Does Duke 3D deserve to be added to this article as a significant FPS? Its 3D engine, Build, was something of a halfway point between Doom and Quake in that while it wasn't true 3D, it allowed for rooms above rooms, spiral staircases, mirrors and such things that Doom couldn't. (Admittedly this was something of a hack; the engine couldn't handle it properly if you could see into two stacking rooms from each other, but you could still do real elevators instead of pseudo-elevators that were really teleporters.) It also had an excellent and well-defined main character as the protagonist. --Jonathan Drain 05:55, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Technologically: probably not, IMO. Apart from mirrors, the earlier Descent did all the other 3D stuff, and more. Character-wise, I'm more open to persuasion. I can't think of anything earlier where the lead character had such a strong personality. Whether that's enough to count is another question. It definitely influenced Serious Sam in that regard, but I can't think of much else without straying off into RPG territory, so it may not get in on the "influential" argument. And I'm not sure this should be a popularity contest.Blufive 21:40, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Yes Duke Nukem 3D deserves to be there. On a social scale alone it was almost as influential as Doom, almost as many, if not more, people have that fond rememberance of it being their first FPS experience. Aside from that, Ken Silverman first created the Build Engine which developed into Duke 3D for his personal game Ken's Labyrinth quite awhile before Descent took the scene and as far as the merits of that engine go, I can only say that it was far more widely used both commercially and otherwise than the descent engine. There is an interview with him on my site: firstpersonshooters.org that goes into a little of the particulars if anyone feels like adding it around here somewhere. <Advocate>

Okay, enough already, I'm convinced! :) "There is an interview with him on my site: firstpersonshooters.org". Um. Where? I've had a good look, and I can't see it. Anyhow. Based on Ken's own timeline at [1] the first commercial build game appears to have been Duke 3D, so I'll stand by Descent being ahead tech-wise (aside of anything else, Descent was using polys to render enemies and had proper 3D, before Duke3D (which still used sprites and, IIRC, faked look up/down) was even released) Blufive 20:20, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The Ken's Labyrinth page is where the Ken Silverman interview appears. His pages at [2] go into alot of particulars. I haven't memorized it or anything but It was definately a commercial game (Epic). <Advocate>

Should Descent even be in this article? It's more of a space shooter. Duke3D, if not in raw technology, was at least innovative in interactivity with the environment. You could break or use almost anything you could see. But what it was really known for was its sense of style and humour. As well as the prominent lead character(who speaks!), I don't remember other games of the time attempting modern streetscapes and buildings. And what about the gimmick weapons, like holodukes, tripmines, remote detonation pipebombs? Or the shrink and freeze rays, ie. changing an enemy's properties without killing it? Or the working remote cameras? --24.114.252.183 06:48, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Descent: yes, it should be here. While the later games in the series (particularly D3) did drift off towards dogfighting, with movement models approaching flight sim territory, the original was very much a corridors-and-rooms FPS. Controls were forward/backward, rotate, strafe (albeit extended into all three dimensions). IIRC, the throttle was added in the sequels, which also became much more joystick-friendly. In gameplay terms, D1 absolutely belongs in the category, spaceship or no spaceship. Re: Duke 3D. I'm open to persuasion. The gimmick weapons were rare at the time, and like I said above, the strong-lead-character aspect is still pretty rare today. Do a decent write-up, and we'll take it from there.Blufive 18:47, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I vote no, but then my definition of FPS doesn't include vehicle-based games. I think they belong in a sub-genre of flight sims or driving games. It was inarguably influential. <Advocate>

The main reason I'm saying "yes" is the gameplay/control/map design style - Descent used (primarily) Doom-style keyboard controls, the levels were made up of corridors/rooms, the weapons were FPS-style, the get-the-key-open-the-door game dynamic was straight out of Doom and its ilk, and so on. It just felt far more like Doom than a Flight Sim. I'm much more ambivalent about (say) Descent 3, for much the same reasons (moving off into flight-sim land, joysticks a-go-go, wide open spaces, much more mucking about with homing missiles). Blufive 20:20, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I include Descent on my site as an exception to my criteria for those reasons, So I guess I should vote yes. <Advocate>

The timeline in the article states that BF1942, released in 2002, paved the way for vehicles in FPS games (been available since 1997 in Tribes, mainstream at least since Halo in 2001) and the MMOFPS (the example cited is WW2 Online, which was released in 2001). Is there a reason for this incorrect entry or should I go ahead and fix this? BonzoESC 20:37, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This is obviously wrong. Driveable vehicles were even hacked into Quake, and Tribes was the influential archetype for extensive use of vehicles in an FPS. You can just fix these kind of errors when you catch them. --Twinxor 21:44, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Why was this shifted? The article seems to stand alone reasonably well, and it seems subpages will go away at some stage in the not-too-distant future. It seems a bit odd to be making more things subpages at this point in time. --Robert Merkel

I think Corridor 7 at least deserves a mention - it came out at the same time as Doom and had several fascinating features that FPS later copied (shape-shifting monsters, for example.) -- ObscureAuthor 21:30, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

You can always add the info yourself. :^) —Frecklefoot 16:35, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Proposed mechanism for including games in the list. I don't feel like the issue of "notability" of a particular game usually deserves voting or very deep discussion, so if you disagree with some placements, feel free to edit the list according to your understanding. Just don't forget to justify the edits by explaining how exactly was the game (or wasn't) revolutionary, influencial or popular (very popular). If other users strongly disagree with the changes, they will fix it. The best criteria for including in the list is probably recognition by FPS developers and FPS players, and there should be enough FPS players around here to define the general consensus.

Paranoid 12:44, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps we should have a line after each title summarizing why the game/series is particularly notable? - Fredrik (talk) 14:38, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. :-) —Frecklefoot 15:42, Jun 14, 2004 (UTC)

I removed these two games from the list of notable FPS games:

• Under Ash
• Special Force

They seem rather obscure and probably are only noteworthy because of their pro-Middle-Eastern slant. Unless someone else can provide evidence as to why they should be on the list, I vote to leave them off. —Frecklefoot 16:35, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Who determine what is notable and what is not? What is so notable with Heretic for instance? // Liftarn

Well, it was incredibly popular for one thing... —Frecklefoot 17:53, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

But that hardly makes it notable, it's just Doom in a fantasy setting (same engine, same weapons, same monsters et.c.). On the other hand, why aren't Under Ash and Special Force notable? They are highly interesting due to the reactions they have stirred up. // Liftarn

Well, their subjects certainly are controversal, but I haven't heard any notable mainstream reactions regarding the games. I think few if any people outside the Middle East have heard of them at all. I'm in the game industry and I didn't hear about them until I saw the links you posted. —Frecklefoot 14:36, 3 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Since they seem to be sold only in some countries in the middle east and gaming magazines are driven by advertising that's hardly suprising, but it has been covered by gaming sites such as EuroGamer, Gamers Hell, Game Girl Advance, Gamer.nl et.c. Both "Under Ash" and "Special Force" have however been covered by mainstream media such as BBC, Australian IT, The Age, News Tribune et.c. // Liftarn

I added the Delta Force series, because I think Novalogic has done great work from the ground up, making this series (especially when they release Joint Operations: Typhoon Rising) a solid entry.

I decided to be bold and force my biased opinions on everyone. ;) I removed Delta Force (IMHO it's not that popular, revolutionary or influencial), Soldier of Fortune (only moderately popular and not revolutionary or influencial) and Medal of Honor (popular, but not particularly revolutionary) from notable games and added Counter-Strike (popular, influencial and revolutionary) there.Paranoid 12:44, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

On a related note, I also added No One Lives Forever (popular) and Trespasser (influencial, in that it delayed wide adoption of decent physics in FPS games by terrible implementation that scared developers) to the additional games list. Paranoid 12:44, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I did some research and found Catacomb 3D (aka The Catacomb Abyss). That used the same engine as Wolfenstein 3D, but was actually released earlier (and it was in EGA). Another early example is Hovertank 3D, released in April 1991. Catacomb 3D may have been the first FPS that included the pleyer's hand. // Liftarn

That doesn't sound right to me. How could C3D use the same engine as W3D when id hadn't even finished developing it?? And how could id have sold the engine in EGA when they were developing the engine in VGA (or Super VGA)? Do you mean C3D used the same technology as W3D?

Regardless, Wolf3D was still the FPS that started the craze. I don't think very many people have heard of Catacomb 3D, but sure did hear about (and play) Wolf3D. —Frecklefoot 14:36, 3 Sep 2003 (UTC)

To be correct it's actually Wolf3D that uses the C3D engine. Ofcourse it's not exactly the same engine, but a later version of it. The C3D engine is probably based on the Hovertank engine. Most people probably haven't heard about them, but perhaps they should be included in the history section. // Liftarn

Wolf3D's engine may be based on the same technology as Catacomb 3D, but it isn't based on the same engine (unless Catacomb 3D was developed by id). Also, Catacomb 3D, unless by the same company as Hovertank, probably is based on technology similar to Hovertank, but not using the same engine. I know we're just talking here, but engine and technology are not the same thing and we don't want to carry over any misnomers into the article.

Personally I don't object to the addition of notes on these games to the article, but it should be clearly noted that Wolf3D started the craze, though technically these games appeared first in the marketplace. —Frecklefoot 17:10, 3 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Yes, I used the word "engine" a bit sloppy. It's not the same engine, but the same technology and to a great extent the same code used. Yes, both Hovertank and Catacomb was developed by id's John Carmack. // Liftarn

Cool, well as long as you can cite some references, I don't see any reason not to include mention of them in the article. Yes, if Carmack did program both of the previous games, it's likely that Wolf3D uses a lot of the same code as the previous games. —Frecklefoot 14:17, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I think http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/publicfeature/aug02/id.html should be a good source of information about the early history of FPS. // Liftarn

That's a great link—I'm going to add it to the id article (External Links section). Thanks, Liftarn! —Frecklefoot 15:14, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

It would be good if we could add some screenshots. It's interesting to see that the same pink, muscular monster appears in Hovertank 3D, Catacomb 3D and Doom. // Liftarn

I just found an interview with John Romero at http://www.projectdoom.com/romero.html where the question about FPS is answered with Well, there had already been first-person games on the market for several years back then like Rescue On Fractalus, The Eidolon, Way Out!, MS Flight Simulator, etc. but there was nothing that was really fast and nothing that actually had you shooting guns at enemies. When we decided to do Hovertank in 1991, Carmack wanted to get into 3D programming and at that point we were already doing side-scrolling shooters so we just made the 3D game a violent one. Not until Wolfenstein 3D, with its extremely fast pace and violent action, did the term FPS need to be invented.. // Liftarn

Do you want to integrate that information into the article? —Frecklefoot 14:17, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I'll give it a shot. // Liftarn

When I was living on Long Island in 1987/1988, I played a game called "Muon" that was supposed to be an arcade FPS. It was 3 vs. 3 and had many features of modern FPS games. I believe it must have been the first multiplayer FPS, but I don't know if it ever received funding for full development.

Players got into a small chamber with a video screen. Inside the game, players would chase each other through mazes, shooting each other down. Killing better players gave you more points and made you harder to kill as you advanced through levels. Conversely, if you killed a top-ranked player, it gave you more points proportionately.

Each team could talk to other team members, similar to the voice chat we have today. There were also special "energy" areas that were targets to kill. There was an overhead map on which you could see other players. If you stayed still, you didn't show up on the overhead map, creating ambush possibilities. Players could bring in their own maze configurations and give them to the administrator.

I have never been able to find out the developer's name. The game was played on networked Amigas, if I remember correctly.

Does anyone have more information on this game? It was VERY similar to modern FPS games in concept and it's a shame I've never seen it mentioned. It was a clear precursor to the Doom-style games and I always felt like the two had to be related somehow.

Gosh, if they were using Amigas they probably aren't around anymore. How long have they been out of production? —Frecklefoot 15:40, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I haven't seen them since that time period (1987/1988). A friend's father was the developer. His name was pronounced "Jay-ma," but it was a weird spelling, like "Dzjiema," but I haven't been able to figure out the exact name. Muon was (in all respects) the basic multiplayer FPS concept: 3 vs. 3; shooting characters that were supposed to represent other soldiers; voice chat; 3D mazes; a player nickname; etc... The main difference was that as you killed other players, you advanced in experience points and would gain weapons/armor that made you harder to kill. It was also more crude than today's games (not much in the way of sophisticated textures).

Location was Suffolk County. About 10-20 teens would get together to test the thing. An admin would set up matches between players with different nicknames. The small compartment that you physically got into was supposed to represent the body armor (floating, open ship - you looked a bit like an astronaut on a spacewalk) that you were in. Physically, there were two joysticks, similar to flight joysticks. One was for moving and one was for flying. There were buttons for firing.

For many years, after Doom, etc..., came out, I would think, "Boy, I hope that guy made some money off of his idea...." I always thought that: a) he was involved in the development of these other games; or b) he had his idea stolen or copied; or c) it was a huge coincidence.

I had someone tell me once that Muon eventually made an appearance as an arcade game in New Jersey, but I'm not sure if that's true. Obviously, it was designed to be an arcade game because it was multiplayer and home PCs were just starting to get popular. On-site game centers like PHOTON and Laser Tag were also growing in popularity those days, and I suspect they thought Muon would catch that wave.

Scott99999

Here's the reference I found, from the person that told it to me on a message board. The information seems to match my recollection of the game, though I still can't figure out the developer name.

"Muon showed up as "Chambers of Muon" in an arcade at the Echelon Mall, in Voorhees, NJ, if it's the same game. Seperate little booths with joystick controls and screens, chasing around in these little, hovering frames, shooting each other. It was run on a set of standard Amiga boxes, and had fairly cool 3D graphics for the time.

I don't know what happened to the one in Voorhees, I assume, it was just sold off, or junked when the arcade got rid of it."

MY ADD: I actually called the mall to see if some manager remembered the game, and the operator told me the arcade was shut down 3 years ago. :( Some online searches turned up the name of the arcade: "Exhilarama." I'll see if I can do some more digging. Although Carmack might be able to claim the first modern "PC" FPS, this would (potentially) be the first modern FPS before Wolfenstein/Doom (but after or concurrent with Battlezone).

Scott99999

Greetings. I can confirm that the Chamber of Muon game was indeed in use at the Echelon Mall in Voorhees, NJ, circa 1990-1991. The arcade that used it was called Video Village, but it is long since gone. I played Muon dozens of times there, being sucked into the arcade's $2 for 5 minutes of playtime ploy. And it was a blast! The six chamber pods took up a 10 x 10 foot space in the rear of the arcade, with two rows of three stalls. You could either be on the Red team or the Blue team, and depending on your level, you could choose your "chamber" exosuit. Scouts were very fast but did little damage, more heavily armored ships moved slower but had more powerful weapons. A number of ships were not available to you until you reached a certain level, and your profile was saved on the central lone Amiga 500 server that ran all six chambers.

I have always wondered why there were so few references to Chamber of Muon online. If indeed it was only ever commercially used in this one arcade, that would explain it.

Fugazi2112

I played Chambers of Muon as well at Echelon Mall. It was my understanding that there were two of these games created. Each with different names. One was at the Echelong Mall in Voorhees, NJ and the otehr I beleive was in a Mall in Chicago. I spent a small fortune playing that game around 1988-1989. I played as "Maverick" (Top Gun ref given the time). The best player was a person named "Klyss". He acheived the highest level. I was 3 or 4 levels down of the many possible (10 or 12?). A friend named Earl worked at the arcade where we would lock up when the mall closed and play until late in the night. This game would be killer, even today in concept.

Superfreaker

This due to that they both go against the initial description of what a FPS game is.

"A first-person shooter (FPS) is a computer or video game where the player's on-screen view of the game world simulates that of the character and the gameplay emphasizes shooting."

These games do not emphasize shooting and should therefore not be noted under this category.

Thank you for your contribution. While I agree with your removal of Thief, I've played Deus Ex and, while it is not all about shooting, a great deal of it is. Some of the gameplay involves stealth like Thief does, but is has enough shooting to merit it entry in this category.

Also, please sign your posts. You can do this with 3 or 4 tildes (~~~ or ~~~~). If you're concerned about privacy, get a free account. It gives you more privacy, not less. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:56, Aug 30, 2004 (UTC)

I felt that notable developers and small descriptions of their relevance were important for the page. It seems to me that having a list of exceptional games that contribute to the genre is one thing - but to exclude a list of the most popular developers is like not talking about specific bands or specific directors within the medium of music and film. Although game fans recognise series, they also recognise the names of developers and follow specific developers as much (if not more) then they follow specific franchises.

SpaceCow

There are mentions about Halo 2 and Half-Life2, but in slightly round words. I edited the HL2 part for clarity, but can someone who has actually played them make them more precise? --fbjon

Got it. Halo 2 might need more work though since it was gushing.

The bits on the newest games should probably be rewritten to emphasize their historical significance. (For example, it's not good enough to say "advanced AI" — every generation has had its own advanced AI, we must be specific on advancements/achievements and how they affected the genre.) --Mrwojo 01:49, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The first flat-polygon (hidden surface) game was the single-player Colony (1987?).

All the references I can find for a game called "Colony" in 1987 lead to "The Colony" by Mindscape, which appears to have been an RPG, rather than FPS.

In general, this history seems to have a gaping hole between the 1974 Spasim and the late-1980s offerings on the Atari ST/Amiga and contemporaries, with only Battlezone (1980) in the middle. Being bold, I've added a reference to the 1982 TRS80/Dragon32 game Phantom Slayer which, gameplay-wise, was undoubtedly an FPS (albeit graphically crude even by comparison with the earlier battlezone) There must be other examples in this period, surely?Blufive 16:04, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Right, I'm being bold. Hopefully I'll not upset anyone too much. I've mostly just re-arranged existing content (without deleting anything) and re-written things to try and improve the overall cohesion, so it doesn't read so much like a list of disconnected paragraphs. There are one or two additions in there, too, but nothing too contentious. Along the way, I've discovered that there are two pages out there covering mods: Mod (computer gaming) and Modding. There's some degree of overlap between these two articles, and they could probably do with some love to cross-link them and distinguish their subject matter and content. Blufive 00:59, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I linked computer gaming mod from modding and left a note on Talk:Modding. --Mrwojo 01:14, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Next up, I'm going to pound on the history section. Similar drill - I'll try to improve the grammar, add a little detail and sort stuff into better chronological order (the gaping hole I saw between 1980 and 1988 looks much less empty if I put all the 84/85/86/87 games in the right place) In the longer term, I'd appreciate any comments on some other changes that I have in mind for the future:

• Rescue on Fractalus. Every resource I can find seems to indicate that this is much more an arcade flight sim than an FPS - given the surrounding text, I think it's only there becase it was mentioned in the Romero interview mentioned above by User:Liftarn. I'm very tempted to delete it from this article.
• Selected important games/selected ground breaking games. These lists are mutually redundant, surely? If I'm being really picky, I'd even say that they were duplicating information that should be in the history section.
• Additional games. Surely, it would be better to link to the existing list of first-person shooters and merge any games not listed there?
• First FPS - it seems unclear whether this honour goes to Spasim (March 1974) or Maze War ("1973-1974"). Can anyone help resolve this?

I'd also like to say thanks to everyone who's been catching my typos/busted links and so on. Blufive 13:56, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

On a similar note, the game "Way Out!" also appears to be mentioned here purely because of the Romero interview. As far as I can tell, it was a relatively obscure labyrinth/maze game released in about 1982/1983 for the Commodore 64 and Apple II - further details are few and far between. Blufive 15:01, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I think that both lists of games should be removed from the article. The "notable" games should be mentioned in the history (or not at all if no one can explain why they're notable). The other list is best done through the categories/list articles. --Mrwojo 15:45, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I think BZFlag should be added to notable games. It's popular and GPL.

I haven't heard of it. Do you have data on how popular it might be?

Also, please sign your posts with ~~~~. Twinxor 08:36, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I combined the two versions of influential games into one. They're not really sorted much now although I put titles from the lower list more or less in chronological order. The reason for this was primarily because there was no difference. but in particular the bottom list had everything as series. While it was a good list of influential Titles, there is no FPS series that was influential, only the first game in each series or far future sequels like Doom3.

I'm going to change the statement at the top from shooting to combat because many FPS' use melee weapons or magic etc etc and so forth rather than actual guns. Also I changed it to "high percentage" because many borderline RPG/FPS' are still Doomy enough to enter the gates of the genre. This can probably be better stated but I feel my change brings it closer to the concensus.

Now to introduce myself. I run firstpersonshooters.org and as such consider myself somewhat of an expert. I've been following the genre since Wolf 3D which I played when I was supposed to be practicing with AutoCAD in my drafting classes in tech college. I started using AutoCAD to make maps of each level 'til I discovered it took a really long time and it'd already been done anyway.

I intend to make a lot of minor changes around here. Obviously my site is where the real work goes but I feel it's my duty to help guide the general knowledge of the genre in the right direction. If anyone feels uppity enough, go grab The List on my site and put them all in over here. Keep in mind that I don't inclde rail, mech, or vehicle based shooters on general principle. 65.41.159.213 20:08, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I would welcome any help on my site. There are myriad tasks to be undertaken including checking facts, gathering screenshots, etc etc. Pleast let me know if you're interested: advocate@landofthedragons.com

Thanks for the list merging. As I've already mentioned above, I'd personally prefer to move the list of games out of the article body altogether, and fall back on either the List of computer and video games by category#First-person shooters or the Category:First-person shooters. When we've got a dedicated list article, and an automated category list, having a manually-maintained one adding length to this article seems pointless. Must get around to actually doing that someday, since there didn't seem to be many objections when I mentioned it last time... Blufive 21:11, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Would it be a good idea to add this type of material for particular titles?

My site has all that stuff, but then since it's just me working on it and I'm poor it doesn't have that much exposure going for it atm. Perhaps there is some way to add a wiki extension over there? Perhaps I'll just keep doing my thing and let you all leech as hard as my connex allows. <Advocate>

ps. my site, firstpersonshooters.org is, has been, and always will be totally non-commercial, an encyclopedia for the genre

The main issue with screenshots is copyright. See Wikipedia:Copyrights. For the most part, I think a game screenshot would probably be considered |fair use, particularly if it's a publicity shot specifically released for press use by the game's makers. But I'm not a copyright lawyer, so don't take anything I say on the subject as gospel. Blufive 21:01, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I've moved the links to this site from the main body text to the external links section. While the list of games there is impressively comprehensive, linking to it with the first mention of the phrase "first person shooter" in the "overview" text of this article is getting far too close to self-promotion for comfort, IMO. To the anon contributor who added them (<advocate>?): thanks for your other edits, all good stuff and your help here is appreciated. Blufive 20:52, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The first link might arguably be considered inappropriate, but as for the one at the "other titles" section, self-promotion is irrelevant. My site is completely non-commercial, was specifically created to be a complete list/resource for the genre, and The List on my site spedifically fulfills the entire point of "other titles". So until someone copies it into here, I'm putting that link back.

As my tag-line on The List notes, this is the only comprehensive list of first person shooters in existance in the entire world. SO yes, toot my horn I must, but that too is irrelevant. It is what it is, and that happens to be perfect for a link as the first part of the "other titles" section. As far as it being "an attempt" it's the best anyone has ever done, and though it is not complete, it is easily over 95% complete. I welcome any help finding titles I missed (particularly in consoles since I haven't got any). <Advocate>

On second thought, I just imported my entire list to the *games sorted by genre* page and changed the link to there. Now you've got5 600+ FPS titles to play with, Don't even think about not crowning me FPS god!

My apologies if my initial comment was a little harsh; when I first saw some of your changes, my link-spam-detector went nuts. With hindsight, and having seen your other edits since, it's obvious that I was overreacting. Blufive 10:36, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)