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Why is the NPOV dispute archived (missing) on this talk page? [Afterthought added 14:30, 30 June 2020:] Warnings were dismissed that people might get hurt mere days before people were actually killed. 86.93.208.34 (talk) 14:21, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Talk page guidelines advise: Large talk pages are difficult to read and load slowly over slow connections. As a rule of thumb, archive closed discussions when a talk page exceeds 75 KB or has multiple resolved or stale discussions. What constitutes a "stale" discussion is left to local consensus. In this case, automatic archiving by lowercase sigmabot III has been set for threads with no replies in 7 days. This was done only after the talk page had surpassed 75 sections and editors agreed that more aggressive archiving was appropriate. The archived NPOV discussion can now be found here. While a thread may be unarchived by copying it back to the talk page from the archive, and deleting it from the archive, that would best be done as the result of consensus. The guidelines further advise: Do not unarchive a thread that was effectively closed; instead, start a new discussion and link to the archived prior discussion. NedFausa (talk) 14:51, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Would somebody please add? https://www.foxnews.com/us/seattle-chop-shooting-protest 192.107.159.198 (talk) 12:26, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Done. NedFausa (talk) 14:28, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Seattle Times article from June 29 contains a statement within the graphic map stating "Core area of CHOP-specific boundaries vary daily". At the least, the article should mention something to this effect, no?

I have read a few news reports defining the shrinking boundaries over time but have yet to organize and relocate the sources for specifics. Territory section would be improved by more clarity on where the boundaries were at the outset, followed by how they have changed week by week. Must step away from this for a bit (after a mighty dark news day) but plan to look for details on territory later. Kind Regards, Cedar777 (talk) 03:19, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

At a June 29 news briefing, Police Chief Best identified herself as "an African American woman." She also said, "Two African American men are dead, at a place where they claim to be working for Black Lives Matter." In reporting this, The Seattle Times added, "Seattle police initially said the person who was killed Monday was an adult, but later corrected that to 16 years old." Wikipedia originally quoted Best verbatim. Now Bri has inserted {sic} after "men" in Best's quotation, explaining in his edit summary: we said "boy" prior. note discrepancy with "sic". If there is a significant error in the original, MOS:SIC advises, follow it with the template {sic} to show that the error was not made by Wikipedia. As it stands, however, our pinpointing of "men" as a significant error by Chief Best, without informing readers about the SPD's early misidentification prompting the chief to misspeak, seems like Wikipedia is drawing attention to the political correctness of an African American public official straining to avoid using boy (with its racist connotations) in describing a fellow African American. This is not a good look. NedFausa (talk) 16:35, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe we should identify the individuals by age instead of man/boy. I noted that the June 20 death, called “man” by most media, was an individual who had graduated high school one day before he died. ☆ Bri (talk) 16:40, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You're missing the point. I've questioned your tinkering with GF edit of the verbatim quotation from the chief of police. You can revise content before and after that quotation as you see fit. But inserting {sic} therein is problematic. NedFausa (talk) 16:47, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)Please don’t describe GF edits as “tinkering”, it’s kind of condescending. I’ll wait and see what other people say here. ☆ Bri (talk) 16:55, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The inclusion of that quote in the lede seems like excessive detail to me. It should be saved for the appropriate section of the main text, where the needed correction or clarification can be given in full sentences, rather than hoping that the meaning of a "sic" will be clear. XOR'easter (talk) 16:52, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Agree that it is confusing for readers to have the 16-year-old referred to as both a man and a boy. Summarizing Police Chief Best's position (as expressed during the press conference of June 29), without directly quoting her words, would clear this up. I also support the above suggestions to list the victims by age rather than man/boy and to shift the details of the quote into the main article, rather than the lede, to better serve readers. In my view, it makes sense to simplify the language of several other views currently quoted there as well. Cedar777 (talk) 21:19, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I believe this may warrant an entry on the article. The inclusion or exclusion of news coverage regarding CHOP, even news that can be considered critically important, varies strikingly between US news organisations depending on their political affiliation. https://www.foxnews.com/media/seattle-chop-violence-media-insisted-peaceful 86.93.208.34 (talk) 01:16, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe - let's see how it develops. Ed6767 talk! 01:17, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fox News focuses on what it calls "spin" by The Seattle Times, making it "perhaps the most egregious when it came to celebrating the cop-free area." Our Wikipedia page relies heavily on The Seattle Times, which accounts for 18% of our references (32 of 177). If we editors have succumbed to spin, this article will require a significant overhaul to comply with WP:NPOV. NedFausa (talk) 02:11, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree and see no logical correlation between the news source and your inferred conclusion. Your worry that the Wikipedia article will require significant overhaul if we are to question “The Seattle Times” is false logic. The wikipedia CHOP page is created by editors who weigh all reputable sources and therefore cancel out any potential inherent bias of using only one source. This is proven by the fact that “The Seattle Times” only accounts for 18% of the sources used, far from a “significant” percentage. The editors have therefore not succumbed to spin and there is no need to overhaul the article.

The allegation in the source of some media channels “picking and choosing” which news to publish on CHOP and which to hide are easily verified. The absence of negative news articles on CHOP (including violence, shooting, murder, even its dissolution) on CNN and MSNBC front pages, are noteworthy.

If this political censorship reaches a level that garners attention, it may need to be reflected in the article. 86.93.208.34 (talk) 04:30, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fox News literally Photoshopped pictures of the CHOP [1]. Why should they be taken as arbiters of who is biased? Moreover, the allegations of media bias in the aforelinked are recapitulations of claims from NewsBusters and the Media Research Center, essentially propaganda outfits deemed generally unreliable by Wikipedia consensus. Nor have the Seattle Times — or any local media that have reported at any substantial length about the event — flinched away from the violence that took place. XOR'easter (talk) 04:58, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

But MSNBC and CNN are totally reliable and unbiased and not by any stretch of the imagination essentially propaganda outfits? Hahahahaha! They’ve both been that for at least the past four years. Boscaswell talk 03:01, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The government in Anarchist. Someone should add that. Nitric Acidd (talk) 01:53, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"The government in anarchist?" Nah. Personally, I don't think the article is worthy of its own entry on Wikipedia either.--Kieronoldham (talk) 02:25, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

African American Antonio Mays Jr was the victim.^[1] Reaper7 (talk) 15:54, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Cited source does not identify race of victim, which I have removed from our article. NedFausa (talk) 16:16, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Update. I found a reference to identify victim's race, and added it to our article. NedFausa (talk) 16:36, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've posted under talk before but it's been a while. Under the "Background" section in this article it lists Capitol Hill as being in "Downtown" Seattle. I live a couple of blocks from CHAZ/CHOP on Capitol Hill and it is very much not "Downtown". In fact, the Wikipedia article about Capitol Hill claims it is "just east of the city's downtown central business district". Capitol Hill is east of I-5 and downtown is west of I-5. Since there's no "Edit" option for the "Background" section I'm not sure how else to correct this. I believe describing Capitol Hill as "just outside of downtown Seattle" or "northeast of downtown Seattle" would be valid. EDIT: You could even call it "central Seattle" but it's just not downtown. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill,_Seattle — Preceding unsigned comment added by Douglasm69 (talk • contribs) 07:16, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I have modified that sentence to bring it in line with the description in the Capitol Hill, Seattle article. There isn't an "edit" option because the article is currently semi-protected, meaning that it can only be edited by users whose accounts are at least four days old and who have made at least ten edits. This is a fairly common precautionary measure for articles that attract drive-by vandalism, including controversial current events that are much in the media spotlight. XOR'easter (talk) 07:53, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Local governance in the zone was decentralized, with the goal of creating a neighborhood without police."

Unless I'm missing something this really could do with re-casting, and probably reframing. It's not clear what it's trying to say, or what it says.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough 01:27, 5 July 2020 (UTC).[reply]

The possibility has been raised before, with no firm consensus emerging, but that was multiple weeks ago. To my eye, the coverage since then seemingly settled upon "CHOP" as the common term, with "Capitol Hill Organized Protest" the preferred expansion. What do the folks here think? XOR'easter (talk) 15:31, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support moving the article to CHOP for Capitol Hill Organized Protest as this was the most commonly used name after the first week. Better to have CHAZ as a redirect. The CHAZ/CHOP was an entity for approximately three weeks, two weeks of which it went by the modified name CHOP. There was a lag until some of the media outlets made the change but it is clearly documented in the article as an agreed upon choice by the majority of demonstrators made on June 13. Thanks and Kind Regards, Cedar777 (talk) 05:35, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: please use the procedure outlined at WP:RM. Are you proposing CHOP? StAnselm (talk) 15:47, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wanted to sound out the idea and find if there would be any support at all before starting the whole WP:RM process, with the templates and all (and to see if I'll have a contiguous block of available wiki-editing time this week...). A more detailed proposal will be forthcoming, I hope. XOR'easter (talk) 17:20, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know where KOMO-TV gets its information, but Toese has been long associated with a group based in Vancouver, Washington known as Patriot Prayer. I know this because this scumbag group has been an annoyance in Portland, insisting that, although as welcome as a COVID-19 outbreak, they exercise their "Freedom of Speech" in our city, & Toese is one of the most prominent members. His association with Patriot Prayer is attested in these sources: Willamette Week, 12 September 2017; Willamette Week, 24 May 2018; Willamette Week, 20 February 2019; Oregon Public Broadcasting, 23 June 2020; & countless other sources which I'd be happy to share here. Reliable sources have been known to be wrong. Besides, he's not Caucasian, so Proud Boys would not be eager to let him join, no matter how well he abstains from masturbation. Unfortunately, Toese belongs to this local RWNJ group -- not the better known RWNJ group, Proud Boys, although he has probably associated with them. -- llywrch (talk) 03:31, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Slowly learning more about Patriot Prayer, Proud Boys, and in particular, Toese who has apparently been covered by news media for his activities in the Pacific NW for several years now. From the WW articles linked above, he seems to have a pattern of associating with individuals from both groups: Proud Boys and Patriot Prayer. From what I can gather, Patriot Prayer is a regional group more specifically linked to the Pacific Northwest while the Proud Boys are both more widely known and distributed with classification as a hate group by Southern Poverty Law Center.

It may be worth concisely summarizing his notoriety, and the history of law enforcement enabling him for a time, in order to contextualize what his appearance at CHOP meant to activists at the site. There are several other articles that specifically cover his involvement with CHOP that I will make an effort to add in another comment. Kind Regards, Cedar777 (talk) 08:58, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

According to this KIRO7 report:

suspect-arrested-near-i-5-downtown-seattle-after-fleeing-police

• SEATTLE — Seattle police on Thursday arrested a prominent leader of CHOP, the protest zone they cleared Wednesday.
• Multiple sources identified the man arrested after a brief chase from Capitol Hill to I-5 as a protest leader known as River.
• He was among the CHOP leaders who met with Mayor Jenny Durkan last week.

So, there is at least one other leader, "River." This man has been in the media in reference to CHAZ described as its leader, in one story confronting Seattle activist Andre Taylor (founder of the Seattle based group, Not This Time, www.notthistime.global) and in other reports is shown leading internal rallies in the capitol zone. There are at least three media sources referencing him as a CHAZ leader such as the Seattle Times and KOMO-TV news. Would adding to the section Internal Governance, besides the sentence naming Raz Simone, another reference to this man, River, be prudent?

Thanks for any comments. This is Wikipedia. Please participate.

Keep up the good work. 172.250.237.36 (talk) 11:52, 17 July 2020 (UTC) בס״ד[reply]

Naming additional individuals who had some kind of leadership role is, in principle, fine; however, we must be careful to distinguish between those who led an individual protest event (e.g., marched at the front of a single specific march), those with a greater organizational role, and those who get tagged "leader" in some media coverage simply because it is a convenient designation for an identifiable public face who is willing to go on television. XOR'easter (talk) 17:27, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We have settled on the duration of Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone from June 8, 2020–July 1, 2020. However, protests in the area have continued, as reported by multiple sources that we cited in documenting the occupation. On July 20, for example, MyNorthwest.com reported:

Police say 12 officers were injured, several businesses damaged, and two people arrested during a large demonstration that began in downtown Seattle on Sunday. ...
The group made its way up to Capitol Hill where police say people committed more property damage and looting. A fire was set inside one of the businesses after the windows were busted out. Several people smashed the front windows at the East Precinct. Someone threw a large, mortar-type firework inside the precinct's lobby, causing a small fire. It was quickly extinguished.
Once at Cal Anderson Park, the group of demonstrators dispersed.

My question is: should these protests be included in our article? CHAZ/CHOP sprang from and existed within a larger sociopolitical context, which it then profoundly affected. Subsequent demonstrations on Capitol Hill, particularly involving the East Precinct, may in part comprise the occupation zone's legacy. To ignore that seems unencyclopedic. NedFausa (talk) 17:01, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In the 11 hours since I created this talk page section, there has been another development that illustrates the need for continuing coverage past July 1, 2020. Donnitta Sinclair, mother of Lorenzo Anderson, the 19-year-old man shot dead in the zone on June 20, has filed a wrongful death claim against the city of Seattle, alleging that city officials created a dangerous environment and failed to provide medical help to her son as he lay dying. Her claim, reports KOMO-TV, "is the first step toward a lawsuit that she plans to file against the city of Seattle. Under state law, a claim must be filed 60 days before filing a lawsuit." Obviously this relates to CHAZ. Just as obviously, it's unlikely to be resolved anytime soon. How do we deal with this? NedFausa (talk) 04:04, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I had contemplated writing an "Aftermath" section of some sort, since I'd seen some retrospective coverage (here's a browser tab I had open, which led to this item on the wrongful death claim you mention). I'm a bit concerned that the article, which is already on the bulky side, could become a catalogue of every protest happening in the Seattle area, but that's an issue we can face when we come to it, I suppose. XOR'easter (talk) 04:33, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You're right to resist cataloging every protest in Seattle, and of course we should not do so in this article. However, when a violent protest on Capitol Hill targets the East Precinct, or when Lorenzo Anderson's mom files a wrongful death claim against the city, it's clear that our task of documenting CHAZ is not done. NedFausa (talk) 04:47, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]