This page was created on January 16, 2005 (one day after Wikipedia Day). It is the equivalent of MediaWiki:Sitenotice except that it shows up only for unregistered (anonymous) users. According to the developers, by either deleting this page or setting it to -, MediaWiki software will fall back to the SiteNotice. Flcelloguy (A note?) 03:45, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(copied from MediaWiki talk:Sitenotice)

Upon request, Robchurch has created a version of the sitenotice only viewable by anonymous users (ie, most of our readers; the target audience for requesting donations), at MediaWiki:Anonnotice (not yet live). I'll ask the CFO and/or board members about this, but I think one of them originally suggested the idea. So, we would be blanking this one, and putting some form of it in the anon-only version. Comments? — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-01-16 02:12

• I've read the above discussion and can't understand why. Are registered users not supposed to donate? Flcelloguy (A note?) 02:22, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, both Jimbo and Mav have said that they don't expect editors to donate, since they already donate their time. Assuming that most of the non-editing readers are anons, this would be the best solution that would both target the largest audience while not causing an annoyance for regular editors (see any of this page for the annoyance I speak of :)). — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-01-16 02:25

• This would solve all the problems. Ambi 02:30, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not really since it means that the people inflicting inconvience on others don't experence it themselves. It also weakens our hand in our next clash with bugmenot. It also presents posible long term problems with meatpupets.Geni 02:36, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Geni, since you seem to feel so strongly about these notices, what alternative approach to financing would you like to see? Dragons flight 02:41, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Link more prominat in the side bar. Makeing the wikipedia logo link to the donations page rather than the main page. Looking to increase the sucess of fundraiseing drives. Getting mechendise produced by anyone other than cafepress (both pennny arcade and slahdot use thinkgeek I don't know what terms they would offer wikipedia though). There are many options.Geni 02:51, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks to Rob for creating the possibility of this compromise. I think showing this to non-logged in users, and keeping just the donate link in the sidebar for logged-in users, should definitely be trialed. I don't want to make a permanent decision before we've seen the financial effects of this, so it should be done as an experiment which can be reviewed after a few weeks. If the anon version is used all the time, I would still like the sitenotice to be used during actual fundraising drives since it's important for everyone to be aware of these. Please keep whatever goes in the anon version tasteful. I'd hate to see it become an over-the-top demand for money just because regular users don't have to put up with it. Angela. 02:37, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does this mean no blinking text-decoration? :) — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-01-16 02:59

• Neat! This would solve lots of problems. But I'd still like to do something with the sitenotice during fundraisers. ---mav 02:42, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • That would be the idea. Keep the regular sitenotice for important matters, and during fundraising events. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-01-16 02:58

Brion has added MediaWiki:Anonnotice. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-01-16 03:07

As Brian says, this is now live. During fundraisers, delete the anon. notice or set it to - - MediaWiki will fall back to MediaWiki:Sitenotice, if it exists, so you can standardise. Rob Church (talk) 03:20, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I notice that they have the same CSS style and placement, should I understand from your comment that only one will work at a time? If so, which has precedence? Dragons flight 04:33, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. If it wasn't clear already, anonnotice is shown to anonymous users when it exists, otherwise sitenotice is shown if that exists. Logged in users see sitenotice if that exists, else nothing. Rob Church (talk) 11:33, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yay, this is great! Despite my criticism of this notice, and my continuing concerns that permanently asking for money is what beggars on the street do with little success and much damage to their reputation, at least this version is properly targetted. I would be keen to see the notice return here during the quarterly fundraisers. -Splash^talk 03:22, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yay! Everybody is happy mav

Great job, guys! Thanks! I agree with Angela, though, that this should probably be just a test at first - in my opinion, registered users would be more likely to donate than unregistered users, but I guess we'll see. I doubt this is possible, but is there a way to see (or perhaps ask?) when someone donates whether or not s/he is a registered user? Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note?) 03:41, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to modify Mediawiki:Monobook.css to avoid pushing down the entire header line with the notice, as I find that to be quite tacky. Despite tests showing it worked for IE and Netscape, my method (setting a negative bottom margin on #siteNotice) was quickly reverted by a firefox user who said it failed for him. Regardless, I would still like to talk about finding a way to not offset the header line just for the sake of the notice. Dragons flight 04:33, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• I would generally agree; the problem is that in Firefox, the entire page moves up 25 pixels, and the header text was overlapping the tabs, making it impossible to click them. Ral315 (talk) 21:22, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• What happens when page names are so long that they overlap the notice? — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-01-16 22:09
  • I don't think they overlap - the sitenotice (or anonnotice) is higher up than the title. For instance, log out (in order to see the anonnotice) and check out this wonderful article: Donaudampfschiffahrtselektrizitätenhauptbetriebswerkbauunterbeamtengesellschaft. Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note?) 00:52, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also check out Rinderkennzeichnungs- und Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz - the title is broken up into two lines (because of the space, I think) and the anonnotice is still placed higher up. Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note?) 00:54, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • They don't overlap at present because of that extra whitespace. My proposed solution to the extra whitespace (that failed because Firefox and IE can't agree on how to render CSS) would have placed them on the same line and then they would have overlapped in cases such as you cite. I would still like to do something, i.e. higher/lower/etc., to avoid injecting the blank space between the page title and the top of the page, especially since it now seems that the notice will be semi-permanent. Dragons flight 01:02, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I meant if the change was instituted so that anonnotice was on the same line as titles. If you're looking for the longest title: How Hedley Hopkins Did a Dare, robbed a grave, made a new friend who might not have really been there at all, and while he was at it committed a terrible sin which everyone was doing even though he didn't know it. :) — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-01-17 01:02

Should we at least word this so we're no resorting to Jimmy's personal appeal, which will likely loose its meaning if we don't reserve it for when we really need it.--cj | talk 03:44, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• I would suggest leaving it as is for a week, to try and gauge how much of a difference there is in focusing on anons only. After that, I would switch it to something simple like "Thank you for your continued donations." — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-01-16 03:49
  • Jimmy's appeal has obviously led to an increase in donations. My concern is that in continuing to use his appeal now, when we really needn't, users of Wikipedia will be less responsive to a future personal appeal. Shouldn't we just direct readers to the donation page rather than over-use the appeal?--cj | talk 04:39, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • The appeal has led to a big increase in donations. We are still very much in need of funds (if we plan on lasting for more than a year). I think this appeal is a one-time thing, since a second appeal would look kind of odd, as you suggeted. So, we should try to milk this thing for all we can. The next time we're likely to see such an appeal is when the site is going to shut down out of lack of funds. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-01-16 04:43
      • Your claim is not consistant with previous statements and actions of the board.Geni 12:51, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Can you be more specific?? — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-01-17 14:12

          We know that major appeals are regualar accurence. We also have this quote from mav:

          "The problem is that non-fundraiser donation totals are way, way smaller than is healthy. Look at October About as much was taken in that *whole month* as a below average *day* in this last fund drive. I would like to get at least several fund drive equivalent days per non-fund drive month. --mav 03:29, 10 January 2006 (UTC)"

          It doesn't make much sense unless we assume plans for further funding drives.Geni 14:21, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

          • Of course there will be more fund drives. I'm talking about personal appeals from Jimbo. There won't be more personal appeals, I don't think, unless they are absolutely necessary. This is the first time Jimbo has done such a thing, and it really stimulated the fundraiser, but I doubt he could repeatedly release such personal appeals and have the same effect. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-01-17 14:30

CJ, your concern is one that is held widely. However a small number of very vocal people - e.g. Brian - are choosing to ignore these concerns. You are, of course, absolutely right, but I for one am tired of battling those who cannot see other's points of view (and seem to pull stuff out of thin air, like the statement "The next time we're likely to see such an appeal is when the site is going to shut down out of lack of funds", which is pure conjecture). Dan100 (Talk) 09:31, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• A bit overdramatic, don't you think? I only suggested the wording remain for a while so we could see what sort of an effect switching from all-users to anon-only would have. I really doubt that Jimbo is going to regularly put out such desperate appeals. The only time I could see him putting out another one is when we are really in need of funding, such as.... when the site is about to go down. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-01-17 14:12

Maybe we can decide on a lower limit. As soon as donations drop below that point, we could say that the personal appeal has served its purpose, and move on to something else. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-01-17 14:15

This is having an unfortunate side effect of appearing in all Google searches. Wikipedia results now start "Please read Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales's personal appeal. ... " before giving any details about the topic. I think this is a significant problem. violet/riga (t) 20:27, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Whatever we place in there will also be on Google. Jimbo seemed to like it, as his name now has more hits than Jesus and the Beatles combined :) — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-01-25 20:36
• The only thing I can think of to solve this is to turn it into a picture. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-01-25 20:38
• According to Brion, it can also be done with javascript. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-01-25 20:40
  • You know we could just do what de,fr,pl,ja,it,sv,nl,pt and es (ie all the other ones around the centeral globe) have done.Geni 23:55, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't think it's really a problem. It's just more advertising for us, and really it's something Google needs to fix, not us (at least, that was the opinion the devs shared when I talked to them). — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-01-26 00:16
      • I am holding my tongue on what I think of the recent decisions regarding this and the sitenotice by you and your fellow devs lest I get blocked for WP:NPA but I'll leave it to say that you guys are stuck in your own little world since very few people support your arbitary decisions both on this notice and on the sitenotice and you seem fit to push it on everyone with zero approval by lording the fact that your a dev over us. Jtkiefer^{T | C | @} ---- 01:20, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Since it's something we did, IMO it's something we should fix - at least as far as not having it show up in Google results. That's counterproductive. —Matthew Brown (T:C) 01:24, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well I would remove it once and for all and be done with it but I know for a fact that I would be reverted if I did so since some people can't stand the thought of not having a notice stating that Jimbo is begging for money on the main page. Jtkiefer^{T | C | @} ---- 01:27, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have deleted the notice at least until it can be fixed since it is clearly broken especially since it's currently showing up in google results before the actual content which is clearly harmful. Jtkiefer^{T | C | @} ---- 01:31, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Google doesn't update their index every day. There was no need to delete the notice; if something needs to be done, it can be done before Google updates. In case you've forgotten the people who supported this, I'll copy it above for you. See #Anon-only_version. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-01-26 02:08

Problem is that google doesn't spider the whole site in one go. The result is the longer it is up there the worse the situation gets. See [1] where it hasn't hit yet and [2] where it has.Geni 02:21, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I figure that instead of just complaining the constructive thing would be to think up ideas on how to fix this. The ones so far:

• Picture
• Javascript

Jtkiefer^{T | C | @} ---- 02:12, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Thank you for finally trying to work this out. I've asked Lupin and LockeCole about javascript. The only problem with a picture would be that it wouldn't scale like text does. According to the devs, we should be telling Google to ignore it; they (avar, brion, etc) say that it is Google's problem, not ours. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-01-26 02:16
• I see that Geni appears to believe this is yet another chance (YAC) to go on a blanking spree, as was done with Anthere and Mav repeated times before. Just an observation. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-01-26 02:21
  • Sorry about my use of rollback. A bit trigger happy :) — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-01-26 02:25
  • Well you know how it is. The minutes of the meeting still are not online. We do have something though [3]. Of course the report of the Financial committee wont turn up until 11 February so it is open to question if the minutes of the meeting will be of significance to this issue.Geni 02:28, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • • We have the opinions of several of the people that were in that meeting already. A few of them are above in #Anon-only_version. That's why Anonnotice was created. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-01-26 02:32
  • Brian, believe me when I tell you that I am tempted to revert you and to keep it blanked since unless Jimbo or the board states otherwise the wiki isn't going to end tommorow just because we don't have this notice but our ability to get google results that people will actually follow to wikipedia is immediately hampered by the fact that people are getting crap when they see a wikipedia result on their google search. Jtkiefer^{T | C | @} ---- 02:30, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • You just said above that you were going to work on discussing it. Now, suddenly, you want to revert and screw discussion? I've talked to several people about fixing this. How many have you talked to? — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-01-26 02:32
    • I would rather figure this out with the notice intact than to blank the notice and lose a potential $4000/day. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-01-26 02:34

You misunderstand me, I'm not going to revert you, at least not until we can try to fix it first if that fails then yes I will unless you can prove an impending financial crisis. I am willing to discuss fixing this but you seem to have some thought that the wiki will fail if we have this down for one second even if it is totally fucking up google results. Jtkiefer^{T | C | @} ----

Could you give me a search term that would show this fuck up? I Googled a few terms within en.wikipedia.org and did not see anything odd. Google generates a lot of traffic for us, so we should try to fix things in a way where we keep the message and Google searches remain useful. --mav 03:01, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• I just had a thought, will mediawiki allow us to use a meta tag or equivalent coding to stop google from indexing that one element? Jtkiefer^{T | C | @} ---- 02:43, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Can't the text be placed at the end of the screen (either by changing where anonnotice goes, or by moving the notice to the footer message) but made to display at the top using CSS with something like { position:absolute; top: 50px; left:200px; }? That way, Google and people with CSS disabled will see it at the end but most users will see it at the top. Angela. 02:42, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

/me shudders at the browser conflicts that would cause. Jtkiefer^{T | C | @} ---- 02:44, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Seriously though, that might work but it could very easily cause browser compatibility issues. Jtkiefer^{T | C | @} ---- 02:45, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Non-CSS browsers should just see it in another place (like in the footer). I don't see why it should break anything. Angela. 02:47, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• I'm also hesitant to use CSS, since I've seen some weird things happen when people try this. It might be possible, but I'd rather try javascript (although using Javascript would mean alienating some % of people with javascript disabled). — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-01-26 02:49

Please don't do anything that will alienate those not using JavaScript. Isn't it possible to have it do something else for those people, or just not show at all? Angela. 03:00, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think in the long run a Footer/CSS solution is the best option. Keep in mind that all the page control buttons (discussion, edit, history, etc) and the User buttons (my talk, my watchlist, etc) are already written in a page footer and moved to the top by CSS exactly because we want Google to index the content first. Dragons flight 03:23, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]