Talk:Deir Yassin massacre: Difference between revisions

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:::Can you produce your sources here on this page, apart from Gelber's paper, so we can read through them? <font color="blue">[[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|talk|]]</font><font color="green">[[Special:Contributions/SlimVirgin|contribs]]</font></sup></small> 06:20, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
:::Can you produce your sources here on this page, apart from Gelber's paper, so we can read through them? <font color="blue">[[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|talk|]]</font><font color="green">[[Special:Contributions/SlimVirgin|contribs]]</font></sup></small> 06:20, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
:::Now the problem is sourcing? I didn't know it was disputed. You even said there was some fighting. And there is a guy (Morris I think?) that is a preferred source of some editors and is already used to source it says it. I found them all last time in 5 minutes of searching so will be happy to do it again just to make a point. I am off to bed in a bit so will compile them all tomorrow sometime. I'll try to make sure they are better than decent.[[User:Cptnono|Cptnono]] ([[User talk:Cptnono|talk]]) 06:25, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
:::Now the problem is sourcing? I didn't know it was disputed. You even said there was some fighting. And there is a guy (Morris I think?) that is a preferred source of some editors and is already used to source it says it. I found them all last time in 5 minutes of searching so will be happy to do it again just to make a point. I am off to bed in a bit so will compile them all tomorrow sometime. I'll try to make sure they are better than decent.[[User:Cptnono|Cptnono]] ([[User talk:Cptnono|talk]]) 06:25, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

:::SlimVirgin, thanks for breathing common sense into the discussion. Oh course it is not a "fierce battle," as the latest edit would have us suggest, simply because some villagers might have resisted their murderers. Imagine the mess if we applied this absurd counterlogic to other articles in the project. Of course the users pushing for "battle" are only doing so in selected articles. [[User:RomaC|<font color="#006600" face="Felix Titling">'''RomaC'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:RomaC#top|<font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman">TALK</font>]]</sup></small> 06:41, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
:::SlimVirgin, thanks for breathing common sense into the discussion. Oh course it is not a "fierce battle," as the latest edit would have us suggest, simply because some villagers might have resisted their murderers. Imagine the mess if we applied this absurd counterlogic to other articles in the project. Of course the users pushing for "battle" are only doing so in selected articles. [[User:RomaC|<font color="#006600" face="Felix Titling">'''RomaC'''</font>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:RomaC#top|<font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman">TALK</font>]]</sup></small> 06:41, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Revision as of 07:01, 12 August 2010

Parking some material

Parking this here until I work out where to put it:

"Some of the fighters alleged that they had shot women only because some male villagers had dressed as women. Yehoshua Gorodentchik of the Irgun said the fighters had, "found men dressed as women and therefore they began to shoot at women who did not hasten to go down to the place designated for gathering the prisoners."[1] Yair Tsaban was one of several youths who joined the burial team on April 12:

"What we saw were [dead] women, young children, and old men. What shocked us was at least two or three cases of old men dressed in women's clothes. I remember entering the living room of a certain house. In the far corner was a small woman with her back towards the door, sitting dead. When we reached the body we saw an old man with a beard. My conclusion was that what happened in the village so terrorized these old men that they knew being old men would not save them. They hoped that if they were seen as old women that would save them."[2]"

Yeshurun Shiff, an adjutant to David Shaltiel, district commander of the Haganah in Jerusalem, was in Deir Yassin on April 9 and April 12. He wrote: "[The attackers chose] to kill anybody they found alive as though every living thing in the village was the enemy and they could only think 'kill them all.'... It was a lovely spring day, the almond trees were in bloom, the flowers were out and everywhere there was the stench of the dead, the thick smell of blood, and the terrible odor of the corpses burning in the quarry."[3]

Suggested name change

I suggest that this be renamed the "Battle of Deir Yassin". Many of the Arab "villagers" killed were armed combatants, civilians do not seem to have been the prime targets due to Israeli warnings and calls to surrender, and 4 Jewish militiamen were also killed and dozens wounded. I don't think that qualifies as a "massacre".--RM (Be my friend) 04:48, 3 August 2010 (UTC) [reply]

Support:

Oppose:

There are several pages. Mind being more specific?Cptnono (talk) 05:32, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Archive 3, 4, 5, 5 again, 6, 6 again, 7 (where RolandR helpfully gathered a list of links to previous debates on the issue), and 7 again. That's 8 separate discussions, the last two of which were less than three months ago, and there may be other ones that I've missed. --Andrensath (talk | contribs) 06:43, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not again. The same old refuted argument that the killed people were no villagers. Has anybody seen the list of names? I have the list of names. Most killed are members of 9 clans = extended families. 17, 22, 6, 7, 10, 4, 8, 10 and 10 members killed respectively. The baker, his son and the school teacher. 26 were below 15 years old, 2 were toddlers. 20 were 55 and older. This repeated propaganda driven call to obscure this massacre does one thing, and that is spit on the graves of the people that were murdered during the massacre. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 12:22, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • What a random person on the internet thinks qualifies as a massacre is irrelevant. What matters is what the sources say, and the source say that this was both a massacre and is known as the Deir Yassin Massacre, That is the end of the story as far as Wikipedia is concerned. nableezy - 13:52, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Compromise or something

This is not a good compromise.] There has been plenty of bickering and reverting over what some see as POV issues. To address these and be more factually accurate, we should simply say in the lead that yes: some villagers were armed. And yes: some of the attackers died. I agree that ti should mention that there is a dispute over what happened but that does not sufficiently cover that there was some fighting as well as massacring. Cptnono (talk) 05:37, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Cptnono, this article has been carefully written and sourced, and does its best to reflect the entirety of the mainstream sources. There is widespread consensus that this was a massacre; even Gelber—who introduces the idea that it might have been a battle—calls it a massacre through his article, arguing that it wasn't the worst one of the war (writing here from memory). Any attempt to introduce the idea in the lead that this was really just a battle would only reflect a very narrow POV, and indeed would contradict the rest of the lead and the fact that people at the time felt the need to apologize for it. That POV can be included in the body of the article, but the lead can't reflect it without in-text attribution, which is why I added Gelber's view that the narrative is disputed. Even that is pushing it somewhat, because it really isn't much disputed, at least not in the terms you're suggesting.
Also, as I've argued before and as seems obvious, just because villagers own weapons, and just because they try to use those weapons to defend themselves when their village is invaded, doesn't mean a massacre didn't take place. Several editors on this and similar articles seem to take the view that the Palestinians weren't allowed to defend themselves, and the minute they did, they turned into a militia and fair game. That's a fairly odd view to take of human nature and human rights. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 05:59, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It very well might have been done carefully but it was done incorrectly. Go ahead and say there was a massacre but some mention of some battling (defensive or not) needs to be mentioned more in the lead. And if I wanted to discuss human rights I would go to a more appropriate venue.Cptnono (talk) 06:13, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Can you produce your sources here on this page, apart from Gelber's paper, so we can read through them? SlimVirgin talk|contribs 06:20, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Now the problem is sourcing? I didn't know it was disputed. You even said there was some fighting. And there is a guy (Morris I think?) that is a preferred source of some editors and is already used to source it says it. I found them all last time in 5 minutes of searching so will be happy to do it again just to make a point. I am off to bed in a bit so will compile them all tomorrow sometime. I'll try to make sure they are better than decent.Cptnono (talk) 06:25, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
SlimVirgin, thanks for breathing common sense into the discussion. Oh course it is not a "fierce battle," as the latest edit would have us suggest, simply because some villagers might have resisted their murderers. Imagine the mess if we applied this absurd counterlogic to other articles in the project. Of course the users pushing for "battle" are only doing so in selected articles. RomaC TALK 06:41, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ Statement of Yehoshua Gorodentchik, file 1/10 4-K, Jabotinsky Archives.
  2. ^ Silver 1998, pp. 93–95.
  3. ^ Collins & Lapierre 1972, p. 280.
allikas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special%3ADiff%2F378497435