Agree with this as soon as "The two most common usages are " from the quote above will be retained --windyhead (talk) 20:31, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure that any commonality assertion is necessary though, much less a dual one like that, and we should still paraphrase the Britannica in the first sentence to give the best scope to the opening sentence of this article. Perhaps, changing "In a more specific sense,..." to "In a common specific sense,..." would appease? --Modocc (talk) 21:42, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've got a feeling we are going to end up deciding to stay with the status quo, but I think we should try to do better than "common specific sense", which sounds like adjectives piled on by committee. How about changing the second sentence of the proposed new version to: "As strong atheism, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities."? --Tryptofish (talk) 21:55, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sure that Wikipedia's copy editors would see that suggestion as an improvement. :-) --Modocc (talk) 22:31, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I aim to please! :-) So:

Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. As strong atheism, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, it is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is distinguished from theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.

--Tryptofish (talk) 23:17, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I like this last version. However, I think the sentence beginning with "Most inclusively..." should be removed as it is only a rephrasing of the first.--Heyitspeter (talk) 03:13, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nevermind. According to the Britannica article here, it seems that, contra Modocc and in line with my understanding, Atheism is not the rejection of belief in the existence of deities:

"Atheism is also distinguished from agnosticism, which leaves open the question whether there is a god or not, professing to find the questions unanswered or unanswerable."

Can anyone find a citation for the 'inclusive' definition of Atheism.--Heyitspeter (talk) 04:05, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

All 3 defs are cited fully in the wp article, such as Atheism#cite_note-1 --JimWae (talk) 04:20, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Neilsen's EB article is available here

• He begins: This article will start with what have been some widely accepted, but still in various ways mistaken or misleading, definitions of atheism and move to more adequate formulations that better capture the full range of atheist thought and more clearly separate unbelief from belief and atheism from agnosticism.
• He does not give his def of atheism until the last section -- Comprehensive definition of atheism --JimWae (talk) 04:26, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

When I wrote that most recent version in this talk, just above, I didn't bother including the references, because I assumed that we would continue to use the same references that are on the page now, put into the places to which they correspond. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:13, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

At the current point I would say that Britannica is a much better description of the concept than we currently have. We seem to forget that the authors of Explicit and Strong Atheism define quite strongly the position of Weak and Implicit first, with the understanding of "without belief in theism" and a position of passive atheism. So any changes we make to this definition should reflect that point. That we at least first put the understanding of without belief, and then we can broaden the understanding with a rejection view. -- Muthsera (talk) 15:34, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Very much the opposite. Britannica (Kai Neilsen) does not mention "absence of belief" (nor any form of so-called "implicit atheism") at all. Nagel (see Implicit and explicit atheism#cite note-1) covers it, but specifically says "sheer unbelief" of a child (implicit atheism) is not atheism at all. The "rejection" def encompasses explicit atheism. It includes both explicit weak and explicit strong, but does NOT include "implicit weak", thus is distinct from the "absence" def.--JimWae (talk) 19:15, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There Nagel is basically stating the argument of Atheistic denial, which is based on the argument that Atheism has the burden of disproof. Few atheist philosophers/authors agree with this. Smith at least lays out a case why disproving Theism is strengthening the position of Atheism. There is an argument to be made for that. But Nagel here seems to take a theistic position. Which by all logical arguments would be incorrect as it's impossible to disprove the negative. I also notice that it's not used as a source for Explicit vs Implicit just critical atheism. In all honesty it shouldn't even be linked to that article. As it clearly disputes Implicit atheism which Smith lays out. So I would advise that it is taken out, it only confuses the argument. -- Muthsera (talk) 04:10, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, again. There is no burden of "proof" on atheists for Nagel. No proof is possible either way, anyway. True, Nagel is interested in, and his article is titled, Philosophical Concepts of Atheism - so he is going to be interested in the presentation of arguments. One's interest in the arguments does not mean one has the burden of "proof" - but if the arguments of the opposing side cannot be met, then one would be wise to re-examine one's position. Nagel, as a philosopher, is concerned to meet and overturn the theistic arguments - as are Smith and Martin too.

But for the layperson, all one needs to say when presented with the option of theism is "no thanks, I don't believe". Citing any reason such as Occam's razor is not even a requirement, but, cited or not, it is more than sufficient to place a burden of "argument" on the theist.

You seem to be adding a requirement that refs for an article have to support every idea in the article. Cannot disagree enough with that. Some of the best refs dispute the legitimacy of ideas in an article.

Defining atheism as an absence of belief (which, without further qualification, would allow ants [and much more] to be atheists) avoids the claim that atheism itself requires a leap of faith. However, atheism as "rejection of theistic belief" also avoids that claim. As far as I am concerned, "implicit atheism" is a sophistic fallacy that leads to calling all sorts of things (like mathematics and worms) atheistic -- an abuse of the term, atheism. Still, I strongly support including a NPOV coverage of the "absence" def in this article. --JimWae (talk) 06:05, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One does not have to prove something is not true in order to justify rejecting belief that it is true. I do not need to prove that humanity will not be destroyed in 2012 to justify rejecting belief in such. I can even say it is possible that humanity will be destroyed in 2012, and still reject belief in it. I do not even need to hear arguments (neither for nor against it) to reject it & dismiss it from consideration. I might listen to the "arguments" & even be able to explain why they are unworthy, but that does not do anything to change the probability of it actually happening either. --JimWae (talk) 08:26, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's not that he has to agree with every aspect. But you cannot use him there once he is clearly in conflict with the position. He only supports a view of Atheism being a rejection. But that isn't really what Smith lays out. He says that your by default until you have a clear position, to be considered an atheist. Nagel clearly opposes that. You then cannot use him as a source for Explicit vs Implicit, because he doesn't recognize that devision at all. He has also entirely different reasons for going to that step of critique. Then it's dishonest to use him as a source for that as he in reality has another concept. -- Muthsera (talk) 15:51, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Secondly. Can you post a greater part of Nagel's argument? Because the source posted on Nagel clearly states that he supports the notion of atheistic denial.

"I shall understand by "atheism" a critique and a denial of the major claims of all varieties of theism... atheism is not to be identified with sheer unbelief."

He doesn't lay out an argument for coming to that position at all. He just states thats how he understand it. And builds on the argument from there. At any rate. According to the source you have there. He must be understood as holding a position of "atheism needing to disprove theism". That is a theist understanding of atheism. Which no atheist agrees with. Because it lays the burden of proof on disproving the negative. -- Muthsera (talk) 15:51, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Further discussion of Nagel's reasons is not about how to improve this article. Nagel opposes identifying the so-called "implicit atheism" as atheism because (as already cited) such is not "denying theistic claims". His view is relevant to the Explicit/implicit article (and to this one too). It does not matter whether (as you say) "no [other] atheist agrees with [him]" (which is false anyway). Atheists do not have to "disprove theism", but if they want to be considered as being rational (never mind philosophical) about their view, they need to have some response to theistic claims - which Smith & Martin (neither of whom are implicit atheists) do at length. --JimWae (talk) 19:08, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Muthsera is contravening WP:SYNTHESIS. If I can quote directly from Nagel's original Philosophical concepts of atheism, as originally printed in "Basic Beliefs", ed. Johnson E. Fairchild. New York: Sheridan House, 1959, pp.166-186:

As I see it, atheistic philosophies fall into two major groups: I) those which hold that the theistic doctrine is meaningful, but reject it either on the ground that, a) the positive evidence for it is insufficient, or b) the negative evidence is quite overwhelming; and 2) those who hold that the theistic thesis is not even meaningful, and reject it a) as just nonsense or b) as literally meaningless but interpreting it as a symbolic rendering of human ideals, thus reading the theistic thesis in a sense that most believers in theism would disavow. (p.170)

Thus, Nagel (who Edwards follows quite closely in his own later typology) does not hold that atheism is required to disprove theism. --Dannyno (talk) 19:40, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Dannyno, The first definition Nagel has used there is what Dan Dennett calls "Belief in Belief". It is therefor not completely the same argument that Smith or Harris makes on passive disbelief (although very close). And I would claim that it's still in line with the "Atheistic denial" position. The second one is clearly within that notion. And taken the source Jim posted. I think it's pretty clear that he still consider Atheism as a denial of Theism. -- Muthsera (talk) 20:08, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Jim, I wasn't speculating about his motives. I simply requested more quotes as the statement you made on the thinking wasn't supported in the quote supplied from Nagel. But one cannot use that quotation to line Nagel with Smith's argument of implicit vs explicit. Because he clearly defined his understanding of Atheism as a denial and critique of theism. That is so far from Smith's argument that it simply doesn't follow. Dannyno indicated it is WP:SYNTHESIS, and I believe that is right. You've mixed two concept which was on different levels in the argument. I agree however that you can use both as an indication of rejection being part of atheism. But on different arguments. Take that source out of Explicit and move it into the concept of "Atheistic Denial". -- Muthsera (talk) 20:08, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Nagel quote is not meant to be used "to line Nagel with Smith" (if that is what you meant). It is a reference supporting the sentence Although Ernest Nagel's position[2] contradicts Smith's definition of atheism as merely "absence of theism" It also presents an opposing viewpoint - per WP:NPOV. And, yes, opposition to the very idea of "implicit atheism" does need to be treated more fully in that article, but in the main body of the article rather than in a subsection -- and not with the ambiguous title you have suggested. --JimWae (talk) 20:17, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, when someone makes out the claim of atheism is a denial of theism. It derives a different position. You basically say that you agree that there are evidence for the existence of deity/deities and that non-believers need to disprove that. That is not on the same level of position Smith has. Which is that criticism of theism is the defense of Atheism. Smith says that clearly in his definition of Explicit. Those are two entirely different positions on the criticism of theism and doesn't belong together at all. -- Muthsera (talk) 20:34, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

According to WP:NPOV, reliably sourced opposing views merit inclusion --JimWae (talk) 20:42, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, if they talk about the same thing. But Nagel here doesn't talk about Implicit and Explicit. Both talk about Atheism rejecting Theism but on different levels. They are in two different concept of arguments. You cannot use one of them to merit the other. Nagel here follows the position of theism who says atheism need to disprove theism and thus rejects it. That is one argument. Smith here says that Atheism rejects Theism is a defense of Atheism. As the lack of Theism reverts to Atheism. This article doesn't reflect those two camps at all. You see them as the same argument, when they are really not anywhere related. They belong to different stratas in the Atheistic argument. I agree that both arguments should be reflected in this article to follow WP:NPOV. But not in the way it is done now. This is primarily because we haven't described the "Burden of Proof" argument in "Theism vs Atheism" at all. Who has the responsibility to prove the positive claim. -- Muthsera (talk) 21:03, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is difficult to know what to respond to when you are not using clear English. The paragraph (which was there before I added the source) says that Nagel & Smith agree on how to subdivide explicit atheism into 3 parts - and they do mostly agree (Nagel not calling it "explicit", however, and using "reject belief" instead of "I do not believe"). They also disagree re implicit atheism. The section (in that OTHER article), should probably just be named "Types of explicit atheism". I do agree that that paragraph should perhaps not say they have an identical classification - but that should be taken up at Talk:Implicit and explicit atheism, not here.--JimWae (talk) 21:26, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, I know what you meant with that. But a concise rejection of Theism as an Atheist isn't simply defined as Explicit Atheist. Only some do define it as that. Therefor Nagel's argument doesn't belong in there. That said. It was not me who related it to this text. That was someone else. And it was used as a support to show that Atheism is a rejection of Theism. It is really that what we're discussing here. You have two forms of defining Atheism as a rejection of Theism. One is the Theist position that Atheism is in denial of Theism and thus in rejects it. The other is the Explicit Atheist who say that Atheistic rejection of Theism is a defense of Atheism. Those are to entirely different positions. Where that comes clearly out is Implicit Atheism. As Atheists (Smith in this case) define Atheism as the default position. And Theist defines Atheists as rejectionists to Theism. It's is therefor important to highlight the first discussion which position is Atheism. Does it have the burden of disproving Theism or does Theism have the burden of providing the positive proof. If you follow all these authors. They lay out a position on that first. Then they move on to further defining Atheism. Did I explain that fully? Or was it something which was unclear still? -- Muthsera (talk) 21:40, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You write using several incomplete sentences, with other syntactical problems also. You will have to attempt better English syntax to be understood. At this point, I do not see the relevance of your "points" to improving any article at all -- & doubt very much that (no matter how much you respond) we will ever find any relevance to THIS article. I might try as counterpoint that "Smith & Martin are both explicit atheists & both reject theistic belief" and "since when is rejection itself a defense?" and "There are numerous atheist writers who consider implicit atheism bogus" and "among scholars anyway, BOTH sides have a burden to argue (not prove)", but there is little hope of accomplishing dialog when there is no point I can see in what you wrote - so counterpoints become wasted energy. Nagel's name appears nowhere in this article. So again, if you must persist on this topic, Take it to the other article--JimWae (talk) 22:17, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This book is written from the perspective of critical atheism. Its basic thesis is that the belief in god is entirely unsupported—and, further, that there are many reasons for not believing in a god. If theism is destroyed intellectually, the grounds for believing in a god collapse, and one is rationally obliged not to believe in a god—or, in other words, one is obliged to be atheistic. This book is not a critique of theism plus a defense of atheism: the critique of theism is the defense of atheism. Atheism is not the absence of belief in god plus certain positive beliefs: atheism is the absence of belief in god. If we can show theism to be unsupported, false or nonsensical, then we have simultaneously established the validity of atheism. This is why the case for atheism is The Case Against God.

That is Smiths rejection. It is wholly different from Nagel's Atheistic rejection. This is what we where trying to determine, how to view the Atheistic rejection. And how to put it into context which all the sources. If that isn't relevant. Then I don't know what is. And if we are to disregard Nagel in this. Then its utterly clear. That the definition of Atheism is primarily a default position. Which we then can further explain the positions of atheistic rejection. Because Smith and Martin CLEARLY says this with "Implicit" and "Weak". Which was my original argument here. I'm trying to give you a context in which to view Nagel. -- Muthsera (talk) 22:37, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

read and ignored as irrelevant to this article. --JimWae (talk) 22:43, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Would you care to explain why it's irrelevant? Or is it a case of inability/unwillingness to understand the argument? -- Muthsera (talk) 22:52, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As I see it, you seem to mainly want 2 things 1> to state that theists have the burden of proof 2> to have the absence def be the primary def.

There is already a pending proposal for a change -- which has been siderailed. Try to make your point in 1 to 3 clear and complete sentences, then present a wording that could be inserted in THIS article. (leave Nagel out of it).--JimWae (talk) 23:14, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, I see your objection more clearly. On the first part. The Burden of Proof argument is the primary argument when it comes to Theism vs Atheism. So I believe that should be reflected in the article. But I will maintain that the answer to that must be the logical conclusion that Wikipedia takes the position that the positive claim has the burden of proof.

Secondly. If you look up above to our discussion. I started with saying that the lead or the start of the definition of Atheism must reflect the notion that Atheism is the passive/default position. As those authors who we have sourced on Atheistic rejection (Smith and Martin), who we consider the source for atheism being a rejection. First lay forward the argument of non belief (Implicit and Weak). And then go on to describe Atheism also as a rejection (Explicit and Strong). I would claim that I've been pretty consistent in that view. And my objective on Nagel was to explain why Nagel didn't fit into that understanding. As he really holds the position of a Theist understanding Atheistic denial. Nor was I the one who introduced him in this discussion. Now that you say it has to do with another article and belongs there. I'm happy to ignore him. You'll have no quarrel with me on that. But it leaves out the notion that Atheism is primarily a rejection. Which only a few authors subscribe to. Other Atheists authors like Harris claim that "Atheism" shouldn't even be a term. As one is not defined by what one does NOT do. That cannot be understood in the context of "Atheism" being a rejection. Hitchens goes on to claim that he is not so much an "Atheist" as he is an "Anti Theist". That follow the same understanding that you are what you do or believe, not what you don't do or don't believe. This is increasingly important distinction for later Atheists. When we then consider Smiths own words for why Atheism should also be Explicit. That the eroding of Theism is the validation of Non belief. Although I'm sure many Atheist agrees with this notion. They do not define their non belief as such. I propose we therefor write it something like this:

Atheism is an absence of a belief in a deity or deities. Some Atheist also include that Atheism is a rejection of Theism as this could be considered a defense of Atheism. Theist sometimes maintain that Atheism is a denial of Theism.

Although that is a horrible lead. I don't know how to get around it to be WP:NPOV. -- Muthsera (talk) 00:04, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Muthsera, "Some" and "sometimes" are weasel words that are being inappropriately used in your proposal to define agendas of "Some Atheists" and "Theists sometimes". None of which are lede worthy and the placing of the absence definition as our introductory definition has been rejected here many times for being a NPOV violation for the reason that it gives too much weight to a small minority view. --Modocc (talk) 15:38, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I won't quarrel that it's a bad lede. It was just to illustrate the different positions. That said. I'll be perfectly happy to exclude both. I also agree that it's taking to much weight on a minority position. If that is the problem just do the simple definition of "a"theism = without theism. I can't think of a more NPOV than that. -- Muthsera (talk) 10:55, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Muthsera: Please read WP:NPOV--JimWae (talk) 22:08, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Muthsera: Harris doesn't say that atheism "cannot even be a term". He just didn't think that atheists should label themselves as atheists, which is a quite different point. --Dannyno (talk) 18:08, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In the discussion above, the last revision of "in a broad sense" was:

Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. As strong atheism, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, it is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is distinguished from theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.

Each of the three definitions presented are different ways that atheism has been distinguished from theism, and all three defintions have been present in the lead since this article became a Featured Article and each have had the citations needed for inclusion in the lede. The most inclusive definition is last however because the most authoritative sources have not made it a primary definition. This proposal paraphrases the Britannica Encyclopedia's opening definition and goes on to distinguish between the definitions thoroughly. --Modocc (talk) 16:32, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it is perennially difficult to follow the thread in this talk. :-) Anyway, I would be quite satisfied with this version, and I also do not object particularly to what we have on the page now. Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:02, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh for crying out loud. Again with the rejection? Have we not gone two weeks of arguing why this isn't the case. One cannot start out with that. Only some Atheist use this definition of rejection under Explicit and Strong and even then they focused first on Implicit and Weak, they only include rejection as a means to defend non belief. And it's only those Theist who claim Atheism is a denial of Theism who use rejection a primary term for Atheism. That is by definition the wrong position as one cannot disprove the negative. So I strongly object to this notion that we start out with rejection. We've used many pages on discussing that point and here people just ignore it again. Start with the pure definition of disbelief or non belief, then move on to include the positions of rejection. -- Muthsera (talk) 11:12, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Muthsera, yes again with the rejection, and in more ways than one. You seem to be making the claim that most sources make the nonbelief definition primary, when they do not, thus it is not going to be primary here. The sources do however regard disbelief as a common definition, because disbelief involves a rejection of belief, a fact that you seem to be overlooking occasionally in your advocacy for the default of nonbelief. There is a significant difference between a rejection asserting the negative, "there is no god" (claimed by some that this needs proof) verses the much simpler rejection or denial of believing a theistic claim or theory involving a deity. Both forms of rejection are reasonable. But with the latter form of rejection, only the merits of the claims matter and these can be dismissed as unsound, unwarranted or incomprehensible without a burden to prove the negative. The burden is on the theist to make a convincing case for the existence of their particular deity. Your assertion that rejection puts a burden on the atheist is just not true and has been dismissed repeatedly, ie rejected. Please respond briefly here, and continue in another section detailing any suggestions you may have for this article that better explicates the default of nonbelief or the burden of proof (which is mentioned in the article). --Modocc (talk) 14:08, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Would you kindly provide some sources for that position. As your leaving out ambivalent and unaware in that definition. Which Smith, Martin, Harris, Hitchens, Dennett, Dawkins all include in their definitions. You basically want the primary use to be a Theistic view of Atheism. As that is the only option left where rejection is a primary definition. -- Muthsera (talk) 21:17, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Muthsera1: The sources are presented in the first paragraph of the current article.

@Muthsera2: All you have provided for your claim that the rejection def puts the burden of proof on the atheist is YOUR own claim and your OWN interpretation of Smith. But that would not matter anyway -- WP:NPOV requires we present all reliably-sourced definitions. --JimWae (talk) 22:10, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1.You only used encyclopedias to get to that definition? I cannot control what they have based their arguments on. I only see statements on their definitions. I'm surprised you take such heed to them.

2.That is not my interpretation of Smith. That is what Smith actually says. I've given quotes for this several times. He clearly states that Implicit is non belief. Either from unaware or ambivalent or refusal to take a position. He has NOT stated anywhere that disbelief in theism is Atheism. Martin to, who has been used as a basis for rejection, says that the Greece word "a"=without "theos"=god(s) is the initial understanding and is what he considers negative, positive is the affirmed position that there is no god, not that it's a denial. You cannot then take those two, and use their positive and explicit terms to make denial the primary term. When that is said. I've supplied sources for the burden of proof argument many times. It simply has been ignored. Russell says this, Dawkins says this, Harris says this. Dannett says this, Hitchens says this, Smith says this. Most use Russell's Teapot argument to illustrate that though. And it's not mentioned with one word. Not once. For THE key argument towards who has the burden of proof. At this point I'm very well tempted to accuse many here of incompetence and blindly following other encyclopedias. But I understand that it's very hard to follow these long arguments. And they are complicated at times as well as very fragmented. But then don't accuse me of unsupported arguments when I've supplied them several times. I also find it telling that it has been left out absolutely crucial sources in this article. Bertrand Russell isn't even listed in this article.^[1] -- Muthsera (talk) 23:55, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Smith says the absence def does not have the burden of proof. You have provided nothing showing Smith or Martin or anyone but yourself thinks rejectionists have the burden of proof. You either do not know what you are talking about or you are not expressing yourself well. You choose. You should presume that I ignore most of what you write. It is mostly poor syntax & it would be improper for me to "fill in" what "I think you meant to say"--JimWae (talk) 00:39, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Your right in that Smith only says that Theism and Explicit needs a positive affirmation. And that Implicit is the neutral or passive position. He also states that Theism and Atheism holds the entire specter. You wouldn't have that separation at all if he understood it such that Atheism had the burden of disproof or needed supplied proof of inexistent. Then he would include Agnosticism in it as undecided. He doesn't, in fact he separates it as a different issue. Smith is very much in line with Russell here. You simply haven't understood how he excludes positions with his statements. I maintain that as true since you didn't understand how to position unaware babies even though he says so clearly. Same goes for Martin as his negative is non belief and his Strong is more narrow. -- Muthsera (talk) 00:58, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone, including an unaware baby, who does not believe that deities exist (including but not limited to those that believe deities do not exist) is not a theist and is therefore an atheist, in the broadest sense. --Born2cycle (talk) 01:15, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes thats what I've been saying, we cannot then use Smith to start out with a narrow sense of rejection. -- Muthsera (talk) 01:23, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Muthsera: Are you even trying to write good English? Are you even trying to be understood? Are you even trying to understand?--JimWae (talk) 01:31, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry. You lost me. At what point didn't I understand what? -- Muthsera (talk) 01:51, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Your discussion is hard to follow, but I agree with Muthsera on at least this point: we shouldn't start out with a narrow sense of rejection. I'm unclear as to Jim's position on this. Starting with the narrow sense might have been appropriate in a 1960s encyclopedia in the era of Madalyn Murray O'Hair, but no longer. The meaning and connotation of atheism continues to evolve. But I agree with Jim that Muthsera would be easier to read and understand if his comments weren't riddled with grammatical errors and misspellings. --Born2cycle (talk) 17:52, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Muthera is mainly incoherent, but he simply wrong to say that Smith states that explicit atheism requires a "positive affirmation". In fact, Smith clearly states that "explicit atheism" should be conceptualised as "absence of theistic belief" just as implicit atheism is. It's worth pointing out, again, that influential though Smith has been, his typology is only one of several in the literature. Muthsera concentrates on him to the exclusion of others, and we need to remind ourselves of the requirements of NPOV. --Dannyno (talk) 18:06, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Even Smith was published almost 40 years ago (1974). The narrow rejection sense probably was in most common use back then, but that's no longer the case, and this article, especially the lead, should reflect that. We can't rely on 40 year old references to establish most common usage today. --Born2cycle (talk) 18:42, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't mind reflecting "common usage", if we can properly establish what that is. However, we should also adequately reflect the different conceptualisations of atheism as a specialist technical term. And I would say that the latter should get top billing, because its the specialist meanings of the term that the article is about. Otherwise you'd be in a situation where the article on, say, inferiority complex had to give more space to the popular understanding of that term rather than the very different meaning it actually has in psychology. It's also worth noting that "rejection" isn't necessarily as narrow as all that. --Dannyno (talk) 20:42, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have a question, and it really is a question—I'm really asking because I do not understand. Forum-talk aside, is what we are discussing here whether to: (a) write about the three definitions in the order shown at the top of this talk thread, or (b) keep them in the order that is on the page now? Is there anything else about the lead, other than the choice between these two orders of listing? --Tryptofish (talk) 21:16, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Born2cycle. On the point of +40 year old understanding of Atheism. Well, I personally think we've used to much emphasis on Smith in the first place. As I can't see many modern atheist authors refer to him today. That aside though. I don't have a problem with using him in a broader explanation of Atheism. But as I started out with a few weeks back. There is a zeitgeist on Atheism. It is a movement on what this term really means. One might affirm that view with the emergence of these "new militant atheists", a complete non sequitur, but still it shows that there is a certain movement here. Towards what you say on spelling. Which you and others have taken up. I'm sorry if my writing is confusing. It isn't intentional. I understand much of what I write have very bad structure and syntax. That might come from the fact that English isn't my native language. But also that I tend to edit my responses quite heavily so that might chop up it's original syntax. Or maybe it's simply that I don't fully lay out the complete argument, but expect a certain level of understanding to the argument. Either way. I can see why my arguments are badly laid out. I'm sorry if it's hard to follow.

@Dannyno, I agree with you on the second part. A more technical term should start the article and be most heavily weighted. On Explicit Atheism and what Smith argues. Yes, I seem to have been a bit incoherent here. As I've used "affirmed position" on Explicit, which Smith doesn't actually say. (The implication of that however is that Smith considers Atheism to be completely negative). But I've stated several times that Atheism and Theism holds the entire spectrum according to Smith. That would mean he considers Theism to have the positive claim. Which I've argued several times. But I can see how that was very hard to follow. Now, I've focused on him because he is the one which is most heavily sourced as Atheism being a rejection in this article. I would contain that he is overly emphasized over other atheist authors. I hope that highlight my position on Smith and why I've focused on him. If it is really that many sources from Atheist authors who supports Smith here, post the sources. I've asked for this this may times. But have never been supplied. From what I've read there isn't really any other sources for supporting him here. It's only by misapplying a theist understanding on Atheism towards the Atheistic understanding of Atheism (which Smith argues), that one find support for him. Which is as you pointed out, WP:OR.

@Tryptofish, I don't know if it's either of those two. As personally I'm trying to get Atheism into one clear define term first and then try to expand on that term. But the sources are conflicting so I don't know if we're able to reach a consensus on that. So for me it's a question if those three understandings are actually correct. Not that those three should be displayed in a particular order. -- Muthsera (talk) 04:09, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There hasn't been discussion on this in a week, yet the previous consensus as of the 12th seemed to be a change to the current lead without using the 'rejection' def as broadest. While I haven't spoken up until now, I have been following along, and I find this consensus to be entirely acceptable. So, what is the current roadblock? Is it coming up with a lead derivative of the above proposal which doesn't begin with rejection? Did interest just fizzle out after weeks of discussion? How can we get this moving to an agreeable change? Jess ^talk _cs 01:59, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. As strong atheism, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, it is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist."

To reject beliefs one must first have beliefs. I am an atheist and I have not rejected any belief in any gods, as I never had any belief in any gods. The fairytales were never convincing, the psychological needs for religion were obvious before I knew what psychological meant. Thought made religions ridiculous. Also atheism is not the position that there are no deities. There simply are no deities, and religion is the position that deities exist despite having no evidence or reason for this belief. Atheism is the label believers apply to all those who don't believe, but this does not alter reality and the fact no gods have ever existed outside of a human (or protohumans) mind. Believer use all kinds of wordgames to try and reverse this reality, but that is merely defending the faith and should not be giving undue value in rational discussions and inquery. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scifilosophy (talk • contribs) 22:04, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you haven't already, I'd suggest reading through the (rather lengthy) discussion of this above. Unfortunately, your argument here is entirely POV, and can't be considered with respect to changes in the article. Also, please sign your comments with four tildes so we know who we're talking to. Welcome to WP! Jess ^talk _cs 01:07, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of personal preference or point-of-view, POV, for a specific definition [as Jess has pointed out that these POVs are not germane here], both the current lead and the suggested revision are written so as to be in accordance with wp:NPOV policy, by giving each significant definition its due weight as reflected by the various wp:reliable sources and with the appropriate citations that are required. Furthermore, for someone to disbelieve by rejecting some belief (a belief held by others) does not mean that person had to have once held that belief. This should be pretty obvious. For instance, anyone can reject beliefs besides theistic ones, such as rejecting belief in alien abductions or a flat earth, and thus disbelieve in these too. There are many atheists that have always disbelieved and thus never ever believed. More importantly, the reliable sources often insist that atheism is a position that, at a minimum, requires disbelieving(ie rejecting belief), so as to exclude wavering agnostics and every infant as atheists. Infants, of course, having no position, do not disbelieve, but are included in the most inclusive definition of atheism, which is in the lead, as it is, with the consensus of the many editors that have visited this article. --Modocc (talk) 03:15, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Modocc I have to admit that I'm a little confused. Was your post directed at me? If so, perhaps I didn't make my position totally clear. I agree with the proposed addition, but since it hasn't been added (despite apparent consensus), I'm wondering what work is left to be done. The only problem I have with the 'rejection' position is that it doesn't take into account atheists as the default, and hence is not the broadest sense. i.e. children don't reject theism, they simply disbelieve it due to lack of exposure or understanding. I believe this is the issue previously discussed regarding the first sentence, and I have a suspicion this is the current roadblock preventing us from adopting the proposal as lead. Feel free to chime in if I'm off-base. Jess ^talk _cs 05:11, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I was addressing Scifilosophy, and I have inserted now a bracketed comment to help clarify that I was. The lead's citations support making the broadest definition only a secondary sense at best. Proponents of making it a primary sense instead would need reliable sources (preferably the majority of the most accepted sources) to assert that toddlers are atheists and/or define atheism in that context without reservation. There is support for this revision, but with some opposition from those that have advocated for the current lead and I'm not sure how strong that opposition is now though. I'm also not prepared to start a wp:BRD cycle at the moment. --Modocc (talk) 12:33, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the confusion there. I was having a hard time figuring out to which of us you were referring, but rereading your response it does seem a bit clearer now. Regarding the lead, I haven't seen any opposition to the current proposal for some time. The primary objections seem to be what form the proposal will take, rather than opposition to it altogether. Therefore, this is what I would suggest: The current revision appears to be...

Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. As strong atheism, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, it is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is distinguished from theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.

While this does begin with rejection, I believe it is still a strong improvement over the current lead, which begins with position. Based on the previous discussion, it seems most others would agree that it is at least an improvement. Therefore, I suggest this be added to the article in its current form, and if necessary improved later. Since this discussion hasn't seen any movement for over a week, I'll make the change in hopes of either improving the article, or attracting attention back to the proposal. If there is strong objection which addresses the issues discussed above, please revert my change and voice it here. Jess ^talk _cs 15:35, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The change is fine with me. (Next time, please don't mark it as a minor edit, though.) Sorry I didn't comment earlier, but I guess some of us were just commented-out with this endless talk page; it wasn't a rejection of the proposed change. Anyway, what we had before was fine with me, the change is fine with me, and I don't have a strong opinion about which is better. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:45, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I see the new version as a bit of an improvement, but I have reservations about leading the 2nd sentence with the jargony phrase strong atheism, which contrasts with the suggestively derogatory term weak atheism. I think we could address this with something like:

The more specific position that there are no deities[2] is sometimes named strong atheism or positive atheism.

For continuity then, the 3rd sentence would probably need to have it changed to atheism--JimWae (talk) 19:06, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Tryptofish Sorry for marking the change as minor. I have it set to default, and occasionally (ugh... almost always) forget to uncheck it. I'll try getting in the habit. Thanks for coming back to the discussion.

@Jimwae I agree with your reservations, but disagree with your proposal. The resulting lead (IMO) doesn't flow very well, and regardless of the position of the label, still contrasts other positions as weak and negative:

Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. The more specific position that there are no deities is sometimes named strong atheism or positive atheism. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is distinguished from theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure I have a really good proposal of my own. Is there a way we could contrast 'Most inclusively' with 'Most exclusively' instead? Alternatively, we could use an separate label, such as: "..in the existence of deities. Gnostic Atheism is the more specific position..." I'm not a huge fan of any of those ideas myself, but perhaps someone else can turn them into something good. Jess ^talk _cs 21:35, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think that would make it worse. It's fine as it is, in my opinion. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:19, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hrmm... yea... I actually agree. I was trying to be constructive, rather than outright critical, and put an idea forward, even though I don't have a solid one. I'm actually ok with the current lead. TBH, my biggest issue is still rejection, but I don't have any great proposals there either. I guess I'll retire unless anyone else has something good to put forward. Thanks guys. Jess ^talk _cs 23:04, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Re:

Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] Strong atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[2] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[3]

I repeat my reservation, now even more strongly with strong atheism now clearly the subject of the sentence (rather than atheism). This makes the sentence even more about the jargony phrase rather than about the position.

Re:

The more specific position that there are no deities is sometimes named positive atheism.

... yes, still contains jargon - but at least the sentence is not primarily ABOUT the jargon. Btw, I cannot find "strong atheism" anywhere but in blogs, newsgroups, and mirrors of wikipedia. I have searched repeatedly & have yet to find it in any even semi-scholarly writings. Hence I have started a discussion about renaming the Strong and weak atheism article --JimWae (talk) 08:14, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree it's a bit problematic to introduce "strong atheism" in the lead - it confuses the definition (we should be defining atheism), it's unbalanced (as we don't define weak atheism - indeed, the current wording could imply that atheism is only defined in the broad sense, with the narrow sense always being "strong atheism"). There's also a possible issue with references (how notable and well referenced is the definition "strong atheism"?) The current lead however is much better now that we've got rid of the dubious "commonly described".

I still think we have the problem that we end up going round and round in circles - and we only ever try to make small changes to whatever the current version of the lead is, even when it's not clear that this version of the lead is preferred over many of the good versions we've had previously. By not referring back to previous versions, to consider whether each new version is an improvement or not, I fear we just end up repeating the same discussions over and over.

For reference, the Featured Article version was [1], which leads with "As a philosophical view, atheism is the belief in the nonexistence of gods,[1] or the rejection of theism.[2] In the broadest sense, it is the absence of belief in the existence of gods." There's various differences such as "belief in the nonexistence of gods" versus "position that there are no deities" (and indeed, "gods" versus "dieties"), "rejection of theism" versus "rejection of belief in the existence of deities". But it seems to flow much better - following the form: "atheism is the [strong definition] or the [rejection definition]. In the broadest sense, it is the absence of belief in the existence of gods." Mdwh (talk) 01:01, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"However, religious and spiritual belief systems such as forms of Buddhism that do not advocate belief in gods, have also been described as atheistic.[14]"

I'm not sure how a religion based on the belief in reincarnation could be considered atheistic? From an atheist perspective this belief is no different to christians heaven, and removing gods but keeping beliefs formed from ignorance and fear does not make a religious group atheistic. I think the confusion surrounding Buddism comes from modern buddists who try to claim buddism is a philosophy and not a religion, simply because there is no god. But reincarnation is the buddists god/heaven, it is most definitely a religion, and at the opposite end of the scale to atheism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scifilosophy (talk • contribs) 21:37, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You are confusing atheism with naturalism. The two are very different. (A)theism only concerns the belief in a deity. A religion without a God is therefore atheistic, regardless of its supernatural claims. Also, please try to keep the discussion NPOV, as this is the only type of comment which can be considered. Thanks for your contribution! :) Jess ^talk _cs 01:02, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Jess. In the purest sense atheism simply means to not believe in a diety. Hence, allot of what many consider religons could in fact be called "atheistic". The problem with saying "atheism is a rejection of religon" is that one has to go on to define religon. To give a sense of why this is difficult, suppose I believe in just reincarnation but no deties or supernatural mumbo jumbo, am I an atheist? What if I just believe in Karma... am I an athiest? What if am just v. superstitious... am I an atheist? NickCT (talk) 15:45, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I apparently agree with the above. The article claims that atheists tend to lean towards skepticism regarding supernatural claims and I'm certain that's true for some atheists, but I don't think one can honestly say that's true of atheists, generally, so I added {{Fact}} because that statement needs to be sourced.mcornelius (talk) 05:20, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This depends on your definition of atheism, I think. If you include all non-theists, then the statement is surely not true. However, including only professing atheists, I definitely think there is an obvious trend which could be sourced. I don't have time to look for a ref at the moment, but I could go either way on citing or removing that sentence. Jess ^talk _cs 07:37, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Technically atheism falls within the parameters for a religion or belief system, since it has been stated that a true atheist would not bother to deny (i.e. Apatheism) and that in order to deny something it has to exist. You couldn't base a belief system around something that no one else believed in. Saying "I Deny God" is one of the hallmarks of atheism, whereas "I Deny Snorbgooble" is nonsense.--Auric (talk) 17:59, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Auric You're incorrect. I would suggest reading both the article and my reply to you in the section below. You are employing the No True Scotsman Fallacy in your characterization of true atheists, and strawmanning by attributing denial of god to a hallmark of atheism. Furthermore, your conclusion doesn't follow from your premise; Does "I deny the lochness monster" make sense? Sure it does. Denying snorbgooble is only nonsense because you made up a nonsense word to deny. If you'd like to contribute, please try to read through the rather exhaustive list of material in the article, and then suggest specific changes to what has been presented. Jess ^talk _cs 19:49, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for clearing that up.--Auric (talk) 15:22, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Jess, What would that entail? Isn't this the argument we've had for a few weeks now weather or not to consider denial a hallmark of atheism? Because that have implication on how we structure the starting sentence. Are we to include a theist understanding of Atheism or not. Because we do find that understanding in the literacy, especially pre 1950. So we can argue until we're blue in the face weather or not that is correct. But if we're supposed to NPOV, then I think we're in a fix. Because I personally believe a denial of theism is a wrong position for Atheism. Or rather that it's fully incorrect. -- 83.108.143.158 (talk) 18:18, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@83.108.143.158 I'm sorry, I'm having difficulty understanding you. What would what entail? If you're proposing changes to the lead, I might suggest making those changes in the appropriate section (above), and trying to be specific about the wording you'd like to include. That discussion has been going on for a very long time, so getting some background on the points which have been considered would also be helpful, if you haven't yet read through the archives. Thanks Jess ^talk _cs 06:13, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry Jess, that was me. Didn't notice I wasn't logged in. Should do so automatic, but I guess the timer went out. To clarify. You said: "and strawmanning by attributing denial of god to a hallmark of atheism." Some sources do indeed claim that denial of theism is also atheism. This is why some have wanted to include "rejection" as the premier definition of Atheism. Scroll up to see the entire discussion. This do indeed seem to be the basic understanding for Encyclopedia Britannica's usage of Atheism. Which is a source we have used. I tried to show that many atheist authors do not agree with that understanding and we should base it instead on a default position. In other words. That Atheism is the mere absence of a theist belief. And that the affirmed positive position is defined as something else. I proposed that could be "Anti Theism". But there seem to be a large objection to that. As we have sources which disagrees with that understanding. -- Muthsera (talk) 23:52, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Muthsera. I said claiming denial of god is a hallmark of atheism is strawmanning because, in the sense Auric used the phrase, he was conflating the denial def to all atheists (many of whom would not be thus described). Denial of god is indeed atheism, but that doesn't mean all atheists deny god. I believe I understand your position, but your proposal is still unclear. You are suggesting a change to the lead, correct? If so, the above section would be a better place for this discussion. Can you rephrase the lead in a way which demonstrates your proposal? That might make things easier. Jess ^talk _cs 00:23, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The way it stands now. "Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities." No it's not. Only some people consider this to be the understanding of Atheism. I certainly don't agree with it. As we strive to be NPOV, this lead is horrible.

Look at the words Smith use: “Theism” is defined as the “belief in a god or gods.” The term “theism” is sometimes used to designate the belief in a articular kind of god—the personal god of monotheism—but as used throughout this book, “theism” signifies the belief in any god or number of gods. The prefix “a” means “without,” so the term “a-theism” literally means “without theism,” or without belief in a god or gods. Atheism, therefore, is the absence of theistic belief. One who does not believe in the existence of a god or supernatural being is properly designated as an atheist. George Smith, ATHEISM: The Case Against God, p 9. Is that consistent with the lead we have now? No, it cannot possibly be. I've tried to explain exactly that problem to this community several times now. And there seem to be an insistence on keeping denial/rejection/opposition to theism as the basic tenant of Atheism. It certainly is not. I keep reverting back to this because it's not been taken into account at all with the continued use of rejection as the basic tenant. Thats an endorsement of a theistic understanding of Atheism from Wikipedia. I reject to that strongly. That some authors use this understanding does not make it NPOV.

So I suggest we start it with this:

"Atheism in a broader understanding is the absence of belief in a deity, in deities or the supernatural. A more narrow usage of the term Atheism is as a denial, rejection or opposition to a theistic belief."

If you look at the sources this is actually what all the sources agree on. That some narrowly define it as a rejection, but broadly it's a lack/absence of a belief. The narrow term incorporates Strong Atheism from Martin, Denial from EB and Nagel, and Explicit Atheism from Smith. What they all have in common however is that they see Atheists in one form or another as not having a belief of what ever kind. -- Muthsera (talk) 03:43, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for clarifying. For the record, I share your opposition to rejection being used as the broadest sense, as it clearly (and logically) is not. The current lead was inserted only with the understanding that it was an improvement over its predecessor, which began with position, and I hoped that further discussion could be had to work in a change to the opening. However, to play devil's advocate, I believe the opposition holds that the current sources we're citing to define atheism don't strongly enough maintain absence as a definition, and it would therefore give undue weight to have it listed first of the three defs. It seems to only way to really make progress with this discussion is to either:

1. Provide alternate reliable sources showing strong enough adoption of the absence def to include it before the others
2. Show why WP:Weight doesn't apply. (This is unlikely, and I have to say I agree with the argument, even if I oppose the result)

Therefore, citing only Smith probably won't do us any good. Ultimately, you'd have to track down some other notable sources which agree to make ground. The more the better. Jess ^talk _cs 04:35, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What I mean with my words are that even if you see Atheism as a denial of Theism. One would still not hold a belief in theism. You have an absence of belief in Theism. Thats common for all modern (post 1800's) sources on Atheism. It's only in very old historical context that Atheism is described as someone not believing in the christian god. By starting out with absence of a belief as the broader understanding. We've also managed to be neutral in the question why you have an Atheistic view. We don't take a position WHY one would have an absence of belief. We simply state that an Atheist doesn't have a belief towards said deity. I believe there can be no doubt this is the most broad definition of Atheism. -- Muthsera (talk) 07:15, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Muthsera: No, there are sources that oppose including so-called implicit atheism as atheism at all - hence it is POV to say "atheism... is the absence of belief in a deity", and would be even more POV to begin with that one. This has been addressed multiple times. --JimWae (talk) 04:30, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm trying to tweek the understanding a bit here. I'm instead of looking at implicit (god I hate that term) being the only understanding. I'm looking at what combines all these different understandings of Atheism. In other words, what is the common thread? That is the absence of a belief in a god or the supernatural. Be that from a denial, implicit or strong. The common thread is that you don't have a theistic belief. So that can be considered the most broad definition, so we start with that. We then move on to a more narrow understanding. It incorporates every point of view and leaves the statement as a NPOV. -- Muthsera (talk) 07:15, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Edit- I'm sorry. I didn't fully address your opposition. What Nagel say about Atheism is that it's a denial, it's an affirmed position of rejection. That doesn't mean that Nagel argues that an Atheist do hold a belief in theism. That would be to confuse the two issues and isn't correct. He simply says that you need to hold an affirmed position of rejection to be an Atheist. An Atheist is still without theism. If there are other sources which contradict this view of denial, let me know. Was that to complicated? Maybe I explained myself badly. If so, comment on what doesn't make sense. -- Muthsera (talk) 07:33, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1>You are not making sense again 2>All squares have straight sides, but having straight sides is not sufficient to define a square 3> Nagel says "absence" is not enough to define atheism--JimWae (talk) 07:59, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Muthsera I guess I wasn't clear in my response. I understand what you mean. However, the only way to get anywhere with this discussion is to provide lots more reliable sources of the absence def. In other words... you say that absence of belief is common for all modern sources, and it's only historical contexts which define it otherwise. Prove it. Jess ^talk _cs 13:14, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Jess. What? I though this had to be the basic understanding of Atheism. Because it was so plain, everyone would agree. Am I missing something? I thought I just showed that "without theism" is the most broad term we can find. You cannot ask me to disprove a negative. So let me try to put some of the burden on you as well. Which sources that we have used so far in this article, do NOT agree that Atheism is without theism? That has narrowed it down very clearly and something we can test against. I would claim that Nielsen, Edwards, Rowe and Runes all include this understanding (The sources which have been put the greatest emphasis on here).

@Jim. It's simply using the implication of the sources own claims. Even Rowe, who claims that Atheism is also a belief in disbelief. Entails that Atheism have an absence of a belief in theism. That isn't semantics on my part. It's simply using the implications of their own words. If you have sources that objects to this notion that Atheists are without theism. Please show them. -- Muthsera (talk) 20:08, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To repeat: All squares are quadrilaterals but not all quadrilaterals are squares. All atheists are without belief in any deities, but not everything that is without belief in deities is generally agreed to be an atheist. Atheism entails no belief in deities, but no belief in deities does not entail atheism. Saying a square is a quadrilateral is insufficient for a definition, as is defining atheism as absence of belief in deities.--JimWae (talk) 20:16, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But the definition I posted doesn't say that your completely without a theistic belief. It just claims your without belief towards a deity or deities or the supernatural. Be that towards Thor or the Spaghetti Monster. It doesn't say your without belief in the christian god. Do you understand? Your arguing against something which isn't there. -- Muthsera (talk) 21:29, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Are you referring to: "Atheism in a broader understanding is the absence of belief in a deity, in deities or the supernatural."? Do you really want "Atheism ... is the absence of belief in... the supernatural." to stand as one of the definitions of atheism? Haven't we already been over this 3x times since you arrived? And do you also want absence of belief in the supernatural to be compatible with belief in the existence of deities? Find support for any of this --JimWae (talk) 21:40, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have ALSO been arguing against "Atheism ...is the absence of belief in any deity" - variations of which you have repeatedly proposed to start the article, and have done so again. You have not addressed the points against doing so raised by many here. I am losing patience with this recycling of the same ideas without in any way addressing the problems already raised. Why should I not just ignore you?--JimWae (talk) 21:43, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For my own ineptness, could you redirect me to these arguments? I have great problem finding anything in this 46 page archive. But the definition I posted doesn't say that you are without belief in ANY deity. Although it can be. As it can be without belief in the supernatural. The definition doesn't say your without belief in ALL supernatural phenomenons or deities. But that it can be that to. I think it's a very good definition myself. Your simply objecting to something the definition doesn't claim. -- Muthsera (talk) 22:03, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed Jim's observation about losing patience, and I'm sorry to say (because I know Muthsera means well) that I lost patience a long time ago. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:35, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what more I can do. I've simply pointed out that his objection isn't relevant to the definition. His usage of allegorical argument to show the disconnect in my view is inaccurate and doesn't illustrate any problem. Instead of pointing out how difficult it is to argue against me. Why not address why his allegorical illustration is indeed relevant? I think he simply has misunderstood how absence of a belief in a deity, deities or supernatural is defined here. -- Muthsera (talk) 23:39, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Muthsera You're just repeating yourself, which isn't helping your case at all. WP is run wholly on sources. Please find as many reputable sources backing your argument as you can. Jess ^talk _cs 22:58, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Jess, I've done that several times now. I showed it with Smith, I've showed it with Nagel and I've showed it with Rowe. All proponents of different understanding of Atheism. What your actually asking me to do is to disprove the negative. I cannot possibly find all sources ever made on Atheism to see if they are in disagreement with this understanding. But if some are found. Then it's overturned. I welcome that. The objection so far has been that the definition says that your without any form of theism and supernaturalism. When in fact the definition doesn't say that. But if you must. I can repeat the sources.

1. REDIRECT [[2]]

"As commonly understood, atheism is the position that affirms the nonexistence of God. So an atheist is someone who disbelieves in God, whereas a theist is someone who believes in God. Another meaning of "atheism" is simply nonbelief in the existence of God, rather than positive belief in the nonexistence of God. …an atheist, in the broader sense of the term, is someone who disbelieves in every form of deity, not just the God of traditional Western theology." Rowe, William L, Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, subsection: Atheism

Still in line with the definition I posted. Rowe asserts that it's commonly understood in some form an disbelief in a god. To disbelief in that god you need to be without a faith in that god.

1. REDIRECT [[3]]

"On our definition, an 'atheist' is a person who rejects belief in God, regardless of whether or not his reason for the rejection is the claim that 'God exists' expresses a false proposition." Edwards, Paul. The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, subsection: Atheism

In line with the notion that Atheists reject the belief in god and consequently is without belief in god. That can be understood to be all god. But is inconsequential to the definition. As it only states that it can be against god.

"Atheism, in general, the critique and denial of metaphysical beliefs in God or spiritual beings.... Instead of saying that an atheist is someone who believes that it is false or probably false that there is a God, a more adequate characterization of atheism consists in the more complex claim that to be an atheist is to be someone who rejects belief in God for the following reasons" Nielsen, Kai, Encyclopædia Britannica, subsection: Atheism

In line with the understanding above.

"“Theism” is defined as the “belief in a god or gods.” The term “theism” is sometimes used to designate the belief in a particular kind of god—the personal god of monotheism—but as used throughout this book, “theism” signifies the belief in any god or number of gods. The prefix “a” means “without,” so the term “a-theism” literally means “without theism,” or without belief in a god or gods. Atheism, therefore, is the absence of theistic belief. One who does not believe in the existence of a god or supernatural being is properly designated as an atheist." Smith, George, Atheism: A Case Against god. p 9.

Self evident in line with the definition.

1. REDIRECT [[4]]

"I shall understand by "atheism" a critique and a denial of the major claims of all varieties of theism... atheism is not to be identified with sheer unbelief... Thus, a child who has received no religious instruction and has never heard about God, is not an atheist - for he is not denying any theistic claims. Similarly in the case of an adult who, if he has withdrawn from the faith of his father without reflection or because of frank indifference to any theological issue, is also not an atheist - for such an adult is not challenging theism and not professing any views on the subject" Nagel, Ernest. Basic Beliefs: The Religious Philosophies of Mankind

One cannot by definition have faith or belief in something one denies. The logical assumption of that is that your without belief or faith in said god.

I've showed many sources now for this understanding. You cannot possibly ask me to supply all sources for this. I've tried to get as large a scope as possible on the arguments. And they all align nicely to this definition. It should be more than enough. Especially considering how lacking the rejection definition we have now. -- Muthsera (talk) 23:39, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Neilsen, Edwards, and Nagel would not agree that atheism could be defined as "absence of belief that any deities exist". See my comment on squares & quadrilaterals above. Until you understand why those 2 points are crucial for every proposal you have made, there is no point in discussing this further

I don't see anything on this page indicating how or if atheists spread their beliefs. Presumably there is a kind of structure for atheists, since atheists aren't necessarily anarchists. This needs to be covered.--Auric (talk) 17:48, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Atheism doesn't have an apope or amissionaries. Atheism just contains a lot of people who don't believe in god (or gods; or maybe they outright reject the concept of a god (or gods); cue tedious argument). Some atheists may try to explain to others that there is no god, but since atheists don't have a holy book promising eternal punishment / eternal reward &c there isn't quite such a strong driving force to do so; and there's no central atheist organisation that would encourage outreach.

bobrayner (talk) 18:01, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Auric There seems to be some confusion. Try not thinking of atheism as within the category of religion. Instead, think of it as, say, "people who don't play golf". Non-golfers don't on a whole go around proselytizing for why golf is a bad sport. Some non-golfers may feel that way, but on the whole there is no necessary correlation. There is also no "non golfers guild" or congregation of anti-golfites. There's just a group of people who play the sport, and then there's everybody else. By talking of "atheist's beliefs", you're assuming there is an organized group which shares common interests or goals, when in reality it's a lack of common interests and goals which defines the label. Jess ^talk _cs 18:27, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To unearth an old aphorism, but one I think that well states the point, "saying atheism is a religion is like saying not collecting stamps is a hobby" (another old one: "if atheism is a religion then bald is a hair color").--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 22:01, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for clearing that up.--Auric (talk) 15:19, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I can see atheism contends all Gods must be supernatural and that is it. It seems quite obvious atheism likes to pick on ancient or contemporary primitive people. Atheism never explains the birth of natural laws and why there is a mathematical order to the universe. Or why the universe is here at all. It just is? The idea that there are natural laws that create natural laws is left unexplored. In other words what if God cannot be a an outdated supernatural being but is possibly something the mind of humans can never imagine. Am I coming across? User:kazuba

Please see Wikipedia:NOTFORUM#FORUM. Wikipedia is not a forum, and hence not the place to discuss the merits of any particular view. If you're interested in pursuing those lines of inquiry further, and would like answers to some of your questions about atheism and science, you may wish to check out ironchariots.org and talk origins. Good luck. Jess ^talk _cs 06:12, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To Jess Mann, I KNOW this is not a forum. It was my understanding new additions to atheism can ONLY be added AFTER they go through the discussion page. I think the deities atheism denies MUST be described as ONLY supernatural beings that have been referred to in the history of humanity at present time and the past. The future is still up for grabs. Atheism makes no statements about the future. Atheism is stuck in the present [now 2010] and the past. In other words atheism has definite conceptualized and historical boundaries. And this SHOULD BE NOTED as such in the atheism entry. A present atheist does not have the liberty of changing their mind to suit future evidence.User:kazuba 28 May 2010.

I've read your comment a few times, and I'm having a very difficult time understanding what change you want to make. Is there any way you can make your proposal clearer? You presumably wish to add content. Can you provide:

1. The section in which the content should go
2. The textual addition you wish to make
3. Sources you have for the addition

Thanks Jess ^talk _cs 18:51, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Kazuba: the key thing is to have sources for that. Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:20, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

First, I wanted to say that the new lead (I'm not sure how long it has been in place) is much much better than the previous version - thanks! On to something else though: the first mention of nontheism is in the second paragraph "... while a further 11.9% is described as nontheist." It is not clear at all what this actually means, and the nontheism article wasn't so helpful to me. Can I suggest we extend the last sentence of the first paragraph that contrasts theism and atheism, by also contrasting atheism and nontheism? I'd offer a suggestion on how to actually do this, but it's still not clear to me the relationship atheism and nontheism share. Cheers, Ben (talk) 13:37, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, it certainly is non-clear. I'm OK with linking to the nontheism page when the word first occurs. I think that the contrast with theism is important in a way that any contrast with nontheism is not. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:24, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you agree that it is non-clear, then why are you opposed to clarifying the term via a contrast with atheism? Ben (talk) 06:43, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think the problem is that the distinction is unclear generally. For "non-theist", the OED gives merely: "A person who is not a theist." Which seems to make it essentially synonymous with atheist/ism. --Cybercobra (talk) 07:43, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Great, then can we give this as a synonym in the lead paragraph (with reference to OED)? Cheers, Ben (talk) 07:51, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is not a synonym. An atheist is a nontheist, but not all nontheists are atheists. Nontheism is an umbrella term that covers religions and nonreligious non-theism, including agnostics, buddhism, etc. Its like squares and rectangles, where atheism is a square and nontheism is a rectangle. They are both forms of rectangles, but you cannot say they are synonyms, thats bad logic. --Extrabatteries (talk) 13:32, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ben's question to me is, I admit, a good one. It seems to me that nontheism may, in fact, not really be a notable topic, but rather, a dictionary term that was expanded into a coat rack. There is certainly the word "nontheism", which, as Cybercobra correctly says, just means "not theism", and it appears first on this page in the context of a source that uses the word to characterize poll results. Is there a reliable source that says "the difference between atheism and nontheism is X"? If not, I'm not sure there is much we can do with it here. Atheism and theism are obviously notable concepts, in ways that nontheism may not be. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:42, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Barring a good argument in opposition, I would support merging Nontheism into Atheism and having Nontheism redirect to Atheism. Is that what you're suggesting? --Born2cycle (talk) 03:50, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If we're going by the OED quote above then I think that's probably a good idea. Cheers, Ben (talk) 14:15, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe we should. (?) But I think there's enough material at nontheism that we should not do so without going through the proper tagging and full discussion first. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:30, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, merging only after proper tagging and if consensus through discussion is achieved. --Born2cycle (talk) 23:47, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Most of the nontheism article is about nontheism within religions. Inserting all that in the atheism article would unbalance the article & is probably undue weight. Perhaps what is needed is an article on Nontheistic religion--JimWae (talk) 01:23, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose merge -- Atheism and nontheism are certainly two different topics, articles and categories. Atheism is the positive statement that "there is not" a god. Nontheism is beyond the question of whether or not there is. Some atheists are religious atheists, in that they hold their belief without any logical or rational reason -- i.e. the person who doesn't care how intellectually honest it is to say we can't know the answer one way or the other (nontheism), but rather goes ahead and make the "leap" to the positive statement of atheism. THAT IS NOT TO SAY that all atheists are religious atheists, but some are. The person who hates god because of something that happened to them in their life is also a religious atheist, but is a "bad faith atheist". The distinction is very useful and should be developed into further relief, rather than being merged. To further clarify: America is not a "Christian nation", nor an "Atheist nation" it is properly a "Nontheist nation" and if people understood the proper meaning of this, there would be no offense at that statement from either atheists or theists. Greg Bard 01:44, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Atheism is the positive statement that "there is not" a god" Er, see "weak atheism" in this very article. --Cybercobra (talk) 02:08, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support Merge - I think they should be merged. As far as I can tell, Nontheism just seems to be a fad-ish word adopted by some because the word "atheism" sounds too ... worn out? tired? Everyone is looking for something fresh. A clue is found in the Nontheism article: "While the Oxford English Dictionary (2007) does not define non-theism ... ". That should say something. I've done tons of reading on atheism, and I've never seen the term "nontheism" used (until I stumbled on it here in WP). I dont doubt that there is some good information in the Nontheism article, and I would not suggest deleting any of the sourced content. Perhaps Nontheism could just re-direct to Atheism, and a new, small "Nontheism" section could be added into Atheism article? --Noleander (talk) 19:28, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose merge for now - Nontheism needs to be cleaned up first. There is too much material there for this article to absorb without this article being drowned in info about nontheistic religions. I instead support moving much of the nontheism article to a new article such as Nontheistic religions. --JimWae (talk) 19:35, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I went back and looked again at nontheism in light of what Jim says here, and I think that he has identified the key issue. Most of that page is about "nontheistic religions". Those are absolutely not the same thing as atheism, and in most cases, are not atheism at all. Here, on this page, it is unclear whether the word was used by sources in that sense, or as a vaguer synonym for atheism. It's sort of like the term has been used to refer to nontheistic religion (as in I do not believe in God, but I'm a very spiritual person and I believe in a sort of greater power), as well as to refer to "not theism" (as in, among many other things, secular humanism). It would make sense to merge the "not theism" parts into this page, but to develop the rest into a separate page about something that is clearly not atheism. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:47, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"religious and spiritual belief systems such as forms of Buddhism that do not advocate belief in gods," I'm not able to check the source given for this claim, however it is at the very least arguable; God in Buddhism clearly notes various hindu gods whose existence is admitted in that religion. It only insists none are creators and all are mortal. I'll restrict the claim to reflect this Aryah (talk) 02:22, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there are forms of Buddhism (and of Hinduism) that believe in gods. The sources assert that there are also forms of Buddhism that do not make belief in any deities part of the religion. If a religion maintains there are some mortal non-Creator gods, it would be doubtful it would qualify as atheistic at all. --JimWae (talk) 03:16, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think that you both make valid points, actually. I made a small fix to the wording, making it "some" forms of Buddhism, to try to address these concerns. Was that sufficient? --Tryptofish (talk) 18:33, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What has annoyed me greatly in this article is the overemphasize some sources have on shaping this article. I'm talking about sources that say that Atheism is to be understood as a denial or that Atheism is a belief. Thats a prejudice that is foundation on the understanding that another belief is true and Atheism is in opposition to that or that Atheism is an affirmed position of belief. That is only true from the view of a theistic belief. It is not the case from Atheist sources. Like Harris, Hitchens, Dennett, Russell, Smith and Dawkins. Wikipedia don't allow that for other definition. For someone else to define their position.

1. REDIRECT [[5]] Buddhism isn't defined by Christians as belief that Christ didn't exist.
2. REDIRECT [[6]] Christianity isn't defined by Muslims as the belief that Christ wasn't just a prophet.
3. REDIRECT [[7]] Islam isn't defined by Confucians as disbelief in the teaching of Confucius.

Their all defined on the merits of their own position. That is not the case in this article concerning Atheism. Atheists are not defined by the basis of their own claims. But have to contain themselves to be defined by what someone else believes. That is especially true when it comes to the claim that Atheism is a belief or a denial of another claim. I have no problem with that being a subsection of the article, putting it into a historical context. But I reject to the notion that these sources be taken into account for shaping the definition of Atheism on the basis of an Utopian NPOV. -- Muthsera (talk) 21:21, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]