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Critics about data concerning amount of rapes by Soviet soldiers
This article doesn't look really objective. There is a mention of a specific "Russian culture" which is surely patriarchal. Communist after they came to power gave a lot of rights to women. For example, USSR became the 1st country in the world that gave rights for abortion a right that in some countries of the civilized "Western World" (USA) is still restricted! Also, there is basically no critics for the studies mentioned in the article despite the fact that there are enough historians that indicated deficiency in the mentioned researches. Thus, most of the estimates that says millions of rapes are based on the book of Helke Sander and Barbara Johr. However, if you check how did they get these results, you'll see that they took data from single Berlin hospital (there were data if the woman was raped and if the father is Russian). They decided that if the father is Russian then the woman was raped (about 10% of cases based on data). Then, they said that in the entire Germany situation was exactly the same as in this single hospital! I believe that it's not good source based on authority (CRAAP) therefore even if you shall mention it you must show that there serious doubts about quality of this research! Next, this data about 100000 abortions after rape in Berlin. First of all it's not strictly 100000, but 20000 to 100000. Secondly, if the woman stated that she was raped the abortion was free. All she had to provide was written statement. Some historians (Antina Grossman) found several patterns in these statements that indicate that att least some of them were false. All the mentioned sources are already exist and used in the russian page of wikipedia https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Насилие_в_отношении_мирного_населения_Германии_в_конце_Второй_мировой_войны#Оценки_числа_изнасилованных. Hope, you'll soon correct the english article so, that readers would be provided with more correct information! Egor Bilialov (talk) 21:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because that's literally how they arrive at the two million figure?
Helke Sander used a statistical model to come up with the number of the rapes. She found a copy of a birth report from one of Berlin's hospitals for 1945 - 1947, and used it as a starting point.
According to this document, in 1945 in this hospital 237 women gave birth, and 12 or 13 of them claimed Russian fathers (in 1946, 21/567). From this, she concluded that about 5% of all children born between Sept 1945 - Aug 1946 were from the Russian soldiers.
Then she used a number of assumptions:
1. According to the official statistics, there were 23,124 new-born babies within this time period in Berlin. Assuming that the report from the above hospital was typical, she got 23,124 * 5% = 1,156 "Russian" babies;
2. Assume that 9 out of 10 raped women who got pregnant had an abortion. Then, the number of women who became pregnant from the rapes must be 1,156 *10 = 11,560;
3. Assume that pregnancy happened in 20% of the rapes. Then, the total number of rapes must be 11,560 * 5 = 57,800;
4. During the period, there were 600,000 women aged 18 - 45 in Berlin. So, 57,800/600,000 = 9.5% of them must have been raped;
5. According to Dr.Goebbels, the Russians raped all German women from 8 to 80 years old. Since during the period there were 800,000 women from 8 - 18 and 45-80 in Berlin, applying 9.5% ratio yielded additional 73,300 rape victims;
6. Therefore, the total number of Russian rapes in Berlin during the period was 73,300 + 57,800 = 131,100. For reasons unknown, she rounded down the number to 110,000;
7. Finally, assuming that the ratios were the same for the entire country,she extrapolated the above analysis on the Soviet-occupied Germany to arrive to 2,000,000 rapes.
Russian historians reject her work, pointing that if the same methodology is applied for the same period to the data from similar hospitals in Western Germany (occupied by the US, UK and France), the number of German women raped by the western allies would range between 3 - 13 million. IAmACowHello (talk) 10:35, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Non Wikipedia language
"though vast majority of Kalmyk male population fought heroically in the ranks of the Soviet Red Army."
This text needs to be removed it’s blatantly false that German fathers made their daughters give birth to rape babies at all that’s completely absurd and made up it doesn’t even make any sense because of “dishonor” that is insane i don’t know who the hell wrote that also German men did not shoot women for getting raped that’s equally as insane and to act like any sizable portion of German men were berating the women for getting raped is also completely ridiculous 2600:1702:4590:1D20:9AB:21F1:77AD:9620 (talk) 15:41, 5 March 2025 (UTC)
although some were forced to by their fathers because of their "dishonor", while others were shot and killed by their husbands for "consenting to sexual relations with Allied soldiers". Many German women were verbally abused by German soldiers on the streets or in their homes for being "Allied whores", while a lot of them even received threatening letters from German men.[reply]
Is there a reason the full statistics from R.M. Douglas are not mentioned?
The last section of the "U.S. Troops" section states:
The historian R.M. Douglas, analyzing the victim statements in U.S. Army Military Police files, noted that between January and July 1945, where the victims identified the race of their attacker, 6% of the attacks involving multiple perpetrators involved more than one race being identified, and 41% of the accounts that identified race identified the assailants as white.
The actual source states:
In cases where the perpetrator's race was identified, 41 percent of offenders were stated to be white, 52 pecent black, and 1 percent Latino. The remaining 6 percent of attackers participated in rape gangs in which more than a single race was represented.
I propose the section in the article be changed to the following:
The historian R.M. Douglas, analyzing the victim statements in U.S. Army Military Police files, noted that between January and July 1945, where the victims identified the race of their attacker, 6% of the attacks involving multiple perpetrators involved more than one race being identified, and 41% of the accounts identified the assailants as white, 52% as black, and 1% as Latino or Hispanic.
Done Hi TMR190 I have changed the text in the way you proposed, with one little change (adding "in cases"). About your question, we can only guess about the reason why something was written in a certain way, but my guess would be that the editor thought the text was too long and tried to summarise the most important parts. Lova Falk (talk) 12:35, 20 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Rape during the occupation of Germany
What I think should be changed (format using {tl not just women and girls were raped during the Holocaust and under German Nazi rule}):
Pointing out sexual violence that happens to women and girls but not to men and boys creates the gender role of men being the perpetrators and females being the victims. Gender roles lead to genderized violence by encouraging violence and taking away autonomy as well as authority from women then ignoring the pain and suffering of men who suffer the same injustices. It is disrespectful, false information, omission of truth, telling only half the story and deceptive to make sexual war crimes appear to only happen to women when they happen as much to men. It perpetuates the strong men patriarchal stereotype that women are weak/victims and men don't usually get raped and if they do then they are weak; all detrimental to our society falsehoods. Women also committ sexual war crimes as well, often rape against males is left out of studies and sometimes the very definition of rape is meant to portray it can only happen to people with vaginas by people with penises; this is factually & ethically wrong. :
References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):[1]
As Allied troops entered and occupied German territory during the later stages of World War II, mass rapes of men & women took place both in connection with combat operations and during the subsequent occupation of Germany by soldiers from all advancing Allied armies, although a majority of scholars agree that the records show that a majority of the rapes were committed by Soviet occupation troops.[1] The wartime rapes were followed by decades of silence.[2][3][4][5][6].
It needs to be changed to " As Allied troops entered and occupied German territory during the later stages of World War II, mass rapes of women took place both in connection with combat operations and during the subsequent occupation of Germany by soldiers from all advancing Allied armies, although a majority of scholars agree that the records show that a majority of the rapes were committed by Soviet occupation troops.[1] The wartime rapes were followed by decades of silence.[2][3][4][5][6]" ~2026-29266-3 (talk) 13:14, 14 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I am havimg issues with this site, the mass rape of women needs changed to the mass rape of men and women. You are only telling half the story when you exclude sexual war crimes against men. ~2026-29266-3 (talk) 13:15, 14 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I also want to high light how so many sexual sufferings of men have been omitted from history due to them not being women (the wrong sex is some historian's eyes). Historians are digging and uncovering more data to suggest that rape/sexual assault of men did occure in the Holocaust camps and invasions of towns. ~2026-29266-3 (talk) 19:05, 14 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Here is your proof and if it still isn't good enough then get me a supervisor because it is a over Google and Google AI helps. It is exhausting as a female and constantly being wrongfully assigned the weak victim role. It is crap like this that is why I got rape threats in the military and they showed terrible amounts of sexual violence against women on the ops floor: gender roles are to blame and ruin lives.
This is my attempt to hell fix things because as the yrs progress more research is being done on the male experience. It is wrong for historians to leave men out because it hurts their idea of how a mans role should be in society then hyper focus on the women. It is misogyny, misandrony, sexist, misleading and confirmation bias.
Evidence and historical research indicate that sexual violence, including torture, against men was perpetrated by Axis forces during World War II, although it has historically been under-researched and silenced due to social taboos. While often overshadowed by the immense scale of violence against women, reports show that male civilians, detainees, and combatants were subjected to sexual violence as a tool of war, humiliation, and terror. ~2026-29266-3 (talk) 19:40, 14 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is not a reliable source if I am finding wide ranges of information that talk about how men/boys are mass/systematically raped in times of war but bigoted people refuse to listen. You should remove the whole page if you're just going to point out what happened to women and not acknowledge what happened to the men; you're just perpetuating stereotypes/gender roles and that is so typical. ~2026-29266-3 (talk) 01:43, 15 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I will never donate to this site, colleges even teach how it isn't a reliable source, so congratulations on being part of the problem and not the solution. ~2026-29266-3 (talk) 01:44, 15 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I am finding wide ranges of information that talk about how men/boys are mass/systematically raped in times of war but bigoted people refuse to listen If you have reliable sources which talk about the mass rape of men and boys during the allied occupation of Germany, then you should provide those sources.
It needs to be linked into the Wikipedia topic that I mentioned, which only speaks about how it happened to women/girls. It needs to be mentioned that historians are working to uncover more data about males being massed raped because gender role, patriarchal systems work hard to ensure that data either doesn't get recorded or is removed. We need to do the responsible thing by bringing attention to it. It simply is not factually correct to just speak about what happened to the women/girls. I submitted several scholarly articles that were good enough. ~2026-31198-3 (talk) 09:50, 15 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can see you linked to one scholarly article, which does not mention sexual violence against men during the occupation of Germany once. As this article is about sexual violence during the occupation of Germany, we need sources about sexual violence during the occupation of Germany. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 10:09, 15 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Historian J. Robert Lilly's Taken by Force details U.S. troop rapes, while broader research by figures like Norman Naimark (focusing on Soviets) and reports from journalists like Osmar White provide context on widespread sexual violence.
the occupation of germany also mentioned soviets in the misinformation of just women/girls being mass raped ~2026-31198-3 (talk) 10:21, 15 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
this is why I included soviet in my information because the bigots who made the thread I am complaining about mentioned it ~2026-31198-3 (talk) 10:22, 15 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Lilly's book is about the rape of women. The section of the introduction entitled "How many victims?" doesn't mention male victims once. He describes one of the goals of his chapter on rape during the allied occupation of Germany as to describe and analyse the suffering that German women experienced at the hands of American soldiers and so far as I can tell doesn't mention a single case of rape with a male victim. None of this supports the change you are suggesting.
As for Naimark/White: when you are arguing for a change to be made, the onus is on you to provide the sources which support that change. Just vaguely pointing to authors who somewhere at some point might have written something that supports the change you want making is not compelling. Osmar White is already quoted in the article as discussing the rape of German women. If he talks somewhere about the mass rape of German men: where? Similarly, the Naimark book cited in the article talks about the Soviet mass rape of women (e.g., p. 72: It was not untypical for Soviet troops to rape every female over the age of twelve or thirteen in a village ... the reports of women subjected to gang rapes and ghastly nightly rapes are far too numerous to be considered isolated incidents). Where does Naimark discuss the mass rape of German men as a similar phenomenon? Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 15:43, 15 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Why don't you help search, too? Or does that go against the image society likes to paint about women being the victims always - which is false. It's common knowledge how gay men, Romano men, just men/boys in general faced rape via objects and castration.
I hope this site gets shut down, it's bot reliable and just spreads patriarchal propaganda. ~2026-31198-3 (talk) 12:31, 16 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
If it's such common knowledge, you should be able to produce sources that talk about it. You are the one arguing for a change: you need to cite sources that support the change you want making. The more sources you cite which do not support the change you want to make, the more it makes people think that we shouldn't make that change. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 15:30, 16 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
It has already been explained that this article is about rape during the Allied invasion and occupation of Germany, and has nothing to do with the Holocaust. That source is about sexual violence during the Holocaust. Also, please do not type in all capital letters, as it comes across as shouting. Day Creature (talk) 14:37, 16 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
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Done You are quite right! I removed heroically. Lova Falk (talk) 17:52, 11 April 2025 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Day Creature (talk) 02:48, 11 April 2025 (UTC)