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Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Syrian civil war Israel in the infobox (DRN) Kurds in the infobox North Korea in the infobox China in the infobox

This page has archives. Topics inactive for 30 days are automatically archived 2 or more at a time by Lowercase sigmabot III if there are more than 4.

Much like the so-called "Yemeni Civil War (2014–present)" and the "2011 Libyan Civil War", the war in Syria can be said to be nothing short of the clearest textbook case of an Hybrid War. With fulls cale Russian troop deployment, billions of dollars of US aid to "rebel" groups, thousands of NATO airstrikes, Israeli strikes on Irani-aligned local targets, and a complete Turkish invasion of considerable amounts of land, all of which are mentioned in the article as of now, can there be a more clear example ever? Several sources mention the war as a given of hybrid warfare. The mentions include published academic and official government documents. See https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/1068694.pdf, https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330425587_Superpower_Hybrid_Warfare_in_Syria for the US marine corps, https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/25765949.2019.1605570?journalCode=rmei20 in Chinese geopolitical research, and https://www.asisonline.org/security-management-magazine/articles/2019/11/-russias-geopolitical-campaign-hybrid-warfare-in-the-gray-zone/, https://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/hybrid-war-old-concept-new-techniques and https://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/counter-hybrid-warfare-winning-gray-zone for other sources. The name of the page should be moved to better reflect the nature of the conflict. --181.26.24.244 (talk) 22:57, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The conflict is very much referred as the Syrian civil war by every source, and every other thing you named are simply events part of the conflict. Just like how the 1982 Lebanon War is part of the Lebanese Civil War (since they're interconnected), events such as the turkish offensive into north syria are part of the syrian civil war. Moving the name based on one’s idea is simply WP:OR Ridax2020 (talk) 18:35, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The whole article needs a rewrite, it for example lists allied forces as bellingerents. And it's locked so that nobody can actually do anything to deal with its problems.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.78.207.102 (talk) 07:02, 15 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose that just as consensus can change, so can allies change. Feel free to use {{Edit semi-protected}} here to suggest specific edits. – wbm1058 (talk) 01:13, 18 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, needs to be re-written. Starting with the title that reads "CIVIL" war. When foreign forces unlawfully invade and annihilate your country, it is not a civil war. It is a hostile and aggressive attack we call today terror. Calling it a "civil" war is a misleading political statement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.70.29.185 (talk) 09:22, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's quite common for foreign forces to intervene in a civil war. That doesn't (necessarily) change the internal aspect of the war. — kwami (talk) 08:19, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I understand and support the need for stability at Wikipedia. No intrinsic problem here. Yet the current name of this high-visibility article does hurt Wikipedia. The name implies that there were many civil wars in Syria and our article is not about the Syrian Civil War but about civil war in general in Syria. The article, however, is about a specific civil war, the Syrian Civil War. Getting such a basic convention wrong hurts our reputation among the information platforms. I would like to share my argument in a FUTURE discussion and do not need agrees and disagrees with it now. I'm sure others will make excellent points as well. My CURRENT PROPOSAL is 100% procedural.

Please put support below if you believe that, for any reason, the Wikipedia community should immediately hold a consensual Requested Move discussion for this article. Put oppose if you oppose. This is a PROCEDURAL discussion. It's absolutely fine to support a discussion if you oppose a move and vice versa. Please focus any arguments on holding a discussion, NOT on the correct name. With sufficient support, the next discussion would be on everyone's name preferences. gidonb (talk) 13:46, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support as I want this discussion opened. AvalonXD (talk) 18:13, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per above. Charles Essie (talk) 18:28, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per above. Shrek 5 the divorce (talk) 21:23, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per previous discussions. "Syrian Civil War" is not a proper name. Beshogur (talk) 21:32, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Beshogur. We're not discussing a name right now, just if we should hold a discussion right after about the article's name. Can you confirm (or change) your preference in light of this question? gidonb (talk) 00:32, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Gidonb: I didn't understand the purpose of the discussion at all, can you elaborate more what we are going to discuss? Seems like a waste of time. Beshogur (talk) 11:40, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Beshogur, there is a large group of people here who want to have the opportunity to discuss the name. It is currently blocked by governance (i.e. not policy) considerations. Are you supportive of holding a new discussion to reach a wider consensus? gidonb (talk)

• Support per above. It's incredible that it's come to this. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 23:34, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. It's still not a proper name. 217.32.179.153 (talk) 23:36, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi 217.32.179.153. We're not discussing a name right now, just if we should hold a discussion right after about the article's name. Can you confirm (or change) your preference in light of this question? gidonb (talk) 00:32, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's absurd that a procedural discussion should require the consent of those who oppose a move. Of course they'll refuse to go along with that, especially in light of the fact that the previous move discussions were procedurally closed over formalities rather than consensus. There is no Wikipedia policy to prevent a new discussion, even if those who support the current title will fiercely resist it. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 03:01, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There was clear consensus, and nothing has changed in regards to the media's usage, so no new discussion is needed. Most reliable sources recognize that it isn't a proper name. 217.32.179.153 (talk) 13:31, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mikrobølgeovn, for the most part, I agree but there will be those who will wish you "a day in court" even while disagreeing with you. Never discount the ability of Wikipedians to come up with (even more) original reasoning! It will not be everyone. This anon is not able to make a procedural claim without tying it to a position on content matter, but did get a procedural claim organized. gidonb (talk) 14:43, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing has changed in the past 11 months. It didn't become a proper name in that time, so a new discussion is not warranted. 217.32.179.153 (talk) 18:25, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I rest my case. gidonb (talk) 03:17, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This case was already settled three years before that. Syrian Civil War was the consensus until someone brought it again and closed the discussion because a the technicality. This is a reasonable request. Charles Essie (talk) 17:09, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please WITHOUT possible outcomes for now! Charles Essie, your argument in favor of a discussion is that the naming question was settled long ago and was overturned by an incidental forum? 217.32.179.153, your argument against another discussion is that the naming question has just been settled and should be left alone for now? Please confirm! gidonb (talk) 17:42, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. If usage had remotely changed in the past 11 months, a new discussion would be warranted. But it hasn't. So. 217.32.179.153 (talk) 23:30, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose that's part of my argument. Charles Essie (talk) 22:56, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I originally had in mind a much bigger name discussion that could settle this and any future discussions of this nature for other articles. Charles Essie (talk) 23:35, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. Quoting from recent discussion on the name of the First Nagorno-Karabakh War: "[A]re we really going to revisit and fastidiously investigate each and every one of: First Sudanese Civil War, Second Sudanese Civil War, First Congo War, Second Congo War, and various others, and arguably even the uppercase Somali Civil War and Lebanese Civil War and Sri Lankan Civil War (and Algerian, and Angolan, and Burundian, and Guatemalan, and ...) vs. the apparently solitary case of lowercase Syrian civil war. That way lies madness. An encyclopedia needs titles for its entries, and coins titles if necessary. Titles of wars normally use capital-W War by the usual conventions of the English language, so the lowercase "w" frankly looks a bit silly in that context. Why on Earth should we be so terrified that someone might take a conventionally-capitalized title for a proper noun, to such an extent that we would defy normal English title conventions and spend endless time debating such issues." Sladnick (talk) 20:57, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Sladnick. This discussion, however, is about holding a new discussion, which is currently not possible without it getting shut down. Do you support allowing a new discussion? If so, what are the procedural reasons for this support? gidonb (talk) 05:51, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The last discussion reached a conclusion incompatible with the basic conventions of the English language. Some extraorindary debate would have been necessary to take such a step, but this was not done, only a limited discussion. Sladnick (talk) 09:52, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Support Never understood why this article is titled “civil war” in lower caps, while other articles have civil war capitalized. Ridax2020 (talk) 18:38, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Ridax2020. This discussion, however, is about holding a new discussion, which is currently not possible without it getting shut down. Do you support allowing a new discussion? If so, what are the procedural reasons for this support? gidonb (talk) 05:51, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support I was just wondering this. Unless there are other Syrian civil wars that this civil war could be confused with, it doesn't make sense not to capitalize. Royal Autumn Crest (talk) 00:13, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Royal Autumn Crest. This discussion, however, is about holding a new discussion, which is currently not possible without it getting shut down. Do you support allowing a new discussion? If so, what are the procedural reasons for this support? gidonb (talk) 05:51, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I support allowing a new discussion and I think the procedural reason has been mentioned above repeatedly and that is standardization. It doesn't make sense for civil war to not be capitalized in the title here and civil war to be capitalized in comparable civil wars. Royal Autumn Crest (talk) 14:47, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per above. The Verified Cactus 100% 18:49, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment gidonb What is going on with this? In just 8 days it will be a year since the last move, which occurred after a rushed discussion — only six people supported a move at the time! This was far too few to invent a whole new standard for naming wars, which is what that discussion effectively did even though it falsely claimed to be implementing an established norm. Sladnick (talk) 11:53, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sladnick, this is a request to hold a new community discussion, which is currently blocked. Any admin can close this as successful. I'm not an admin. gidonb (talk) 14:09, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

gidonb How long does that ban on new discussion last? What do they need to see here to allow it? I asked you because you seemed to be trying to guide this discussion. Sladnick (talk) 21:51, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I guide the discussion only when people talk about the correct name. This discussion is about the right to have a new RM. I cannot speak for admins. We will wait patiently until a lot of people ask for a new RM and hopefully such a request will be respected. gidonb (talk) 23:33, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of people have asked for a new RM. It is time to scrap a made-up rule, have a new discussion (this time an uninterrupted one), achieve an actual consensus and - hopefully - end the silliness and restore basic conventions of the English language. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 05:52, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. The last discussion was closed far too quickly, and the continued debates on the talk page showcase that issues remain unadressed. Applodion (talk) 11:22, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Support The entire push to make the Syrian Civil War into Syrian civil war was farcical. If there were a plethora of Syrian civil wars, then perhaps decapitalization would make sense, but there's only been one large civil war. Honestly, should we demote other wars: Russian civil war, American civil war, Spanish civil war, etc? Absurdity. We need another move discussion. 2601:85:C102:1220:2883:171C:E459:1206 (talk) 03:24, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Is there going to be a move discussion or is it going to stall forever? The uncapitalized title appears very silly, and this warrants a discussion.2601:85:C102:1220:2001:5231:1A85:9198 (talk) 20:00, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's a good question. I'd start it myself but I want assurances that we have consensus for a new discussion before I do so. I don't want it to be immediately shut down. Charles Essie (talk) 01:51, 9 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Israel has admitted to funding 12 rebel groups and has continued to attack Syria Farbne (talk) 19:27, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source?--Garmin21 (talk) 17:05, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Israel should have been added to the map a long time ago. It occupies part of Syria and has been involved in the war including support of al Qaida groups and bombings.

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/report-israel-treating-al-qaida-fighters-wounded-in-syria-civil-war-393862

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-chief-acknowledges-long-claimed-weapons-supply-to-syrian-rebels/

https://www.timesofisrael.com/report-israel-armed-rebels-in-south-syria-for-years-in-effort-to-block-iran/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/13/deadliest-israeli-air-strikes-on-syria-in-years-kill-57-say-observers

--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:52, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to add Israel then you would have to add Turkey, Iran, and Iraq on to the map because they have had a much more prominent role in the civil war then Israel.--Garmin21 (talk) 04:05, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Turkey is already in the map showing that it is occupying part of Syria. Same with US. Neither Iran or Iraq are occupying parts of Syria. Israel is. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:15, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So you'd want to make it like LiveUAmap with Israel in blue showing to Golan or something like that.--Garmin21 (talk) 16:28, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly, that's how it should be.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:29, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to add the Golan go head.--Garmin21 (talk) 18:41, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Israel's control over the Golan Heights is irrelevant to what is going on in Syria today. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 19:02, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sources disagree: [1][2][3][4][5][6][7]. All of these events are directly related to the Syrian war and the Israeli occupation of the Golan Heights. Wikipedia must follow the reliable sources. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:05, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Israel most certainly belongs in the infobox as supporting the rebels, but it shouldn't be on the map. Israel armed southern rebels and Islamists, but they never took over physical land during the war. 2601:85:C102:1220:A054:120E:7921:9C4E (talk) 23:31, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Syrian government never took over the physical land of Suwayda or the coastal line during the war. Yet the map shows these areas controlled by the Syrian government Same thing should apply to the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:05, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Supreme Deliciousnes: Are you saying that Syria's coastline is not controlled by the Syrian government? If so, then by whom? Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 02:20, 6 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

They are, but they didn't take control of it during the war.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:30, 9 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The info on territorial changes in the Infobox is pushing a year old. We need an update with more recent info on who controls what.--RM (Be my friend) 19:26, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you many Turkish posts around Idlib have been evacuated, Tafas and Muzayib now belong to local rebel insurgents, and ISIS has expanded across the syrian desert.--Garmin21 (talk) 17:05, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

the Anadolu Agency reported that Egypt sent troops to help Assad^[1] but, the SOHR say that they didn't so, who is right.^[2]--Garmin21 (talk) 17:05, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Anadolu Agency generally isn't a reliable source when it comes to this. SOHR takes precedence in this case, and mention of Egypt should be removed. 2601:85:C102:1220:2001:5231:1A85:9198 (talk) 22:31, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ok I'll remove it.--Garmin21 (talk) 03:54, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

SOHR is more reliable than the Anadolu Agency. Wowzers122 (talk) 22:53, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Egypt still hasn't been removed. I can't remove it because I am an IP. 2601:85:C102:1220:F8C8:7972:A182:48A0 (talk) 21:30, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]