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Although this matter has been dealt with in the past on the talk page (with no rationale for inclusion), yesterday's Fox News feature by Glenn Beck prominently featured the aforementioned diary remark by Guevara (unfortunately without any surrounding context) and predictably has already led to a new user attempting to insert the statement as being representative of Che's personal views. Thus, -(in the absence of an article FAQ which would normally address this sort of thing)- I figured I would rehash the matter so that potential editors wishing to discuss the remarks could decide on whether they (now) merit inclusion. First to the obvious questions: -(Q1)- Did Che ever write such a statement? -(Q2)- Was Che thus racist against blacks and should that view be presented in his article per Wp:Undue, WP:RS etc? I will address both of them to the best of my ability and encourage others to weigh in as well if they have further insight.

-(Q1)- First, yes a 24 year old Ernesto (he was not yet christened "Che") did write this statement in his own personal diary on July 17, 1952, during his continental trip which would later be entitled and encompassed in his 150 page memoir The Motorcycle Diaries. The full context of this statement is addressed by biographer Jon Lee Anderson on [page 92] of "Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life." According to Anderson, Guevara and his friend Alberto Granado had just arrived in the city of Caracas, Venezuela, which at this time was "swollen with migrants" as a result of the nation’s oil boom. As a result the hillsides were draped with "squalid worker slums" comprised of a mostly Afro-Hispanic (black) population. Anderson goes on to state how Guevara up to that point, except for a few brief instances in his life, had never "been around black people" (which were a rarity in his native Argentina) especially for someone of Che’s economic & social class. On this occasion Guevara after meandering through a local "barrio" (slum) made a written "observation" that Anderson states was "reflective" of the "arrogance and condescension" of a "stereotypical white Argentinean" (especially in 1952). The full diary passage that Anderson includes is as follows:

"The blacks, those magnificent examples of the African race who have conserved their racial purity by a lack of affinity with washing, have seen their patch invaded by a different kind of slave: The Portuguese. These two races now share a common experience, fraught with bickering and squabbling. Discrimination, and poverty unite them in a daily battle for survival but their different attitudes to life separate them completely: the black is indolent and fanciful, he spends his money on frivolity and drink; the European comes from a tradition of working and saving which follows him to this corner of America and drives him to get ahead, even independently, of his own individual aspirations."

A few things of importance in reference to this observational passage. (A) Inclusion of this "observation" could be more applicable to the article The Motorcycle Diaries (if anywhere). (B) Anderson notes two pages later [pg 94] how after visiting the U.S. for a brief time (30 days in Miami), directly after he made this observation, Guevara complained to friends about "white discrimination against blacks" that he had witnessed. Thus it is somewhat unclear how Guevara viewed blacks in relation to equality of treatment, although yes he made a statement that I would personally deem offensive months earlier. (C) At the end of Guevara’s journey 3 months later (after the "indolent" remarks), Guevara then states that he "is not the man he once was" and declares himself a transformed individual. Thus it is not clear if Guevara’s views on blacks were altered in that short amount of time based on his trip or how much longer he continued to hold this "observation" on blacks.

What is known about the later revolutionary Che Guevara, which I believe addresses question -(Q2)- are the following points. In reference to "was Che racist against blacks?" – it would obviously depend on what time in his life you are speaking in reference to. Up until age 24, one might be able to state that indeed he was, although his mainstream biographers do not expressively do so. What we do know about his later life once he became "El Che" 4 years later is the following. (1) Che pushed for racially integrating the schools in Cuba, years before they were racially integrated in the Southern United States. (2) Che's friend and personal bodyguard shown here (who accompanied him at all times after 1959) was Harry "Pombo" Villegas, who was Afro-Cuban (black). Pombo accompanied Che to the Congo and to Bolivia, where he survived and now lives in Cuba. Of note, Pombo speaks glowingly of Guevara to this day shown here. (3) When Che spoke before the U.N. in 1964 (as the article currently notes), he spoke out in favor of black musician Paul Robeson, in support of slain black leader Patrice Lumumba (who he heralded as one of his heroes), against white segregation in the Southern U.S. (which still unfortunately existed), and against the white South African apartheid regime (long before it became the Western 'cause de jour'). (4) Che was also heralded by Malcolm X during this trip to NY and in contact with his associates to whom he sent a letter, and later on behalf of his actions in Africa - praised by Nelson Mandela and the Black Panther's Stokely Carmichael as the article currently mentions. (5) When Guevara ventured to the Congo, he fought with a Cuban force of 100 Afro-Cubans (blacks) shown here including those black Congolese fighters who he fought alongside against a force comprised partly of white South African mercenaries. This resembled the fight in Cuba, where Che's units were also made up of mostly mulattos and blacks. (6) Later Guevara offered assistance to fight alongside the (black) FRELIMO in Mozambique shown here & here, for their independence from the Portuguese.

(7) Lastly, as the article currently notes, in August 1961 (9 years after his "indolent" remark), Guevara attacked the U.S. for "discrimination against blacks, and outrages by the Ku Klux Klan", which matched his declarations in 1964 before the United Nations (12 years after his "indolent" remark), where Guevara denounced the United States policy towards their black population, stating:

"Those who kill their own children and discriminate daily against them because of the color of their skin; those who let the murderers of blacks remain free, protecting them, and furthermore punishing the black population because they demand their legitimate rights as free men — how can those who do this consider themselves guardians of freedom?"

Now despite all of these issues, could Che have still "been racist against blacks or secretly found them indolent?" I guess so, but these actions (as his biographers Anderson, Castaneda and Taibo note) especially in the 1960’s do not resemble a man with racist attitudes towards black people. Most biographers, claim that this unfortunate and offensive early "observation" by Guevara, represented his opinion as a young 24 year old venturing out amongst other races for the first time, and do not represent the man whom the world would later know as Che. Now is it worthy of inclusion in this article? I don’t believe so, although I am open to countering arguments. However, it may be worthy of inclusion in The Motorcycle Diaries article, if presented in the appropriate context. As always, other's views are encouraged and more than welcome with corroborating sources for those views obviously appreciated.    Redthoreau (talk) RT 02:38, January 23, 2010 (UTC)

"Although this matter has been dealt with in the past on the talk page (with no rationale for inclusion)...", Really? How was it "dealt" with? Your statement seems to imply some sort of consensus was reached. Was there a consensus reached? Was there a rationale for exclusion of his clearly racist comments? Hammersbach (talk) 02:04, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hammersbach, I believe that you may be misinterpreting my remark of "dealt with" to imply "resolved" which I agree it was not. The matter was briefly discussed in August 2009 and earlier in October 2008. However, there has never been any Wp:concensus for inclusion (the usual threshold) or exclusion. I am not against including the remarks, although I believe that per Wp:Undue that we would need to devise a way to present them in their proper historical and situational context. For instance, many times this quote is parroted by Che’s ideological detractors to imply a lifelong stance of racism, but as I believe the above information demonstrates (and seconded by all of Che’s mainstream biographers) they were actually the unfortunate private musings of a young man with an interest at the time in anthropology who had encountered blacks in a slum for the first time --- and more importantly nearly every action by Guevara from the following year until his death 14 years later --- was if anything anti-racist or at the very least pro-black (especially considering this was at a time when it was still illegal for whites and blacks in many parts of the American south to share a water fountain). Moreover, per this --> BBC article we have the recent remarks by Che's black Swahili interpreter in the Congo (Dr. Freddy Ilanga) that Guevara "showed the same respect to black people as he did to whites." Now this was obviously in 1965, rather than in 1952 when the "indolent" diary remark was made, but is still relevant when considering whether these remarks are worthy of inclusion (or how to present them). Additionally, we have the issue of whether these remarks belong in this main biographical article, or the sub article on The Motorcycle Diaries from when they were written? I am open to all ideas, what do you (or others) think?   Redthoreau -- (talk) 22:45, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The article is outstanding and exhaustively researched, except for one odd exception: in this text of thousands of words, Guevara's two marriages are barely noted, and his five children are not mentioned at all. One exiled grandson is named. I understand that the life of a great revolutionary must be consumed in deeds that achieve his ideals (just as his name, Ernesto, was consumed by his nom de guerre, Che). Still, there is no question Guevara's family would have had significance for him, and they should be mentioned. I would also like to know if the legend is true, or false, or unverifiable, that Guevara spoke about his children a few hours before his death, with the young soldier who'd been assigned to guard him. Younggoldchip (talk) 16:34, 25 January 2010 (UTC)younggoldchip[reply]

Younggoldchip, I agree with your contention and will attempt to increase the amount of information regarding his immediate family (perhaps a family photo of Che with his children could be included as well?). As for the question of his last statements, I know a few biographies mention such a thing, thus I will see if I can locate them specifically.   Redthoreau -- (talk) 11:59, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

User:Mark K. Jensen made the following addition to the article as a sub-section:

Slavoj Zizek lists six additional "variants of Che Guevara's 'last words'": (1) "Aim well. You are about to kill a man." (2) "I know you've come to kill me. Shoot, you are only going to kill a man." (3) "Know this now, you are killing a man." (4) "I knew you were going to shoot me; I should never have been taken alive." (5) "Tell Fidel that this failure does not mean the end of the revolution, that it will triumph elsewhere. Tell Aleida to forget this, remarry and be happy, and keep the children studying. Ask the soldiers to aim well." (6) "Don't shoot, I am Che Guevara and I am worth more to you alive than dead."< ref >Slavoj Zizek, In Defense of Lost Causes (New York and London: Verso, 2008), pp. 433 & 515n.16.< /ref >

Do editors believe that inclusion of these variations is appropriate? Or perhaps could it simply be mentioned that variations exist and then list a few (or all) in the references and not the article's body? What are other's thoughts? Moreover, variation #6 is never listed as a last statement, but is usually alleged to have been said upon capture (with execution occurring the following day) so if indeed Zizek reports such a thing, I believe credibility and accuracy would be a concern?   Redthoreau -- (talk) 22:52, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK either way, as long as there's a reliable source for them. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 23:07, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the word usage and punctuation in this otherwise stellar article is lame. See comma for further info. --- signed User:86.217.154.43