Talk:AR-15–style rifle: Difference between revisions

Browse history interactively
← Previous editNext edit →

Mudwater (talk | contribs)

5 user groups
68,378 edits
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
→California Compliant Section?: How to be compliant in California.
m →California Compliant Section?: Copy editing my recent post.
Line 137: Line 137:
::How about [https://caligunner.com/california-compliant-featureless-rifle/ this] article on Caligunner.com? There's more out there, but this is one of the better ones, I think. <span style="font-family: cursive;">— [[User:Mudwater|Mudwater]]<small><sup> ([[User talk:Mudwater|Talk]])</sup></small></span> 22:16, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
::How about [https://caligunner.com/california-compliant-featureless-rifle/ this] article on Caligunner.com? There's more out there, but this is one of the better ones, I think. <span style="font-family: cursive;">— [[User:Mudwater|Mudwater]]<small><sup> ([[User talk:Mudwater|Talk]])</sup></small></span> 22:16, 10 December 2022 (UTC)


:::This is a bit complicated, and the laws are continuing to evolve. But it looks like an AR-15 style rifle is legal in California if (1) it has a fixed magazine that holds ten rounds or less, *or* (2) it accepts a detachable magazine but does not have any of the banned features -- pistol grip; thumbhole stock; folding, telescoping, or detachable stock; forward grip; barrel shroud; threaded barrel; grenade launcher; or rocket launcher. Option (2) is referred to as a "featureless rifle". (Related to all this, full-feature AR-15s registered with the state before 2005 are legal to possess. Also, the state passed a law banning the possession of detachable magazines that hold more than ten rounds, though that's under legal challenge.) <span style="font-family: cursive;">— [[User:Mudwater|Mudwater]]<small><sup> ([[User talk:Mudwater|Talk]])</sup></small></span> 16:55, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
:::This is a bit complicated, and the laws are continuing to evolve. But it looks like an AR-15 style rifle is legal in California if (1) it has a fixed magazine that holds ten rounds or fewer, *or* (2) it accepts a detachable magazine but does not have any of the banned features -- pistol grip; thumbhole stock; folding, telescoping, or detachable stock; forward grip; barrel shroud; threaded barrel; grenade launcher; or rocket launcher. Option (2) is referred to as a "featureless rifle". (Related to all this, full-feature AR-15s registered with the state before 2005 are legal to possess. Also, the state passed a law banning the possession of detachable magazines that hold more than ten rounds, though that's under legal challenge.) <span style="font-family: cursive;">— [[User:Mudwater|Mudwater]]<small><sup> ([[User talk:Mudwater|Talk]])</sup></small></span> 17:11, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Revision as of 17:12, 11 December 2022

Template:Vital article

Template:Calm

Template:Annual readership

Is AR an abbreviation or an acronym?

Thread retitled from What does AR stand for?.

The article says that "AR" is an acronym of "ArmaLite rifle". I was under the impression that it was an abbreviation of "ArmaLite". In fact, ArmaLite used this "AR" name for shotguns (AR-17), pistols (AR-24) and accessories. Is it correct to say "ArmaLite rifle" is actually a backronym? Does anyone have more information? Roll 3d6 (talk) 10:21, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What do wp:rs say? Slatersteven (talk) 11:48, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Per sources in ArmaLite AR-15, Armalite rifle. [1][2] Dennis Brown - 2¢ 12:15, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ Myre, Greg (February 28, 2018). "A Brief History Of The AR-15". National Public Radio. Retrieved November 20, 2021. AR" comes from the name of the gun's original manufacturer, ArmaLite, Inc. The letters stand for ArmaLite Rifle — and not for "assault rifle" or "automatic rifle." ... The National Rifle Association estimates there are some eight million AR-15s and its variations in circulation, and says they are so popular that the "AR" should stand for "America's Rifle.
  2. ^ Sobieck, Benjamin (2015). The Writer's Guide to Weapons. Penguin. p. 202. ISBN 978-1599638157.
huh. I always assumed iy meant “assault rifle”. The more you know. Dronebogus (talk) 15:04, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's what some what you to think it means ;) AK-47 stands for Avtomat Kalashnikova 1947 (assault rifle (designed by) Kalashnikova in (19)47. Ammo used to be labeled that way, ie: a 30-06 was a .30 caliber bullet designed in 1906. An "assault rifle" is one that is either fully automatic or can operate with 3 round bursts, something no stock AR-15 can do. btw, the "15" part just means it was the 15th design by ArmaLite. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:12, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've been searching for a while; for every source I find that says it stands for "ArmaLite", I can find ten more that say it stands for "ArmaLite rifle". It's true that almost all "AR" products are rifles, and while it's strange that a handgun was called AR-24, the convention does seem to be that the R stands for "rifle". In conclusion, that "AR" may or may not have stood for just "ArmaLite" at one point is likely not interesting or useful information for this article.
Also, I retitled this topic so that people won't think I was wondering if it stood for "assault rifle", as that seems to be a common misconception (almost all the sources I had found about the prefix were actually addressing this misconception in particular). I want to be clear that I didn't mean to discuss this misconception, or any related conspiracy theories, with this thread. Roll 3d6 (talk) 19:34, 7 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There are also AR-15 pistols, with much shorter barrels, and stocks, that look just like rifles. Looks are deceiving. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:23, 7 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, this is a tough one. NPR is clearly a reliable source, which is the standard, but I suspect that NPR is actually incorrect here as Armalite has produced a number of different weapons, including the aforementioned AR-24 pistol, two shotguns (the AR-9 and AR-17), and an aircraft multibarrel machine gun (AR-13) all under the "AR-" branding. Therefore, simple logic would indicate the 'R' is mostly likely the second letter of Armalite and not 'rifle', assuming it means anything at all. I guess we get to fall back to the "Verifiability, not Truth" standard in that unless we can find a better reliable source, even if NPR is incorrect, they are at least definitively incorrect. 73.254.89.77 (talk) 03:17, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
My suggestion would be to remove the assertion as to what it stands for entirely, and simply state (listing the citations already present) that it does not stand for Assault Rifle since all ArmaLite products including rifles, pistols, and shotguns have an AR-prefix code. — PhilHibbs | talk 21:18, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
How about this?
Current: Although Colt owns the AR-15 trademark, the "AR" in AR-15 stands for "ArmaLite Rifle", not "assault rifle".
Revised: Although Colt owns the AR-15 trademark, the "AR" in AR-15 refers to its original manufacturer, ArmaLite.
This avoids the issue and is consistent with the NPR source (""AR" comes from the name of the gun's original manufacturer, ArmaLite, Inc."). 73.254.89.77 (talk) 15:30, 27 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I support the revision, since we avoid the confusion from differing sources but still get the main point across, i.e. that AR does not mean assault rifle. Sjö (talk) 08:54, 28 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I added a wikilink to "assault rifle" in the current phrasing so people can see what the term means, and I would prefer to retain the mention that it does not refer to assault rifle since this is such a common misconception. Otherwise I agree with this revised phrasing. So something like: Although Colt currently owns the AR-15 trademark, the "AR" in AR-15 refers to its original manufacturer, ArmaLite, and not, as is sometimes thought, "assault rifle". —DIYeditor (talk) 09:01, 28 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If they had named it the " AL-15", we wouldn't have any confusion. Sigh. BilCat (talk) 22:03, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is what brought me to the talk page. Reading through the lede, this read smoothly, Although Colt owns the AR-15 trademark, the "AR" in AR-15 stands for "ArmaLite Rifle", not "assault rifle"; though it probably needs some revision. However, using The "AR" in AR-15 stands for "ArmaLite Rifle", not "assault rifle". to open the section Terminology is both redundant and comes off as a political edit. The refrain that "AR" doesn't stand for "assault riffle" is a political push-back against the AR-15's inclusion in the Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban, despite fitting the political Federal Assault Weapons Ban#Definition of assault weapon|Definition_of_assault_weapon]]. It's a talking point of the National Shooting Sports Foundation firearm trade association, which lobbies against similar assault weapons bans at the federal and state level. [1]
I'd suggest changing the sentence in the lede to Although Colt owns the AR-15 trademark, the "AR" in AR-15 refers to its original manufacturer, ArmaLite. The second reference in Terminology should be removed unless anyone has a primary source from ArmaLite marketing as to the AR backronym. Also, the reference Jeff Zimba (2014). The Evolution of the Black Rifle: 20 Years of Upgrades, Options, and Accessories. Prepper Press. p. 10. ISBN 978-0692317266 just isn't supportive of this talking point [2], remove it. Rfugal (talk) 12:52, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. It sounds like we more or less have consensus. 73.254.89.77 (talk) 16:50, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm still back-and-forth on how and if to include the statement that AR is not an acronym for "assault riffle", but if it is it should be contextualized. Maybe something like,
Infantry rifle designer Eugene Stoner (an ArmaLite designer) gave the riffle the alphanumeric designation "AR-15" in 1957, the trademark which Colt Firearms bought from ArmaLite in 1959. [3] A common conception is that "AR" is an acronym for "assault riffle", perhaps because of the weapon's inclusion in the Federal Assault Weapons Ban in 1994 or because of the original design's intended use to replace the M14 rifle in the Vietnam War. [4] Like the National Shooting Sports Foundation which lobbies in the U.S. against firearm bans similar to the Federal Assault Weapons Ban at the federal and state level [4], this conception is said by some in the Gun rights movement to be a misconception—that "assault riffle" is a misnomer and "AR" simply means ArmaLite riffle. [5]
That would go in the Terminology section and the sentence in the lede would be removed. Re-reading that sentence (in the lede), if you remove the "not assault rifle" phrase it becomes redundant and not necessary. Rfugal (talk) 02:49, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Since the sources contradict each other, I think that we should go with "refers to its original manufacturer, ArmaLite" instead of choosing one or the other. I also think that the misconception is so frequent [6] that it should be mentioned both in the lede and in the terminology section. The lede is supposed to be "a summary of its most important contents" so it is not redundant to mention it twice in the article. Thirdly, the last sentence is problematic as it suggests that it is only part of the gun rights movement that say that AR does not mean "assault rifle". That is not correct, as the Snopes link and refs in assault weapon and assault rifle shows. Sjö (talk) 08:26, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think I have found the authoritative source. Armalite says on their History page (section 1952-1954) "All rifles were designated AR, short for Armalite Rifle." I think that settles it.Sjö (talk) 14:55, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hard to argue with that. Okay, I retract my previous suggestion and recommend adding this source to the line. Didn't expect this is where this would go, but I can't deny that that source is anything but definitive. 73.254.89.77 (talk) 04:00, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Added what I think captures the consensus to the article, including context on the misconception (citing Snopes) and the definitive source on AR acronym. Rfugal (talk) 21:30, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A continuing issue in this and other related articles is the mistaken belief that since "AR" means "ArmaLite", not "assault rifle", that there is therefore no such as an assault rifle. This is in spite of the well-referenced historical fact that the term is legitmate, and preceded the Armalite company by at least 10-15 years. I won't simply add such a statement to the article without a direct source that makes the connection, as doing it without one is synthesis. Yet it is a genuine issue. Has anyone seen a source that does address it? BilCat (talk) 00:02, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Specific wording

Yes, I know, this old chestnut. Rather than just editing the page -> refusing to elaborate -> leaving, I'd rather get some other peoples' thoughts on this.

For context, this is the paragraph I'm referencing:

Most firearm-related homicides in the United States involve handguns.[85][86][87] A 2019 Pew Research study found that 4% of US gun deaths were caused by semi-automatic rifles, a category which includes AR-15 style rifles.[88] According to a 2013 analysis by Mayors Against Illegal Guns, 14 out of 93 mass shootings involved high-capacity magazines or assault weapons.[89] Nevertheless, AR-15 style rifles have played a prominent role in many high-profile mass shootings in the United States[90] and have come to be widely characterized as the weapon of choice for perpetrators of these crimes.[91]

A lot of people seem to get hung up on the wording of the second half of the last sentence, "and have come to be widely characterized as the weapon of choice for perpetrators of these crimes." Though it seems to be correct - certainly throughout our culture the phrase "mass shooting" evokes imagery of a black-clad individual holding an AR-15 style rifle - the argument is that this makes it sound like these guns are responsible for a (much) larger share of homicide and/or mass shooting deaths.

However, simply appending some extra clarification to the end of the sentence seems a little biased, though, maybe not too much: "and have come to be widely characterized as the weapon of choice for perpetrators of these crimes[91], regardless of the actual prevalence."

I'm not entirely sure where to take it from here, hence the discussion, though I also could just be being pedantic.

Zeph.tech (talk) 16:12, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Weasle wording, we say "Most firearm-related homicides in the United States involve handguns" right at the start, we do not need to say the same thing (reworded) again. Slatersteven (talk) 16:19, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I tend to agree, this seems like adding unnecessary words. VQuakr (talk) 16:26, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, weasle wording. Prominent role is decided by what metric? How do we define "high profile", which doesn't always mean "the most articles", etc. It isn't adding information. If anything, it is slightly misleading. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 18:12, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If a shooting is reported on the news here in Europe, you can safely say it is high profile, and it's usually some looney buying a bag of semi-automatic guns and shooting up a school or a market. Hope that helps. BP OMowe (talk) 17:13, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Mention of attack in article of guns used by perpetrator.

I am currently in dispute about this subject at Talk:O.F. Mossberg & Sons expecting your input and opinion. Notbrev (talk) 05:35, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You've already asked the same question at Talk:Christchurch_mosque_shootings#Mention_of_attack_in_article_of_guns_used_by_perpetrator. This led to various replies at Talk:O.F. Mossberg & Sons, where the consensus is that saying "gun x was used in mass shooting y" has various problems such as WP:TOPIC and WP:RGW.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 13:41, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

How the gun works

Thoughts on adding or linking this somewhere on how the gun works ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omv85cLfmxU&feature=share Jackson883941 (talk) 02:29, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

YouTube videos are usually unsuitable as sources or external links; if people want to watch YouTube videos about a given subject, they can visit the site.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 07:51, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect usage of the word Assault Rifle

Apparently AR, which vividly states in the 1st section of the article to stand for ArmaLite and not Assault Rifle.

Yet you incorrectly use it in the Comparison to military versions section?? Gun Nut perk (talk) 04:54, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Better yet, you guys refuse to change it just by removing the word Assault???? Gun Nut perk (talk) 04:58, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The "military assault rifles" referred to are the M16 and M4. It has absolutely nothing to do with "AR". BilCat (talk) 05:05, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Those are parts of the ArmaLite series. Not AR in assault rifles in general.
Having the wordlike Ar = Assault Rifle in a page about the company not the term, is just incorrect usage >:( Gun Nut perk (talk) 05:07, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It does not matter as WP:3RR applies to all Articles even AR-15 style rifle Chip3004 (talk) 05:17, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) I'm not sure if you are confused or not, but the wording is correct as-is... we are clarifying the difference between the AR-15 civilian models, and the M16 assault rifles, do not focus on the term "assault rifle" being used in an article about ArmaLite (style) rifles, and take it completely out of context of the sentence in which it is being used... - Adolphus79 (talk) 05:20, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We're not stating or implying in any way that AR = Assault Rifle. If you take the time to read the sentence, you'll understand that it explains the difference between an AR-15 and an actual assault rifle. –dlthewave ☎ 05:26, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

California Compliant Section?

Any plan to add a section dedicated to the intense "Cali compliant" requirements like the removed folding stock, less than 10 round magazines, the grip being at a 135 degree angle, and countless brutal body mods that are being implemented on the AR series? Gun Nut perk (talk) 20:04, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Suggested sources? Thewellman (talk) 00:33, 10 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
How about this article on Caligunner.com? There's more out there, but this is one of the better ones, I think. — Mudwater (Talk) 22:16, 10 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is a bit complicated, and the laws are continuing to evolve. But it looks like an AR-15 style rifle is legal in California if (1) it has a fixed magazine that holds ten rounds or fewer, *or* (2) it accepts a detachable magazine but does not have any of the banned features -- pistol grip; thumbhole stock; folding, telescoping, or detachable stock; forward grip; barrel shroud; threaded barrel; grenade launcher; or rocket launcher. Option (2) is referred to as a "featureless rifle". (Related to all this, full-feature AR-15s registered with the state before 2005 are legal to possess. Also, the state passed a law banning the possession of detachable magazines that hold more than ten rounds, though that's under legal challenge.) — Mudwater (Talk) 17:11, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
allikas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special%3ADiff%2F1126863174