Why was this shifted? The article seems to stand alone reasonably well, and it seems subpages will go away at some stage in the not-too-distant future. It seems a bit odd to be making more things subpages at this point in time. --Robert Merkel

I think Corridor 7 at least deserves a mention – it came out at the same time as Doom and had several fascinating features that FPS later copied (shape-shifting monsters, for example.) -- ObscureAuthor 21:30, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

You can always add the info yourself. :^) —Frecklefoot 16:35, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I removed these two games from the list of notable FPS games:

• Under Ash
• Special Force

They seem rather obscure and probably are only noteworthy because of their pro-Middle-Eastern slant. Unless someone else can provide evidence as to why they should be on the list, I vote to leave them off. —Frecklefoot 16:35, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Who determine what is notable and what is not? What is so notable with Heretic for instance? // Liftarn

Well, it was incredibly popular for one thing... —Frecklefoot 17:53, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

But that hardly makes it notable, it's just Doom in a fantasy setting (same engine, same weapons, same monsters et.c.). On the other hand, why aren't Under Ash and Special Force notable? They are highly interesting due to the reactions they have stirred up. // Liftarn

Well, their subjects certainly are controversal, but I haven't heard any notable mainstream reactions regarding the games. I think few if any people outside the Middle East have heard of them at all. I'm in the game industry and I didn't hear about them until I saw the links you posted. —Frecklefoot 14:36, 3 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Since they seem to be sold only in some countries in the middle east and gaming magazines are driven by advertising that's hardly suprising, but it has been covered by gaming sites such as EuroGamer, Gamers Hell, Game Girl Advance, Gamer.nl et.c. Both "Under Ash" and "Special Force" have however been covered by mainstream media such as BBC, Australian IT, The Age, News Tribune et.c. // Liftarn

I did some research and found Catacomb 3D (aka The Catacomb Abyss). That used the same engine as Wolfenstein 3D, but was actually released earlier (and it was in EGA). Another early example is Hovertank 3D, released in April 1991. Catacomb 3D may have been the first FPS that included the pleyer's hand. // Liftarn

That doesn't sound right to me. How could C3D use the same engine as W3D when id hadn't even finished developing it?? And how could id have sold the engine in EGA when they were developing the engine in VGA (or Super VGA)? Do you mean C3D used the same technology as W3D?

Regardless, Wolf3D was still the FPS that started the craze. I don't think very many people have heard of Catacomb 3D, but sure did hear about (and play) Wolf3D. —Frecklefoot 14:36, 3 Sep 2003 (UTC)

To be correct it's actually Wolf3D that uses the C3D engine. Ofcourse it's not exactly the same engine, but a later version of it. The C3D engine is probably based on the Hovertank engine. Most people probably haven't heard about them, but perhaps they should be included in the history section. // Liftarn

Wolf3D's engine may be based on the same technology as Catacomb 3D, but it isn't based on the same engine (unless Catacomb 3D was developed by id). Also, Catacomb 3D, unless by the same company as Hovertank, probably is based on technology similar to Hovertank, but not using the same engine. I know we're just talking here, but engine and technology are not the same thing and we don't want to carry over any misnomers into the article.

Personally I don't object to the addition of notes on these games to the article, but it should be clearly noted that Wolf3D started the craze, though technically these games appeared first in the marketplace. —Frecklefoot 17:10, 3 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Yes, I used the word "engine" a bit sloppy. It's not the same engine, but the same technology and to a great extent the same code used. Yes, both Hovertank and Catacomb was developed by id's John Carmack. // Liftarn

Cool, well as long as you can cite some references, I don't see any reason not to include mention of them in the article. Yes, if Carmack did program both of the previous games, it's likely that Wolf3D uses a lot of the same code as the previous games. —Frecklefoot 14:17, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I think http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/publicfeature/aug02/id.html should be a good source of information about the early history of FPS. // Liftarn

That's a great link—I'm going to add it to the id article (External Links section). Thanks, Liftarn! —Frecklefoot 15:14, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

It would be good if we could add some screenshots. It's interesting to see that the same pink, muscular monster appears in Hovertank 3D, Catacomb 3D and Doom. // Liftarn

I just found an interview with John Romero at http://www.projectdoom.com/romero.html where the question about FPS is answered with Well, there had already been first-person games on the market for several years back then like Rescue On Fractalus, The Eidolon, Way Out!, MS Flight Simulator, etc. but there was nothing that was really fast and nothing that actually had you shooting guns at enemies. When we decided to do Hovertank in 1991, Carmack wanted to get into 3D programming and at that point we were already doing side-scrolling shooters so we just made the 3D game a violent one. Not until Wolfenstein 3D, with its extremely fast pace and violent action, did the term FPS need to be invented.. // Liftarn

Do you want to integrate that information into the article? —Frecklefoot 14:17, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I'll give it a shot. // Liftarn