Talk:Soviet–Afghan War

Pakistan as belligerent

Both the infobox and body of this article include plenty of sourced mentions of Pakistani units that engaged the Soviet and DRA forces during the war, with significant casualties to show for it, suggesting that Pakistan's involvement went beyond simply supplying arms and a base of operations to the mujahideen (important because "Supported by:" is deprecated). However, Pakistan is confusingly not included as a belligerent alongside them despite this. I don't see why Pakistan should not be listed as a belligerent, since the sourcing more than supports it. 2600:1700:3D58:900:64A5:6A77:15A6:E76E (talk) 03:09, 13 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

A bit late maybe but I agree with this Grechkovsky (talk) 16:34, 18 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The Second Battle of Zhawar (better described in Afghan Commando Forces) is probably the best example of Pakistani involvement in the Soviet-Afghan War beyond funding. Afghan commandos crossed the border into Pakistan on accident which led to fighting… the Pakistani forces crossed the Afghan border (plainclothes) with English blowpipes to take down Soviet and DRAAF aircraft but to no avail.
1. https://community.apan.org/cfs-file/__key/docpreview-s/00-00-09-39-44/2001_2D00_09_2D00_01-The-Campaign-for-the-Caves-_2800_Grau-and-Jalali_2900_.pdf#page20
2. https://books.google.com/books?id=Hb8xAwAAQBAJ&dq=second+battle+of+zhawar+pakistan&pg=PA54 AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 19:27, 18 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Pakistan was recently removed from the infobox as a belligerent but I recently found a source (“Afghanistan: The Bear Trap” by ISI Brigadier Mohammed Youssaf and Mark Adkin), and on the very first page, that Youssaf covertly sent Pakistani Army teams into Afghanistan to assist the Mujahideen:
—
“He organised and directed the training of the Mujahideen in secret camps within his own country, and covertly sent Pakistan Army teams inside Afghanistan to assist the guerrillas in their campaign of ambushes, assassinations, raids and rocket attacks, a campaign that forced the Soviets to realise that they could never win.” AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 16:24, 11 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@AfghanParatrooper19891:, @Grechkovsky: and 2600:1700:3D58:900:64A5:6A77:15A6:E76E, all of you have reached a consensus on adding Pakistan and I also support the decision based on clear sources. Pakistan not only sent mujahideen to fight in the war but many Pakistani SSG commandos personally fought in the war and the article literally mentions that 5,775 Pakistanis were killed in the war. We should add Pakistan back to the infobox. Ali Koya Varakkal (talk) 01:31, 6 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Afghan Army casualties may be higher than they appear

I recently found an excerpt which states that Afghan Army casualties were 70,000 from 1979–1988, and that Pakistani intelligence confirmed this number at the time (with a reference to ‘Table 34’, although I do not have the actual book). 7,000 died every year.

The excerpt states:

“Yet losses cannot explain the ground forces' poor performance, as in fact they were not particularly severe. A total of 70,000 government troops were killed between 1979 and 1988, a serious but not unsustainable yearly loss rate of 7,000. Pakistani intelligence sources confirm this figure (see Table 34). Nor were losses of equipment very high (see Table 36).” AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 23:58, 1 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Osama bin laden

Osama was not part of the mujahideen which were mainly comprised of different Afghan factions. Osama was part of a separate group of fighters known as “Afghan Arabs” who arrived in 1985. They were self funded and not supported by the US government. I request that his name should be removed from the list 2607:FEA8:4D80:6F80:DD09:62EB:6C9F:1F39 (talk) 11:51, 24 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Removing unimportant names

@Noorullah21:, I recently removed some unimportant names from the template such as Bashir Baghlani, Mullah Naqib and others. The Template:Infobox military conflict states that "For wars, only prominent or notable leaders should be listed, with an upper limit of about seven per combatant column recommended". I recommend removing Mullah Omar and Osama bin Laden too as they weren't leaders of any mujahideen group at the time. Only group leaders, such as Massoud, Hekmatyar, Khalis, Azzam etc. should be included on the mujahideen side. Ali Koya Varakkal (talk) 20:15, 4 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Mullah Naqib led his own group.
Osama Bin Laden did as well, Omar also formed his own group. Many of the individuals you're naming did form their own groups, so I suggest you do further research.
Not sure about Bashir Baghlani. Moreover seven is a recommendation, not a hard cap/limit. The case of the Mujahideen is also extremely nuanced to argue "prominent or notable leaders", as the Mujahideen was a decentralized organization, not a one group led effort. The term "Mujahideen" is simply an umbrella term for this topic. Noorullah (talk) 22:34, 5 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
You're suggesting me to do further research when you didn't provide any source regarding Mullah Naqib, bin Laden or Omar forming their own groups. As far as I have researched, Naqib fought under Jamiat-e Islami (which was led by Ahmad Shah Massoud and Burhanuddin Rabbani), Omar fought under Faizullah Akhundzada, the commander of a group affiliated with Harakat-i-Inqilab-i-Islami (which was led by Mohammad Nabi Mohammadi) while bin Laden was the co-founder of Maktab al-Khidamat and I'm fine with keeping him. Baghlani is not mentioned in the article nor does his own article have anything important about the war; he seems to have been a member of the Hezb-e Islami Gulbuddin (led by Gulbuddin Hekmatyar). As such, only the leaders of different militias should be listed under the Mujahideen table, such as Massoud, Rabbani, Hekmatyar, Mohammadi, Haqqani, Azzam and bin Laden. And yes, seven is recommended we can have more but we literally have 23 commanders in Mujahideen and 25 commanders in Soviet/Afghan communist government. It definitely needs to be a lot lesser. Ali Koya Varakkal (talk) 23:02, 5 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
"You're suggesting me to do further research when you didn't provide any source regarding Mullah Naqib, bin Laden or Omar forming their own groups." - Omar formed his own group, leaving Faizullah Akhundzada.
"Boots on the Ground The Fight to Liberate Afghanistan from Al-Qaeda and the Taliban, 2001-2002" (page 58) mentions he commanded a group of Mujahideen (and more details about it, and where he operated).
"My Life with the Taliban" by Abdul Salem Zaeff mentions Omar as one among other principal commanders in page 42.
For Bin Laden, see Maktab al-Khidamat (as you mentioned).
Like you showed, I think Baghlani can be removed, no issue with that.
For Mullah Naqib, he's mentioned as a Senior commander in Afghan Guerrilla Warfare: In the Words of the Mjuahideen Fighters [1] in page 312. @Ali Koya Varakkal Noorullah (talk) 00:55, 6 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the sources but this still doesn't prove Omar and Naqib had any prominent role. Abdul Salam Zaeef is a Taliban member and not a reliable source. I've not seen any reliable source claiming Omar had any prominent role as a commander. He seems to have fought as a regular soldier first under Faizullah Akhundzada and then under Hezb-i Islami Khalis as per his own article. Nevertheless, Omar was an obscure and relatively unknown figure until the rise of the Taliban in 1994. Before that, there is barely any mention of Omar and most of the sources about him fighting in the war are written after the Taliban's rise, asserting that he was insignificant (in contrast to ObL, Azzam, Massoud etc.). And with regards to ObL, I said that I have no issue I'm fine with keeping him as he gained reputation during the war, especially at the Battle of Jaji, not after al-Qaeda was created. Ali Koya Varakkal (talk) 01:24, 6 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Omar still commanded a group of Mujahideen, and operated as a commander (as mentioned in the first source I provided). He was originally a simple soldier but became a commander. And as you brought up his own wiki page.. "In the last years of the war, some mujahideen groups split up, and Omar and his friends left Faizullah Akhundzada's group. They formed a new group under Omar's leadership, based at Aday, in the Singesar area, then in the Panjwayi District and now in Zhari District, and became registered with Harakat-i-Inqilab-i-Islami as an affiliated group"
It's clear he's a relevant commander.
Naqib, also as mentioned, was a senior commander and also led his own forces. Noorullah (talk) 05:03, 6 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE - if their inclusion is not supported by the body of the article, then they don't belong in the infobox. Seven is not a hard and fast number but we shouldn't be having twice that number. We should be reducing infobox bloat. Cinderella157 (talk) 22:56, 5 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
"Seven is not a hard and fast number but we shouldn't be having twice that number." -
The issue is the war is very convoluted. See for example, the Hundred Years War. There was so many principal commanders because it spanned over such a long period of time.
The issue in our case is that the Mujahideen was an extremely decentralized organization that had many prominent leaders. Restricting the number of commanders here in our case is rather, unfaithful to reality. I do concur there can be removal where needed, as my discussion above has shown some can be removed such as Bashir Baghlani. @Cinderella157 Noorullah (talk) 00:58, 6 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Again, we should only have leaders of mainstream factions in the infobox. By your logic, we would have to fit in literally every commander over here as there were at least over 40 different mujahideen groups. Now, we obviously cannot have some 40 names in this. And also, you still haven't provided any source for Naqib leading his own group. Ali Koya Varakkal (talk) 12:50, 6 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I did provide a source for Naqib in one of the replies, perhaps you missed it. [2]
I do agree though that there should be discussion on what to include, versus not. However again, "leaders of the mujahideen" is vague. The Mujahideen was decentralized and did not have one organized leadership or leader, it was numerous individuals with their own groups.
For the case of Omar, I'd say he's politically significant for the years to come and had a rather distinguished service in the Soviet Afghan War from personally fighting and eventually becoming a commander in a major district. Noorullah (talk) 16:17, 6 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Both, Mullah Omar and Osama bin Laden, were unimportant figures during the war. They are only included because of their later significance.

As a result, their status was much higher than Mullah Omar’s. While he might have been skilled in firing rockets, he had never been made a commander during the jihad against the Soviets, simply because he was not important enough.[1]

In reality, the Arab role in evicting the Soviet Union was minuscule. […] Thus the claim that Afghan Arabs helped liberate Afghanistan borders on the preposterous. Some Arabs recognized this; Abdallah Anas later noted that “the truth requires that we admit that the Arabs … played a minor role; they were a drop in the ocean compared with the effort of the Afghans.”[2]

Jo1971 (talk) 21:57, 7 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Disagreeing with Omar's claim. There's sources that call him a Senior commander as I showed above. "Bette Dam" is also not a historian, but an "investigative journalist". See WP:HISTRS.
Regarding Bin Laden, that'd be open to more discussion. But again, the Mujahideen is not one centralized unit with a sole consensus of leadership, which is why it's difficult to draw these boundaries. Noorullah (talk) 09:08, 11 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Bette Dam at least wrote a biography about Mullah Omar and your source is also not a historian. Your quote does not prove that Mullah Omar was important, even if he commanded a few fighters, that does not mean he was so important to include him in the infobox. How many men did he command? 10, 20, 50? Ahmed Rashid writes he fought under commander Nek Mohammed.

Omar joined Khalis’s Hizb-e-Islami and fought under commander Nek Mohammed against the Najibullah regime between 1989 and 1992. He was wounded four times, once in the right eye which is now permanently blinded.[3]

Barnett Rubin writes he was a mid-level commander.

He became a mid-level commander of Muhammadi’s Harakat-i Inqilab, lost one of his eyes in battle, and was cared for in the hospital of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) in Quetta.[4]

Alex Strick van Linschoten and Felix Kuehn just briefly mention Mullah Omar's role during the 1980s but nothing to indicate that he was important at the time.

A number of prominent Taliban who came to play key roles in the 1994 movement joined ranks with Hizb-e Islami, most notably Mullah Mohammad Omar himself.[5]

Chris Sands and Fazelminallah Qazizai describe Mullah Omar as "an insignificant mujahid".

The Taliban, as the young villagers were collectively known, were led by Mullah Mohammed Omar, an insignificant mujahid who had lost an eye fighting for one of the smaller parties during the anti-Soviet jihad.[6]

And if Mullah Omar was really important during the 1980s, shouldn't we find something about his role in the standard literature? For example, the following two books about the Afghan resistance during the 1980s include exactly nothing about Mullah Omar: [7][8]
Jo1971 (talk) 10:26, 11 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE, the infobox is a summary of key facts from the body of the article. The article should remain complete without the infobox and we are warned not to bloat the infobox (less is better). The template parameter is for key or significant commanders and leaders. The body of the article needs to evidence why they appear in the infobox and are key or significant in the context of the article. Articles must be self-contained. Without meeting this, the reader is not informed as to why someone is appearing in the infobox. A passing mention does not evidence that they were key or significant. The guidance in the template doc to limit the number is consistent with INFOBOXPURPOSE and avoiding bloat. Just because they were a leader does not mean that they were key or significant. The infobox for WW2 and the discussions leading to the presentation of the commanders/leaders therein is a better example of best practice (represented by P&G) than the Hundred Years War. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:48, 6 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Dam, Bette (2021). Looking for the Enemy: Mullah Omar and the Unknown Taliban. HarperCollins. p. 109. ISBN 978-93-5489279-0.
  2. ^ Hegghammer, Thomas (2020). The Caravan: Abdallah Azzam and the Rise of Global Jihad. Cambridge University Press. p. 365. doi:10.1017/9781139049375. ISBN 978-0-521-76595-4.
  3. ^ Rashid, Ahmed (2022). Taliban: The Power of Militant Islam in Afghanistan and Beyond (3rd ed.). Yale University Press. p. 24. ISBN 978-0-300-26682-5.
  4. ^ Rubin, Barnett R. (2020). Afghanistan: What Everyone Needs to Know. Oxford University Press. p. 96. ISBN 978-0-19-049664-7.
  5. ^ Strick van Linschoten, Alex; Kuehn, Felix (2012). An Enemy We Created: The Myth of the Taliban–Al-Qaeda Merger in Afghanistan. Oxford University Press. p. 47. ISBN 978-0-19-992731-9.
  6. ^ Sands, Chris; Qazizai, Fazelminallah (2019). Night Letters: Gulbuddin Hekmatyar and the Afghan Islamists Who Changed the World. Hurst & Company. p. 353. ISBN 978-0-199-32798-0.
  7. ^ Roy, Olivier (1990). Islam and Resistance in Afghanistan (2nd ed.). Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-39700-1.
  8. ^ Dorronsoro, Gilles (2005). Revolution Unending: Afghanistan, 1979 to the Present. Hurst & Company. ISBN 1-85065-703-3.
allikas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Soviet%E2%80%93Afghan_War