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The following reference(s) may be useful when improving this article in the future: https://www.dw.com/ru/buk-sbil-mh17-v-sude-pokazali-uliki-protiv-rossii/a-57819879 https://meduza.io/news/2020/11/12/the-insider-proekt-bonanza-media-snimavshiy-filmy-o-neprichastnosti-rossii-k-krusheniyu-boinga-nad-donbassom-kurirovalo-gru https://www.forbes.ru/obshchestvo/379995-strannye-cifry-o-sbitom-boinge-pochemu-almaz-antey-ne-smog-oprovergnut

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That question aside, I think there is only one remaining controversy in this case. Here is it. As we know, the Buk was operated by a professional military team, and according to military/aviation experts (like Mark Solonin - [1]), there is no way they could accidentally confuse a passenger plane with a Ukrainian Su airplane(s) flying on much lower heights - with such advanced equipment! Furthermore, there were numerous passenger planes flying high through exactly same area during same day (and almost same time), most of them are operated by Russian airlines (that was well established by the official investigation). They did not try to hit any of them, obviously because they were easily identifiable as passenger planes. Which brings the question: what a hell they hit this plane? And the only possible explanation seem to be that one originally put forward by Ukarinian SBU [2], i.e. they wanted to hit a Russian passenger plane, which would serve as a casus belli for a much larger invasion to the Ukrainian territory planned at the time. That failed. They hit wrong plane. My very best wishes (talk) 15:27, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In a word, conjecture. Also, if I recall properly, the first words said by the first men at the crash site strongly suggest that they were expecting to find a military plane. Pincrete (talk) 16:04, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, I think we can leave out the conspiracy theories, this is not a wp:forum.Slatersteven (talk) 16:39, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this is not my claim, it was described in RS, and this is hardly a conspiracy theory. It has not been reliably established why exactly they decided to shoot down this plane according to the official investigation [3]. They indicted 4 defendants: the prosecution accuses the defendants Girkin, Dubinskiy, Pulatov and Kharchenko of playing a commanding, organizing and supporting role in deploying the Buk-TELAR that shot down flight MH17. Girkin and Dubinskiy were leaders within the self-proclaimed DPR, an armed group. Pulatov and Kharchenko were their direct subordinates. And sure, these defendants could play exactly this role, they are probably guilty as charged, and they could believe whatever, but they were not the people who actually pulled the trigger, commanded to pull the trigger, and most importantly, did not plan and command the entire operation. According to the conclusion by the investigators, "As the case file shows, there were other people besides the four defendants in this trial who played a role in shooting down flight MH17 – first and foremost the crew of the TELAR, but presumably also individuals within the chain of command in the Russian Federation.". We do not really know what the Russian military commanders from Moscow were trying to accomplish. So whatever RS (such as the article by Andreas Umland linked above) are saying on this subject can be included to the page. My very best wishes (talk) 19:54, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

An enormous percentage of military and police 'cock-ups' - targetting and killing unintended targets - happen because of human error. Not because the human lacks the equipment or knowledge to make a correct assessment, but because in the 'heat of battle', they are so full of adrenalie that they make a wrong judgement - in everyday speech they are 'trigger happy'. Solonin can not possibly know more than that the crew SHOULD NOT have made an elementary error.

The official investigation only raises the issue of 'why this plane' or "why a civilian plane" to make the point that legally the answer is irrelevant :"Thus it is not necessary to provide any evidence that the defendants specifically intended to shoot down a civilian aircraft with their Buk-TELAR. Indeed, as we stated earlier, the case file contains various indications that the defendants did in fact intend to shoot down a military aircraft belonging to the Ukrainian air force. This can be deduced from intercepted conversations involving the defendants that took place after flight MH17 was shot down.

In WP terms, what you are proposing is distinctly FRINGE, and it also appears to be a SYNTH of various sources. Pincrete (talk) 07:25, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, of course I read this text from the conclusion by investigators. They are very careful here saying that the actual motivation for the crime did not really matter that much, as far as the crime was committed, etc. They say it precisely because they do not really know the motivation, beyond "various indications" that ... They also say that the charges can be changed during the trial if new facts (about the Buk team and their military commanders) will be found. As about my suggestion, here is it in general. The shooting down this plane was obviously a crime (hence the international criminal investigation, etc.). Also, according to prosecution, that was not just an accident, but a murder. Which brings the obvious question: what was the motive for the crime? This is far from obvious. This needs to be included somewhere, possibly to a specific subsection, including the opinion by investigators you cited, along with other well sourced views. This is all I was thinking about. And, no, I believe such sourced view [4], [5], [6] is not FRINGE because: (a) it does not contradict any facts we know about this case, including findings by the official investigation, (b) it was officially claimed by Ukrainian government through Valentyn Nalyvaichenko, and (c) it was discussed and considered feasible by experts, such as Andreas Umland , Mark Solonin, and Andrei Piontkovsky. Sure, this suggested motive is not proven, but so are all other possible motives. My very best wishes (talk) 17:45, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. More sources: [7],[8]. The young Bellingcat investigator Aric Toler (2nd ref) criticizes the arguments by Nalivaichenko, but his criticism is very amateurish at best. For example, he does not really address the argument that it was impossible to confuse the passenger and the military Ukrainian planes, especially by the professional military team, the point made by David Satter (1st ref), Piontkovskiy [9] and some others. Instead, Aric Toler misrepresents the argument as a claim that the Buk would be useless against Ukrainian military planes ("While some have argued ...", etc.). No one claimed that. My very best wishes (talk) 02:05, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Other arguments by Aric Toler. Lastly, and perhaps most obviously, we can point to the intercepted private conversations between the Russian and DNR commanders from mid-July 2014, discussing how a Buk was coming to the area to provide protection from constant Ukrainian aerial strikes.. Oh yes, such conversations did took place. That's why people like Girkin (one of the accused) believed that the intended target was a Ukrainian military plane, at least at the time of the event (as noted by investigators). However, that is exactly what DNR commanders like Girkin would be told in the event of the actual false flag operation (once again, we do not know if it was in fact a false flag operation, only that experts discussed such a possibility and that their views can be reliably sourced). My very best wishes (talk) 02:50, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify, I am talking only about this one posting by Aric Toler (which is fine and can/should be cited, but this is more like a personal opinion piece, rather than an official report by Bellingcat). Of course Bellingcat made phenomenal work to establish the actual perpetrators, and the actual chain of the Russian military command used in the operation (as described in this official report by Bellingcat: [10]). Based on that, people who gave an order for the Buk team to shoot were not DNR rebels [11],[12],[13]. My very best wishes (talk) 03:20, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There may be individual elements here that warrant the briefest of mentions, but collectively it amounts to SYNTH advocacy of a FRINGE theory (ie one not given any coverage/much credence by most sources). Most of the sources you give here endorse the notion that targetting the missile on the day and decision to fire was taken by an officer 'on the ground', so human error is more likely than conspiracy. But regardless, this is fringe speculation. Pincrete (talk) 09:02, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, of course that was a human error. All these sources say it was a human error. No one intended to hit the MH17. The only question is why they have made this error, i.e. about the target they intended to hit. My very best wishes (talk) 10:21, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It might be possible to have one line about this.Slatersteven (talk) 09:45, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it could go in the section headed "conspiracy theories" underneath "Russian media coverage"? This is one of the many talking points their Firehose of falsehood has spewed in an effort to throw shade on their culpability.TiddiesTiddiesTiddies (talk) 20:03, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Ahunt: reverted my addition of this category to the article with the edit summary “no reliable source backs this, cases still pending. The article supports the idea that it was an accidental targeting.”

The prosecution in a Netherlands court does assume that this was accidental targeting, but under Dutch law that constitutes the negligent murder of 298 people. The prosecution and court have rejected the alternate theories of the event presented by the defence. The current trial’s purpose is mainly to determine whether the four suspects are guilty of murder by their participation (none of them is suspected of pressing the button, and more trials of other suspects are anticipated).

As to sources, plenty of news sources[14] and books[15] call the act “mass murder”[16][17] and the trial a “mass murder trial.”[18][19]

So the category belongs here as this act is called a “mass murder” in reliable sources, even if it’s legally “unsolved” because no one has yet been brought to justice. —Michael Z. 18:05, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think you might want to check some of those sources you list. They don't all describe it as "mass murder". And unless there is a legal verdict, we tend not to assume guilt for any crime. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:35, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As User:Martinevans123 said, yes that is normally how we proceed, it isn't up to Wikipedia editors to decide the case. - Ahunt (talk) 23:29, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I didn’t say someone is guilty. I didn’t say we assume any guilt. Guilt is not at issue. I said the crime exists. —Michael Z. 00:35, 19 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

All four refer to mass murder.

1. “Piet Ploeg has no expectation the accused will appear even via video link, or that they'll serve time if convicted of mass murder.”
2. “Lawyer Arlette Schijns was speaking at the resumption of the Dutch trial in absentia of three Russians and a Ukrainian charged with offenses including mass murder for their alleged involvement in the downing of MH17.”
3. “The missile launcher that shot down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was actually one of two deadly Buk-TELAR systems smuggled over the border from Russia into eastern Ukraine, prosecutors have revealed during the emotional opening day of a landmark mass murder trial.”
4. “He also asked judges in the mass murder trial of three Russians and a Ukrainian charged for their alleged role in downing Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 to spell out in clear terms in their final verdict — expected next year — about Russia's role in the downing of the plane.”

 —Michael Z. 00:46, 19 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. So there are four there, but you gave six sources above. Could you possibly indicate the source from which each of those four have been taken? Might be clearer for us all. Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:02, 19 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not until; RS make the link. Slatersteven (talk) 10:20, 19 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

News: PACE passes a resolution that MH17 was shot down over Ukraine in 2014 by a Buk missile made available to military units controlled by the Russian Federation, who has been engaged in a widespread and "appalling" campaign of disinformation and obstruction. [20] -- GreenC 16:01, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yesterday I removed the assertion that the airliner was shot down by Russian forces, from the first paragraph of the lead. I found this to be a rather unbalanced statement, especially since this is not repeated anywhere in the article or in the reliable sources, from what I can see. All that seems to be clear is that the weapon was supplied by Russian forces, and that they are being held criminally responsible. Nowhere does it say that the people actually firing the missile were Russian forces, and it would probably be a hard assertion to back up. I don't think it is appropriate to have such a bold and definite statement on a subject which is still somewhat up in the air. At best, I can see it being appropriate to say something like "members of the Russian military have been criminally charged with murder, for their involvement in supplying and readying the weapon used in the downing" or "investigations of the circumstances have indicated that the weapon was supplied by members of the Russian military." I might be wrong about this, but even if I am wrong, such a bold assertion should probably be backed up by credible sources where it is found.

A rather long-winded way of saying that I agree with what user:Pincrete said on August 10, 2021, in his comments on "the lead".

David12345 (talk) 16:02, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think the key thing that readers need to know in the first para is what happened and, as far as we know, who was responsible. How about Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (MH17/MAS17)[a] was a scheduled passenger flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur that was shot down on 17 July 2014 by a Russian missile, while flying over eastern Ukraine.- Ahunt (talk) 17:03, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Probably an improvement, but that completely leaves open who might have fired the missile. I think it's fair to present some speculation or suspicion, so long as it is fairly described as such. David12345 (talk) 17:48, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Well I think that there is no doubt that it was "a Russian missile". The second para in the lede provides expanded detail on who fired it. Feel free to propose alternate wording. - Ahunt (talk) 18:01, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed on that first point, but merely indicating ownership of the weapon does not imply guilt. Here's my try: Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (MH17/MAS17)[a] was a scheduled passenger flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur that was shot down on 17 July 2014 while flying over eastern Ukraine. The plane was shot down with a missile owned and provided by Russia, fired by either Russian-backed seperatists or Russian forces themselves. Just a shot, indicating that there is some ambiguity while clearly showing that it's not ayone's guess. David12345 (talk) 18:26, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Only ambiguity here is whether it was pro Russian separatist forces that fired it or Russian military itself. “Russian forces” covers both. Volunteer Marek 18:09, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It most definitely does not. Russian forces clearly means members of the Russian Armed forces, whereas seperatists are people from outside Russia wishing to part of Russia. I think the distinction is well worth making. David12345 (talk) 18:19, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We do now know who fired it, only that the missile belonged to russia, so maybe that is what we need to say. Slatersteven (talk) 18:47, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm very real-life busy at present, but I agree that neither we nor anyone knows who fired with certainty. A mass of circumstantial and concrete evidence - sufficient to charge a mix of Russians and separatists points to Russian forces working with separatists, but 99% likelihood isn't sufficient for WIKIVOICE - and no investigating board or similar has stated the charge as boldly as the recent addition. Why do we need to be so specific in sentence 1. I agree wholly that Russians and separatists are not the same thing and that we should not predecide the outcome of a possible trial. Pincrete (talk) 20:20, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is doubtful separatist had full Buk crew on standby just for this operation, but if one wants to be pedantic then "Russian forces" could be replaced with "Russian or Russian-backed separatist forces".--Staberinde (talk) 16:38, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The main point is that no enquiry, no court, no authority has said who perpetrated this crime AS FACT. They have outlined a mass of evidence which points to certain people - some of whom have been named as being accused of involvement - even if it isn't possible to know with certainty who was in command, who ordered the firing or who actually fired the missile (which was almost certainly a Russian crew, since this is a hi-tech piece of equipment). Unless we are happy to go beyond what Dutch investigators and Dutch prosecutors have outlined, we cannot say AS FACT in WP:VOICE who carried this out - even though there is really only one group of suspects, that group is as yet untried. Pincrete (talk) 15:52, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So then I think Staberinde's phrasing would work fine. It's certainly more to the point than my suggestion. It seems to reflect the conensus of the replies I've seen, so I'll implement it if no one objects in a while. David12345 (talk) 16:30, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, I think that covers it. - Ahunt (talk) 16:34, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see the need - or advantage of saying 'by' anyone in sentence one - the current version has stood for a good many years. It states the evidence without coming to specific conclusions which inquiries, trials etc have not done so far AFAIK. Pincrete (talk) 19:16, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're talking about the version that existed until a few days ago. This discussion was prompted by me reversing an edit which snuck in "by Russian forces" where it was previously absent. My reversion was reverted, and here we find ourselves. I would be fine with not mentioning it, but clearly some people feel it should be mentioned. If we do mention it, it should be clear but should not suggest that things are known which are not, in fact, known. David12345 (talk) 16:13, 21 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't a question of what "some people feel". I think we ALL feel that there is masses of evidence, down to named individuals or groups as to who did this - it would be astonishing were it anyone other than Russian troops acting in conjunction/support of separatists. But no inquiry, no court, no RS has stated in clear terms who they say did it. They say who they want to interview etc., they outline much of the evidence that exists, all of which points in one fairly specific direction, but it is WP:OR to translate that into stating in WP:VOICE who did it. Judicial sources haven't said that AFAIK. Pincrete (talk) 18:00, 21 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I decided to refrain from editing the article since it's a high interest page but the coordinates are clearly off. The crash site can be seen in numerous map graphics on the Internet as being 1 km southwest of Hrabove. Wikipedia also gives the crash location as Hrabove, but its incorrect coordinates are 10 km away and are closer to different villages (Petropavlivka, Pelahiivka, and Rozsypne).

Incorrect: Coord|48|07|38|N|38|31|35|E (this is what exists on the page right now)
Correct: Coord|48|08|18|N|38|38|20|E

If you go into Googe Earth to the correct coordinates, N48 08' 18" E038 38' 20" and dial back the history to July/August 2014 the you can see the wreckage as plain as day. Does anyone want to make this edit?

-Rolypolyman (talk) 04:01, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The actual perpetrators were not rebels, but Russian Buk team who followed their military chain of command up to Putin. See this official report by Bellingcat: [21]). Based on that, people who gave an order for the Buk team to shoot were not DNR rebels [22],[23]. My very best wishes (talk) 03:06, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think anyone has ever thought that anyone other than a Russian crew actually 'pressed the button'. That Russian crew was acting in support of rebels and ultimately part of a Russian military abd political chain of command who authorised the passage of the vehicle into Ukraine. But how does that impact on our text? Pincrete (talk) 05:39, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I largely restored the long-term para 2 so as to not muddle the DSB and JIT findings with those of the recent trial. This preserves a 'historical progression'. I think that if we want to 'beef up' the 'Russia did it' element, we should do it other than by muddling the progression of inquiries/trials, perhaps in para 1 and/or later in the para covering the recent trial. Pincrete (talk) 06:27, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

OK. Looking at the current version of the lead, I have no objections. It is just that the most common narrative in media was "it was shot down by DNR rebels", while this is a factually incorrect statement. The Buk team was a professional military team acting on the orders of their commanders from Russian Army (and possibly FSB), not DNR rebels. My very best wishes (talk) 17:03, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]