Military history: Technology / Weaponry

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I once heard that Team Fortress introduced sniper rifles in computer games (maybe only FPSs). Does anyone know if there is truth to the statement? I can't say that I know of any prior sniper rifle... -- Philip Nilsson

"Military sniper rifles tend to have longer barrels of around 300 mm to allow the cartridge propellant to fully burn and get the fastest bullet velocity for a given charge." is clearly incorrect or at least poorly worded. 300mm isn't even a foot long!

I dont know what the right length should be, but 300mm is about 1 foot, so it cant be correct.say1988 16:55, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

Just to demonstrate, a few lengths are: M-16 (standard US assault rifle, not sniper rifle)=508mm (just for comparison), G3=450mm, M-21=560mm, Dragunov=610mm, M24 SWS=610mm, M40 =610mm, L96=686mm, M82A1=737mm, Steyr IWS 2000=1200mm.

Based on these numbers (all off of weapons listed on this page, excluding most "designated marsmanship rifles", because most listed there are just slightly modified assault rifles) I think that it should probably be 600mm and I will change it to that, if anyone doesnt like my research, just change it back.say1988 17:17, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

Also "There is no correlation between barrel length and accuracy"? I have always believed that longer barrels (to a point) are more accurate, also on the sniper page there are a list of reasons why barrel length is important to accuracy. (resonant length, rifling, etc.)say1988 17:25, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

*Keep in mind that shorter barrels are stiffer which also allows for greater accuracy. Not extremely short barrels, but more like a 24 inch barrel vs. a 26 inch barrel.

In my experience, the article is correct: barrel length does not appreciably effect accuracy. There are a number of secondary effects, such as rifle weight, muzzle velocity, sight radius (not applicable to optically sighted rifles), muzzle blast, etc., that effect practical accuracy, but the effect on the precision of the rifle itself is negligible. 600mm sounds about right for a military sniper rifle.

Scientific barrels used to test the accuracy of ammunition are extremely short, perhaps only 10 inches or so. They are the most accurate barrels there are. Longer barrels have more resonant frequencies than short barrels, so the shorter the better. The sacrifice is muzzle velocity. Qwasty 17:40, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

this article is badly in need of a rework. I changed a few things here and there, and then completely rewrote the introduction with more specific details on what a sniper rifle is. Hopefully that will get the other editors off on the right foot to make this article more educational. There's a great deal of interest from the public on sniper rifles, and a great deal of paranoia as well, and I think it's important for this article to be a good one. Qwasty 18:13, 12 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

What are some usual zoom levels for a sniper rifle scope and how far can you shoot accuately for each zoom level? Wizrdwarts 02:10, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The picture of the soldier holding the M21 is from the movie 'Blackhawk Down' and is not an actual special operations soldier. -anonymous 23 JUN 2006

If you're talking about the first picture, he's A) not special forces and its B) not from BHD. That is a real picture of a US Army soldier in Iraq with what is more likely an M14. -- Thatguy96 22:20, 23 June 2006

I have reverted the recent changes made by an anonymous user. I can appreciate that they changed the order of the features (telescope, caliber, action, stock) to correspond with the order of the intro's bulleted list of features, but these features were listed in order of importance and should remain in this order. I have returned the original order and simplified the lead-in paragraph. Other changes made by this user were also reverted in the process, but they were not correct either: "It can be broadly defined as a rifle used for selective destruction of targets from a concealed position" could apply to any rifle and sheds no light on the particular nature of sniper rifles, which the original sentence did (that they are used at greater distances than normal rifles) and concealment is also outside of the scope of these rifle's designs and relates more to the human role as any rifle can be concealed in the same manner. Deon Steyn 14:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the order that I created was the order than sniper rifles are designed and assembled in. First, an action is selected and accurized, then a barrel is selected and fitted to it, and finally the assembled components are bedded in a stock. Technically, the scope is not even a part of the rifle, it is an accessory.

Also, sniper rifles are not any different from ordinary rifles, contrary to public opinion. Usually it is the accessories, or the rifle reassembly techniques that make it slightly different, and even then, it's still not much different from any other accurized rifle. The idea that a "sniper rifle" is a special type of rifle stems from military efforts at standardization. They produce a specific model of rifle, give it a name, and then class it as a sniper rifle, when in reality, it's just a regular rifle that's been ordered in an identical large lot.

Lastly, one of the most popular sniper rifles in drug enforcement is the lowly .22 caliber. It's used at ranges under 25 meters to kill sentry dogs and remove lights in a quiet manner. So, in short, the only common thing about a sniper rifle, and sniping generally, is that it is done with stealth, from a concealed position.

Qwasty 17:33, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I should add that the primary differences between ordinary off-the-shelf rifles and sniper rifles are as follows (and should be in the article somewhere, maybe I'll do it)

• the stock is designed for prone firing, usually mcmillan A3, A4, or one of the other similar mcmillan models
• The rifle is usually just an ordinary rifle that has been "tweaked" in the assembly process to increase accuracy, but not as much as a competition rifle would be, in order to allow space in the component tolerances for dirt and grime
• The scope usually is adjustable only in large increments, such as mils, for simplicity reasons. This obviously reduces accuracy, but enhances proper use under stress. Specifically, scopes selected for sniper use contain Ballistic Drop Compensator cams (BDC's) tuned to the rifle's type of ammunition (.308, .270, etc), rather than fine adjustment knobs. This makes the scopes very simple, reliable, and "idiot proof".

Qwasty 17:55, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The order of design/assembly is totally arbitrary and tells us absolutely nothing about this type of rifle or what distinguishes it from other rifles. This order of assembly and specifics like "bedding the action" is also only relevant to some types of modern sniper rifles, you forget entire sections of history (world war 2) and entire classes of weapons (semi-automatic sniper rifles). The order I listed is explained in the introductory paragraph of the section as the order of importance in setting this type of rifles apart from "normal" rifles, e.g. the most important distinguishing features are 1) telescopic site etc.

Your list of "most important differences" is also completely inaccurate, because you only consider the very limited area of modern american/european designs (e.g. mcmillan stocks) again forgetting entire sections of history (world war 2) and entire classes of weapons (semi-automatic sniper rifles).

Once again, the way it these rifles are used (you said: "So, in short, the only common thing about a sniper rifle, and sniping generally, is that it is done with stealth, from a concealed position") is completely arbitrary and also tells us nothing of this specific type of rifle, if one applies your logic the silenced .22 pistol would be called a "sniper rifle". You are confusing the role of "sniping" (please see it's own article Sniper) with this article which describes a specialised type of rifle most often employed by snipers, but not all weapons used for shooting from concealed postions. Deon Steyn 06:57, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please add your extra detailed info regarding the telescopic sights (to the paragraph covering that. Deon Steyn 07:06, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's exactly my point. There's little if any difference in sniper rifles and ordinary rifles. If you compare WWII era "sporting" rifles with "sniper" rifles from the same era, you'll see that they're virtually identical. If you compare modern equivalents, once again, they're virtually identical.

And yes, as a matter of fact, .22 caliber pistols ARE used for sniper work in special circumstances. There's an entire section on pistol sniping in Maj. John Plaster's Ultimate Sniper book. Like all other sniping weapons, there's no difference between sniping pistols and other pistols used for, say, varmint hunting.

About the ordering, semi automatics are assembled in much the same way as bolt actions. First an action is selected, accurized, and then a barrel is fitted. Both require bedding in a stock, whether it be antique wood, or modern fiberglass, there is no difference. The importance of a scope is not unique to sniper rifles either, and, as I mentioned before, it's an accessory, not a rifle component.

There's no distinguishing features of sniper rifles that allow you to say "AHA! This rifle must be a sniper rifle because it has such and such". So, it's not really a class of rifle at all, it's an application of the rifle. Some organizations mass produce a custom design to their specifications, give it a model number, and call it a sniper rifle - but in reality, it's just another custom rifle that would blend in with all the others if it weren't for the fancy model number printed on the side.

Qwasty 09:19, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I like teh parts you added about accuracy (that competition arms may be more accurate etc.).

As for the rest, please listen carefully to the distinction I am trying to make between components and distinuishing features. This section was never meant to be about the components that make up a sniper rifle. This section is there exactly because – as you rightly point out – sniper rifles are soo similar to ordinary rifles, therefor I wanted to have a section describing the things one might find on a sniper rifle that sets it apart from another rifles employed in a military environment, e.g. it would probably have a telescopic sight, secondly it might be bolt-action which would otherwise be unusial for an individual soldier's rifle, thirdly it might be of a more unusual caliber (7.62 instead of more commn 5.56, thirdly it would have unusual adjustable stocks. This section - which I should have called "Distinguishing features" doesn't make much sense now... first it includes paragraphs and then the whole "components" thing you are obsessed with... clearly all rifles are made from these components, a sniper RIFLE is by implication a RIFLE and if someone wants to know what a rifle is made of they can look at that page. They way you describe these components are also not accurate (pardon the pun hehe), because not all sniper rifles are assembeled this way (action first accurized etc.) some are mass produced semi-auto rifles that are just slapped together some have been normal rifles manufactured like any other that someone just stuck a scope on after the fact.

As for sniper pistols again you miss the point, anything can be used in a sniping role, but that doesn't make it a SNIPER RIFLE, which is what this page is about. Deon Steyn 13:42, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The following statement is also very far from the truth: Nearly all sniper rifles are variations or adaptations of existing rifles. The only notable exceptions are rifles based on the .338 Lapua cartridge, which is ammunition specifically designed for modern sniper needs. The Dragunov Sniper Rifle is one of many more rifles designed specifically for sniping sharing almost no components with any other rifle, other examples are Walther WA 2000, Heckler & Koch PSG1 etc. etc. etc. You keep limiting yourself to current western developments. Deon Steyn 13:55, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We're getting closer to reaching a consensus on this issue. I had completely forgotten about the PSG1, which I think uses a custom action, and I know nothing about the walther you mentioned. As for the Dragunov, if remember correctly it still uses a common AK action that's been accurized or otherwise slightly improved. However, even with the PSG1, I can't think of any distinguishing feature of it's design or operation that would indicate that it's designed solely for killing people, rather than say, glass bottles.

One thing that I should try to impress upon you is my point of view that motivates me to steer this article away from labeling "sniper rifles" as a unique class of rifle. Firstly, gun control advocates will read this, and they want to know what types for rifles to try to ban. Since I stand by my assertion that nearly all sniper rifles are merely ordinary rifles that are being used for the task of sniping, differentiating is impossible. If a law is passed somewhere that says sniper rifles are illegal, does that mean M40A3's are illegal, or does it mean that any rifle that has camouflage paint on it is illegal?

I think you're probably right about getting rid most details about components and construction. However, it may be necessary to discuss it only as far as is necessary to point out that sniper rifles are not really much different from ordinary rifles, and in fact, in cases of accuracy, they may be intentionally designed to be less accurate than their components and technology would otherwise allow them to be.

Nonetheless, most sniper rifles in service today are simply made from an off-the-shelf remington 700 action, an unremarkable barrel, and perhaps a stock that's slightly different from the norm. The only difference from a factory Remington 700 and an M40 military issue sniper rifle is that the components are accurized, and then more care is taken in assembling them. In short, it's just a "rebuilt" Rem 700.

I think these facts need to be clear in this article. Granted, it wipes away much of the awe, mystique, and even hatred surrounding a "sniper rifle", but it is the truth, and that is what wikipedia is for.

One approach that may solve some disputes is to mention that sniper rifles are just slightly more accurate versions of regular rifles (or something that touches on that topic), and then from then forward focus solely on specific models of rifle that are called "sniper rifles" by their manufacturers or purchasers. That's why I put in the phrase "This article will focus on aspects of rifles that are well-suited for sniping, with specific information on important models of sniper rifles." in the introduction.

There would be very little to write about - other than accessories such as stocks, drag bags, and scopes - if this article didn't focus on specific models designated as sniper rifles. It's like the subtle difference between ordinary cars, sports cars, and race cars. Well, in the case of the rifles, I think there's vastly less difference, since in the cars you can use numbers such as power to weight ratios or whatever. There's no similar way to quantify what a sniper rifle IS. Sniper rifles are essentially just rifles that are used sneakily, AKA, sniping.

Anyway, I think we're making some progress here towards crafting a truly fine and authoritative article on sniper rifles. We've fleshed out quite a lot of the core features of what this article should contain. We're by no means finished, but progress inevitably leads toward perfection.

67.166.121.148 18:50, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I added a new heading for your nice paragraph on accuracy and trimmed down our clarified and trimmed down our "features" section into "distinguishing features" to which I also gave your paragraph on accessories it's own heading, which is an important distinguisging feature as you point out. Deon Steyn 14:14, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The cheap and very common Remington 700 action is the most commonly selected action in police sniper rifles, it should be mentioned with a cite from somewhere. I don't remember for sure off the top of my head, but I think the current US military rifles are built on that action also.

I also think the sections on bolt actions versus semi automatics should be moved under the actions section, and more attention should be given to the types of actions normally selected for sniper rifles (basically cheap ones, that are easy to accurize).

Qwasty 17:55, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]