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I read on the page for the SturmGewehr page that it was the first modern assault rifle, I'm just saying that that should be mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Benners88 (talk • contribs) 00:50, 4 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It is mentioned in the third paragraph of the lead section.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 01:08, 4 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've recently read about the Fedorov Avtomat. Isn't that technically the first assault rifle? I noticed it being mentioned above, but I don't get what the conclusion is. Is it or is it not, and why? --MaxRavenclaw (talk) 12:30, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Fedorov Avtomat doesn't fit the definition of assault rifle since it was chambered for the Japanese 6.5mm Arisaka "full power" rifle cartridge, and not an intermediate cartridge. Thomas.W ^talk 13:03, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You can argue that the first "assault rifle" appeared in California in recent decades, because it's the first time there was a legal definition of what "assault rifle" actually meant. Otherwise, just what do we mean by the term? Invented? In service? In bulk service? With the performance of a military rifle? As there aren't many of such (really just the AK47 / AKM in full calibre, and that's a short intermediate cartridge) as it's hard to control, most are about .23 calibre rather than .303. But how small can it go and still be a rifle, rather than a sub-machine gun?

The Avtomat has the problem that it's using a pretty useless cartridge, giving it the performance of a machine pistol. Nor can it use anything more powerful, owing to the overheating problem. Mostly though, it's just the limited numbers made - 100× as many Sturmgewehr than Avtomat.

I would disagree Thomas' point that the Avtomat cartridge is too large, as the 6.5 Arisaka cartridge is so low powered, even though it's a large case. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:13, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's the case and the weight that is the main difference between a rifle cartridge and an intermediate cartridge, not the power. A smaller and lighter case means that the soldier can carry more rounds (for the same weight), which he'll need if he is to have any practical use for an automatic weapon... Thomas.W ^talk 15:47, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

First, the U.S. Army/DoD published the first technical definition of the phrase "Assault Rifle" as far as I can find, it is the only definition that has been placed into LAW in any country, let alone three, which it has; America, and by definition NATO, Japan and England. By this legal definition, the Arisaka 6,5mm chambered Federov, was not an AR because of it's Caliber/cartridge case size and power and the .30 Caliber M-2 Carbine was an AR by every meaning of the many other definitions. See ammo chart below to see that the .30 caliber Carbine cartridge was easily "Effective" depending on the definition of that word to well over 500 yards depending on energy to kill, or wound, or to well over 300 Meters by trajectory. Then there is the part of the Army Definition, as opposed to the one found in Comic books and other secondary sources about "effective automatic fire", not just effective fire, more on this later. If the fire must be effective automatic fire, then Neither the StG-44, or the AK-47 are effective assault rifles as neither one of them can hit much of anything at 300 yards, or meters as you like. But some folks think that just scarring the hell out of them with suppressive fire is ok, then they both count as ARs. But then so do all the full power battle rifles with select fire switches. But the .30 Caliber Carbine can by virtue of it's anemic cartridge be very controllable in a superior way to any of the above rifles such to get many more HITS, not just scarring the hell out them! The StG-44 was the first AR to be put in the field by any Army! That is not open to dispute, but it was and still is a piece of crapola! Look up it's many defects as documented by those who know it for a fact! On the other hand, the American M-1/2 Carbine was and still is one of the sweetest rifles around! Which any knowledgeable shooter would rather have than the StG-44 if his life depended on it! ( Rather than being allowed to take a much more formidable rifle from the M-16 family of Assault Rifles!)

Ballistics Charts Back Cartridge Information Index Number Cartridge Type Weight (grs.) Bullet Style Primer No. Ballistic Coefficient R30CAR Remington® Express® 110 Soft Point 6 1/2 0.166 L30CR1 UMC® 110 Metal Case 6 1/2 0.166

Velocity (ft/sec) Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500 Remington® Express® 110 1990 1567 1236 1035 923 842 UMC® 110 1990 1567 1236 1035 923 842

Energy (ft-lbs) Cartridge_Type Bullet Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500 Remington® Express® 110 967 600 373 262 208 173 UMC® 110 967 600 373 262 208 173

Short-Range Trajectory Cartridge Type Bullet 50 100 150 200 250 300 Remington® Express® 110 0.6 zero -4.2 -12.9 -27.2 -48.6 UMC® 110 0.6 zero -4.2 -12.9 -27.2 -48.6

Long-Range Trajectory Cartridge Type Bullet 100 150 200 250 300 400 500 Remington® Express® 110 zero -4.2 -12.9 -27.2 -48.6 -116.6 -225.5 UMC® 110 zero -4.2 -12.9 -27.2 -48.6 -116.6 -225.5 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.228.153.99 (talk) 04:51, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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I noticed an incorrect bit stating that assault rifles are always fully automatic capable. The m16 and m4 have instead used 3 round burst instead of automatic. A better term would be selective fire, which is what is linked to anyway. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.122.184.152 (talk) 13:55, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The intro sentence was originally written as...

"An assault rifle is a selective-fire rifle that uses an intermediate cartridge and a detachable magazine."

The "fully automatic" term was added later. Therefore, I do not have a problem with removing the term. As I also find it somewhat redundant and technically incorrect (as stated above).--RAF910 (talk) 14:59, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Language evolves over time. All the sources saying an assault rifle has to be select fire are older than the people citing them. Meanwhile modern, current, mainstream, sources do not include the requirement for automatic in their definition - such as Meriam webster "any of various automatic or semiautomatic rifles with large capacity magazines designed for military use.", and dictionary.com includes a secondary definition "a nonmilitary weapon modeled on the military assault rifle, usually modified to allow only semiautomatic fire." President Obama used this definition in his recent address.

Therefore it is reasonable to conclude that, in the English language, the term 'assault rifle' has expanded to include the 'technically incorrect' of civilian semi-automatic rifles derived from military assault rifles. This usage of the term warrants mention in the first paragraph, if only to explain the technical inaccuracy of its usage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:603:4403:2A10:30A5:345E:D677:269 (talk) 04:59, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That's right. The NRA doesn't have a monopoly on defining firearms-related terms. One of the sources used is the Encyclopedia Britannica, says "In those countries where assault rifles can be purchased in the civilian market, their sale is subject to various restrictions, such as the elimination of automatic action and of the capacity to fire high-performance military ammunition." So even the article's own sources contradict the narrow definition that some editors insist upon. Felsic2 (talk) 18:49, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I know, the 11th commandment written by... was it moses on god's command wasn't "The definition of an assault rifle is bla bla bla". So, ever since that enormous oversight (who is this god person anyway?) I don't really know where an authoritative definition of "assault rifle" would come from. Take, for instance, the huge argument about which was the first "assault rifle". With some rifles having burst but not full auto some people just say select fire, but the semi auto only M27 seems to prove that even that is not a hard requirement which isn't a particularly shocking revelation. In the end, different experts probably have different definitions. It would be deceptive to say or imply that there is any one set in stone definition or that what does and does not fall into the assault rifle category, or that it is not subject to debate. Some editors might try to use original research on this page to argue that one definition is the one true definition or another definition is the one true definition or that there exists one true definition. I haven't looked into it, but presumably all that can be said is that the first "assault rifle" is subject to debate. Could it have been, for instance, the m1 carbine? The Vollmer M35? Where is the exact line between smg and aw ammunition? etc.TeeTylerToe (talk) 03:01, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, the definition does not require a gun to be selective fire to be an assault rifle. The term is very commonly used for any semi-automatic rifle of a military design or origin.--Dmol (talk) 03:41, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That's one part of it, yes. But the thing is, everything about the AR definition is subjective. An AR is a rifle that fires an "intermediate" round. A round is made up of the case, the propellant/charge, the bullet and the primer. It's obviously not the primer. Some famous examples use the bullet from an 8mm traditional rifle round, so it's not the bullet. So the variables you're looking at on the "a girl walks into a bear's house and finds three bowls of porridge, one too hot, one too cold, and one just right, and she also finds one round that's too "small", one round that's too "big", and what round's "just right"". The only levers you can change to change a round that's too big, say, 7.62x51, or 8mm mauser rifle to one that's "just right" are the size of the case and the grains of propellant. For instance, take the ww2 M1 carbine round. Where does it fall? Is it too small? Is it just right? Who can you ask to give you a definitive answer? Nobody. It's subjective. Was the ww2 M1 carbine an assault rifle? Who can you ask to give you a definitive answer? Nobody? Was the M2? It's subjective.TeeTylerToe (talk) 09:20, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the article...The article very specifically defines what is and what is not an assault rifle. Also, the article already has the "Assault rifles vs. assault weapons" section. Which already explains the differences between the Technical definition versus Political definition.--RAF910 (talk) 10:07, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So who's to say if .30 carbine is a smg/pistol cartridge or "intermediate"? 5.45x39mm? Is the m27 iar an "assault weapon"? Who's to say? Who draws the line that distinguishes what is and isn't an AR? I know that the version in the article now was reached simply by an editor using various references they personally agreed with ignoring the references they disagreed with.TeeTylerToe (talk) 10:42, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• The definition used in the article is the standard technical/military definition, in common use throughout the world. People can have whatever opinion they want about anything, including about what an "assault rifle" is or isn't, but Wikipedia isn't a politically correct "encyclopaedia" aimed at pleasing people in the US who feel that all guns of all kinds are eeevil, and repeatedly try to widen the definition of "assault rifle" to include everything from a BB-gun to a hunting rifle so that they seem to be eeevil too, but an uncensored international English language encyclopaedia with information that is correct, whether some people like it or not. Meaning that the only definition of "assault rifle" that belongs in this article is the technically correct one, that is the one that is in the article now. Period. Thomas.W ^talk 11:44, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The definitions of words are not set in stone, as an earlier poster said. Meanings and usage change. The common definition of "assault rifle", including the one at the Encyclopedia Britannica, includes weapons that are available with either semi-automatic or select-fire actions. While you seem to be attacking people, including editors, for using the term it's used even by a policeman who was previously in active service in Iraq.[1] Don't use broad brushes and outlandish claims to tar others over a simple content dispute. All commonly used definitions of the term should be included. Felsic2 (talk) 18:45, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia doesn't use new terms or definitions until they're so thoroughly established that they're mainstream, not fringe. The very wide definition of assault rifle that you seem to promote is mainly used in the US, and only used by a limited segment of the population, and thus doesn't belong here. Thomas.W ^talk 19:39, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So you're saying that the reference to some semi-automatic rilfes as "assault rifles" is a violation of WP:FRINGE? Or is there a different policy you're talking about when you discuss what "Wikipedia doesn't" do? Felsic2 (talk) 20:22, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Referring to semi-automatic rifles as 'assault rifles' is fringe in the sense that it doesn't fit the established, mainstream, definition of 'assault rifle'. And as long as it isn't the mainstream definition, i.e. the internationally by far most widely used definition, it doesn't belong in the article. And please don't make the common mistake of confusing 'assault rifle' with 'assault weapon', a US legal term for firearms with certain features that has nothing whatsoever to do with this article... Thomas.W ^talk 11:34, 25 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The right way to do it would simply be to have a sentence, paragraph, or section devoted to the civilian usage of the term. How about "In civilian usage, 'assault rifle' may also refer to semi-automatic rifles of similar construction". Or, "Assault rifles are sold for the civilian market with semi-automatic actions". Felsic2 (talk) 14:41, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It would definitely not be "the right way to do it". We use the correct definition of the term, period. And assault rifles are definitely not sold with semi-automatic actions on the civilian market, semi-automatic rifles that look like assault rifles but aren't assault rifles (since they're semi-automatic only) are sold on the civilian market, though. And stop trying to sneak biased anti-gun terminology into articles here. Thomas.W ^talk 14:59, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The very first source in the article, Encylopedia Britannica, says so.[2]. Is it wrong?

Please don't smear me with personal attacks and assumptions of bad faith. There's no place for that here. Felsic2 (talk) 15:06, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Encyclopaedia Britannica is partly user generated, and in many cases of dubious value as a source. And the rest of your post is just plain silly, I haven't made any personal attack, and never do, all I did was ask you to stop your repeated attempts to change the definition of assault rifle away from the long-standing technically correct definition that is used now to a very broad definition that is commonly used in anti-gun circles, in order to make semi-automatic rifles look as more of a menace than they are (see another post of mine a few steps up in this thread), and has no place here. Thomas.W ^talk 15:22, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The article already has the "Assault rifles vs. assault weapons" section....It is clear that Felsic2 wants to fundamentally change the article to match his point-of-view. However, he knows that he does not have a consensus do so. And, if he makes the changes on his own, they will be reverted, there will be an edit war, he will lose and he will be blocked...So, it seems that he is desperately trying to get "the camels nose under the tent". Well, I say NO. It's a short word, easy to spell, means the same thing in dozens of languages. The answer is NO--RAF910 (talk) 15:18, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Is the SKS an AR? Is the M27 iar? What exactly is a "battle rifle"? What exactly is an "intermediate round"? Some rifles commonly labeled "Assault rifle" have select fire that includes full auto but not burst, some have burst but not full auto. Do these newer burst rifles qualify? When did the definition of AR change to accommodate these newer burst rifles? When did the definition of AR stop changing to accommodate developments like the development of the m27 iar? What sources are accepted as being qualified to define which rifles are ARs and which and what sources aren't? What reliable source says that there is no debate over which round is intermediate and which isn't or which rifle is an AR or which isn't, or which rifle was the first AR? If god did come down to earth to give man a precise, definitive definition of the AR then it should just be a matter of bookkeeping to determine which rifle was the first AR, which rounds are intermediate, and to settle all the disputes about ARs. So, someone please tell me when man was visited by god so that god could pass to man the precise definition of what is and isn't an AR.TeeTylerToe (talk) 18:38, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)(edit conflict) Per Lead, "The lead should identify the topic and summarize the body of the article with appropriate weight." Since we do have a "Assault rifles vs. assault weapons" section in the article, there does need to be something about that in the Lead that summarizes that section. It should make it clear that the two terms aren't synonymous, but are sometimes used interchangeably. It shouldn't overwhelm the Lead, but something does need to be there. - BilCat (talk) 18:42, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]