and Wales. Pyrotec (talk) 14:43, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Added a caveat in the lede - barristers must be called separately in NI/Scotland to practice there, since they have seperate legal systems and separate laws. Ironholds (talk) 16:37, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• History -

• The first paragraph; is "common lawyer" a technical term?

• Yup, a lawyer of the common law, rather than of say, canon law, who would be a member of Doctors' Commons. Ironholds (talk) 11:30, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Pyrotec (talk) 14:43, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Is there a reference for their migration to Holborn?

• Added. Ironholds (talk) 11:30, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• • Founding and early years -

• Reference for socii.

• Added. Ironholds (talk) 11:30, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

... to be continued. Pyrotec (talk) 21:06, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Elizabethan golden age -

• I've no idea what Bolts are (well I assume they are not any of these Bolt).

• A form of legal exercise - there's no more specific information about it. Ironholds (talk) 16:31, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Caroline period and the English Civil War -

• What are Pension meetings?

• Meetings of the Pension - see the "structure and governance" section. Ironholds (talk) 16:31, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   Well referenced

   B. Focused:

   Well referenced

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

I'm awarding this article GA-status. Congratulations on the quality of the article. If you are willing to undertake the additional work, this article could be a WP:FAC. Pyrotec (talk) 16:57, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"During the nineteenth century the Inns began to stagnate; little had been changed since the seventeenth century in terms of legal education or practice, except that students were no longer bound to be confirmed by the Church of England before their call to the Bar..." the italicised bit is not what the reference says. A better text or reference is needed, and a date ought to found for the change. Johnbod (talk) 14:41, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Gah, miswrote there. "By the 1840s" is the best date I can get (unless you're willing to trawl through 400 years of primary references at the Holker Library without the aid of a searching mechanism?). Ironholds (talk) 17:53, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why on earth would that be necessary? Test Act repeal etc. The subject hardly lacks secondary sources. Johnbod (talk) 20:05, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Because it was customary, not part of the Test Acts, as far as I'm aware. The secondary sources I've gathered (and they're a) pretty substantial and b) just about everything on the topic outside of the Holker Library) make a single reference to this requirement, a reference given in the article. Ironholds (talk) 21:56, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'd become more aware. I very much doubt it was customary. No doubt that is why there is little in purely local sources. Johnbod (talk) 23:01, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can you provide any kind of evidence that this was the reason, then? If so, I'd be glad to improve it, but when the sources give "some time between 1740 and 1840" it rather screws things up. Ironholds (talk) 23:23, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Access of non-Anglicans to the universities & professions was a major political issue in the period, and far too important to be left to the colleges and professional bodies. I don't really think I have to provide evidence of this. A little research into the general subject should easily turn up the facts I imagine. Johnbod (talk) 23:27, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually if you're disputing the facts of the article you do have to provide evidence. Ironholds (talk) 23:35, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I pointed out the article contradicted its own reference. You have now changed that to "the Anglican sacrament" (sic) perhaps a typo. Beyond that I said you should give a figure for the change, rather than a range of some 150 years, which if you have any aspirations to FAC you certainly should. Their website & the guidebook is not "the sources", just your sources. Johnbod (talk) 00:52, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See my above point. The large number of books on the subject give a total of zero mentions of this; the only thing that does is the website. I can't see a typo. Again, I don't have a better date range, because the website is the only source here that covers it. See how we're going in circles? Again, if you're so sure it was part of the test acts you should be able to find a reference saying it is, and as somebody challenging content backed up by reliable sources the onus is on you to prove your assertion, not me. Ironholds (talk) 09:37, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Outdent: I note that the test acts cover "civil and military offices" - barristers were neither of those. There was certainly a prohibition against judges being catholic, but I can find no reference to barristers. I have the raw text of both acts and neither act makes any reference to barristers or the bar. Ironholds (talk) 09:45, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually it seems from this and this that Catholics (& similar references refer to Jews) were able to study in the Inns, but not be called to the Bar. Johnbod (talk) 12:19, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The second reference there implies that they could be called to the Bar; it makes reference to some catholics who were allowed to "practice the law" following admission to one of the Inns. Ironholds (talk) 12:25, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Either way the current text does not appear correct. Johnbod (talk) 12:28, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry? The reference says that prior to the 1840s, people were required to take the Anglican sacrament. The text says that prior to the 1840s, people were required to take the Anglican sacrament. Your efforts to show that it was because of the Test Acts have so far turned up two references, one of which says nothing properly either way and the other implies that catholics were able to practice the law. A look at the text of the acts shows it covers "civil and military offices", which has never included barristers. Where exactly is the problem with the text? The only problem I can see is with your assertion. Ironholds (talk) 17:10, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Both references make it clear that in fact Catholics were able to study at the Inns in general during the period when the web page implies they were not (at Grays Inn). But I'm not going to bother further here if you're going to take a dog in the manger attitude. See you at FAC I suppose. You might try & establish what exactly the "Anglican sacrament" is supposed to be in the meantime. Johnbod (talk) 18:00, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• That would be this, then. Please try to avoid personal little comments. This whole argument has got slightly confused, so I'll again address your two points:

  1) that the "anglican sacrament" was due to the test acts. You've provided no reference to support this, and can't seem to find one. My attempts, which include pulling up the original wording of the act, show no mention of barristers, only "military and civil offices", which didn't include barristers.

  2) that the sentence and reference are wrong because you've pulled up references saying that Catholics could study at the Inns. My source and your source do not conflict, because the Call is after the training.

  Overall I'm now just slightly confused. You've been unable to find proof for your main argument, and without a single reference either supporting your view that it was the test acts or providing a more accurate date we can't change the "1840s" we've got. You "[WP:OR|thinking]]" it's the Test Acts isn't good enough. I've pulled out some more sources thanks to the Selden Society, and will try and find a more accurate date, but unreferenced assertions are not included in articles I edit. If this somehow gives me a dog in a manger attitude then so be it; I'm sorry you find my refusal to let you put a mix of synthesis and original research in an article so upsetting. Ironholds (talk) 18:36, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have never edited the article; I am merely trying to get you to do so in an unsloppy manner. What I said was "Why on earth would that be necessary? Test Act repeal etc. The subject hardly lacks secondary sources." - etc covering the whole of the Penal laws. Enough. Johnbod (talk) 19:34, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

None of the secondary sources mention the requirement at all. You have yet to find any evidence that it was the Test Acts. Ironholds (talk) 19:41, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have some questions regarding the sources in this article. I see that the article rests on many 19th-century and early 20th-century sources. The discipline of history was quite different at this time - the standards for evidence, for example, were quite different. Think, also, for example about how the views about women's roles in society have changed since this time. The way that women were treated by the law and the perception of its fairness has changed dramatically in the last 100 years. By relying so extensively on older books, the article will reflect their views on such matters. However, not all 19th-century and early 20th-century histories are unreliable. What I would like to see is some evidence from late 20th-century historians that these books are high-quality sources. Without this, I would be worried about relying on them so extensively and would encourage the article authors to use more recent scholarship. Awadewit (talk) 02:29, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hmn, good point. The article doesn't really deal with women (particularly since women weren't admitted to the Inns of Court until the early 20th century, mainly because of the LLB awarding system used by Oxbridge) but the quality of sources is always important. One of the reasons I'm using these is that there's very little written in the late twentieth century about the Inns - the most recent stuff I have is snippets from The Times and the like. However, the bibliography of the Selden Society on the Inns (which I used as a starting point) lists all of these as acceptable academic sources. It was written by Sir John Sainty and the society is the premier legal history society in the United Kingdom - John Baker (blessed be his name :P) is currently the editor in chief. I hope that helps. I should be wandering down to the Holker Library in December if I can, there may be something more recent there. Thanks, Ironholds (talk) 10:12, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Do barristers actually "live" here, as per this version, where it talks of a "place of living"? Seems a little unlikely, although nothing would surprise me. --Nickhh (talk) 01:05, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Some do, in fact. I suspect it's a similar situation to my Inn, Inner Temple (sorry Ironholds!), where the top floor of most of the buildings is a residential flat, rented out to barristers or judges belonging to the Inn either as a London pied-a-terre or in some cases as a main residence. Some senior members of the Inn staff have flats too. Bencherlite^Talk 01:12, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]