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Obviously, there has been an "edit war" over the issue of Harriet Harman's political roles as well as the time she took over from John Prescott. Let me make a few things very clear, she is the Shadow Deputy Prime Minister for several reasons. Firstly, you cannot use a title unless you have been given it by the Leader of your party. Ed Miliband has made her Shadow Deputy Prime Minister, otherwise it would not be on her website. She has no right to give herself a title unless it's been allowed. Therefore, I think it is fair to conclude that from that point, she is Shadow Deputy PM. Deputy Leader of the Opposition is not a clear title, though she is deputy leader of the Opposition, it is not a formal title it is just because she is the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party. For example, William Hague was made Senior Member of the Shadow Cabinet, but he never recieved the title Deputy Leader of the Opposition, even though he was the de facto Deputy. On the point, about Khan. He shadows Clegg regarding the constituion and that is because Labour thinks the MoJ should deal with the constitution whereas the government has made Nick Clegg the de facto Minister for Constitutional Reform, instead of leaving it to Ken Clarke.--195.171.221.67 (talk) 12:16, 15 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

First, no one knows the point you are trying to make regarding Prescott. Harman took over as Deputy Leader at the same time Brown took over as Leader, so there is no reason why Blair should be listed.

Second, it is no secret that Khan's shadowing Clegg in regards to his political and constitutional reform portfolio. What you fail to grasp is that that is part of the role of the Shadow Deputy Prime Minister. That is why Khan's team and others question him on political and constitutional reform issues at "Deputy Prime Minister's Questions", not "Political and Constitutional Reform", or even Cabinet Office, Questions.

Third, you say that since a person cannot claim a title that they don't genuinely given, and since Harman calls herself Shadow Deputy Prime Minister, she was was therefore given the title. The premise is flawed. There is nothing to stop her from calling herself "Shadow Deputy Prime Minister" to describe her role holding the DPM to account. It is also not true that a person cannot claim a title she doesn't have. Of course someone can; it is absurd to suggest otherwise. Given that she was upset that Gordon Brown didn't appoint her Deputy Prime Minister and give her a better portfolio when he was leader, she is exactly the sort of person who would stretch a bit and call herself something she isn't, as long as it's close.

Third, a flawed argument from logic isn't needed. What is needed is to look to the most authoritative sources: the Labour Party's and Parliament's shadow cabinet lists. The are the record we have for what titles the leader granted. When Jack Straw held the post, he was "Acting Shadow Deputy Prime Minister". Do they call her "Shadow Deputy Prime Minister"? No, each calls her "Deputy Leader". Labour calls her "Deputy Leader and Shadow Secretary of State for International Development".[1] Parliament calls her "Deputy Leader and Shadow Secretary of State for International Development".[2] Her biography there lists "Deputy Leader of the Opposition 2010-; Shadow Secretary of State for International Development 2010-" as her only current roles.[3]

Finally, as that last link shows, she is Deputy Leader of the Opposition. Inclusion of the title at her parliamentary bio isn't just an accident. I asked the House of Commons Information Office to double check her titles and explain what was meant by "Deputy Leader". The informed me that she is "Deputy Leader of the Opposition".

The authoritative sources have been consulted, and one of them even questioned directly, and the unambiguous answer from those sources is that she is Deputy Leader of the Opposition and Shadow Secretary of State for Development, not Shadow Deputy Prime Minister. -Rrius (talk) 18:32, 15 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why not ask her about it? And, in the meantime, put something like "her personal website describes her as Shadow DPM, however neither the Labour Party site [4] nor the Parliament site [5] recognise this title." ?

As to the first point, I have already sent a request to through that very site and to Ed Miliband as a press inquiry. On the second point, I would have no objection to a note after "Deputy Leader of the Opposition" saying that she claims the title "Shadow Deputy Prime Minister", but the reverse would be unacceptable. With the authoritative sources using the one title and not the other, it is clear which should be in the infobox and which should be in the note. -Rrius (talk) 18:48, 15 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good to me. What does our IP friend say to that? Well done for writing in to them. --bodnotbod (talk) 19:28, 15 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, I am sure that Rrius is lying.Secondly, her website, the Guardian, the BBC, the LSE, several Labour Party websites, Labour MPs, Ed Milband in many different sources have confirmed her as Shadow Deputy Prime Minister. They are not allowed to give her a title which is not hers, for example that is like William Hague giving himself the official title Deputy Leader of the Conservative Party! It's nonsentical. She could not use a title which is not hers, the fact her party have used it shows she is the SHADOW DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER. I have consensus, I have support and I also have a TON of information which is accessible to all! Now, can you please allow me to continue editing instead of making yourself look even more foolish than you already do! You cannot block me since you are in in fact the one guilty of misconduct such as blanking my page, deleting information that backs up my point, being aggressive and attempting to block me without the power - in order words vandalism. Now, you are vandalizing Harriet Harman's page which has been already established as SHADOW DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER! Get a grip. Sadiq Khan shadows constitutional affairs, he is NOT the Shadow Deputy Prime Minister, his role is because traditionally under the Labour government the Lord Chancellor has ALWAYS been responsible for matters involving the constitution. Nick Clegg wants that power, so he took charge, normally it is the Ministry of Justice's power! If you weren't such a vandal, and knew something about politics maybe I wouldn't have to teach you a few home truths about Westminster politics. --195.171.221.67 (talk) 12:54, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly - Rruis is not lying, he might be in good faith mistaken but accusations such as lying are considered personal attacks here and continuation of such comments may well get your editing privileges restricted - see WP:NPA. Please keep it polite, thanks. Secondly, it clearly is disputable, so get a WP:3O or start a WP:rfc. Its also a minor issue unworthy of all this dispute, so reel it in a bit please. Off2riorob (talk) 13:26, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

To Off2riorob - I apologize but I personally do not believe he is being honest. He is vandalizing my talk page in order to conceal information that was given to me and he denied it though I have evidence, now he claims that he spoke to the Commons information office. He also has been posting threats on my page, which is not true. I have got a stack of sources from Labour, LSE, Guardian and others which say Harriet Harman is Shadow Deputy Prime Minister, not Deputy Leader of the Opposition. I think we should reach an agreement but I am not going to put up with bullying. Also, why hasn't Rrius got a warning from you about edit warring, surely he should too - if not he should be blocked!--195.171.221.67 (talk) 20:23, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Outrageous. Show me one edit at your talk page where I have removed anything. I've already challenged you on that falsehood, and that you persist in it makes it very hard to believe you aren't just lying to cast aspersions on me. I was willing to believe you just don't know what you are talking about, but that is becoming untenable.

You are now accusing me of "posting threats" and "bullying" you, but all I did was warn you, twice I think, that if you persist in edit warring you'll be blocked. Those were warnings (indeed, one used the edit-warring user warning template), not threats.

As for who gets warned, I have been trying to discuss this with you on this talk page and even on yours for weeks. You've had to be dragged kicking and screaming into a discussion, and even after joining have persisted in edit warring despite there being no reasonable claim that you have obtained consensus on the talk page.

And yes, I exchanged emails with the House of Commons Information Office, and they confirmed that she is the "Deputy Leader of the Opposition". I'm happy to prove it, as well as the fact that I have already sent e-mails to Miliband's and Harman's offices, but I don't know how. -Rrius (talk) 21:28, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Whereas he has been reverting you - you have been reverted by multiple editors. Also in the last 24 hours- he appears to have a single revert and you have at least three. Off2riorob (talk) 20:42, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I will post a WP:RFC if you want to discuss and attract new attention..? Off2riorob (talk) 20:47, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Post a WP:RFC but I will not accept bias. Other editors agree with the stance taken on Harriet Harman and have also been reverting the ludicrous changes made by others. I have got a load of sources, and I will show them but I hope we could come to an unbiased solution to the issue, rather than resorting to threats. Surely, he should be blocked for vandalism and personal abuse.--195.171.221.67 (talk) 12:16, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am not seeing anything to warrant blocking of anyone. Lets just try and find a solution ot the content dispute. What question shall I ask for the RFC? Off2riorob (talk) 12:33, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Are there reliable sources to describe Harmen as the Shadow Deputy Prime Minister? See - Deputy Leader of the Labour Party (UK) for detail - These sources have been presented to support the claim.

• http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12244589
• http://fresh-ideas.org.uk/harriet-harman-the-famine-in-the-horn-of-africa-is-causing-suffe
• http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/08/harriet-harman-100-women
• http://www.dec.org.uk/appeals/east-africa-crisis-appeal/harriet-harman-visit
• http://www.keepthepromise.co.uk/we-must-ensure-aid-promise-is-not-broken---harriet-harman
• http://www.tcs.cam.ac.uk/story_type/site_trail_story/interview-harriet-harman-mp/
• http://lcid.org.uk/2011/02/08/harriet-harmans-letter-to-mitchell/
• http://www2.lse.ac.uk/publicEvents/pdf/20110203%20Harriet%20Harman%20transcript.pdf
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeahwKpeyoQ
• http://www.jackiebaillie.co.uk/deputy-labour-leader-visits-local-candidate
• http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Harriet_Harman
• http://www.labournorth.com/north-charity-cut-figures-could-just-be-the-tip-of-the-iceberg--
• http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0132pvf
• http://just-fair.co.uk/hub/single/child_poverty_and_social_mobility_commission/
• http://www2.lse.ac.uk/publicEvents/events/2011/20110203t1830vHKT.aspx
• http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1354043/Oliver-proves-s-big-cheese.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.171.221.67 (talk) 18:56, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• RfC stalker here:

1. OTRS question to her office will resolve the matter conclusively - suggest this be done
2. In the meantime, lets go with what her official bio (ie Deputy Leader of the Oppo/Shadow for Int) says unless there is any reliable source verifiable (ie not OR or SYNTH) that contradicts it - which doesnt seem to be the case. All "contradictions" are incidental, ie they use different terminology without explaining why, which cannot be used as evidence of an intent to contradict unless other sources say so (ie cannot do OR/SYNTH) on it.

It seems to me that the moniker of "Shadow Deputy PM" in RS is used informally to describe her de facto role in the Oppo to a coalition gvt, but it is also clear that the nature of a coalition govt has created complexities the media has not updated their language for. We seek facts from sources, not transcribe them (ie not transcription monkeys), so we have to look at this background.--Cerejota (talk) 16:19, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Surely, with the amount of sources clearly stating that Harriet Harman is the Shadow Deputy Prime Minister (including her own letter to Andrew Mitchell and her own website), wouldn't it be fair on the basis of clear sources an evidence to call Harriet Harman "Shadow Deputy Prime Minister". I have looked for other sources and I have found very little - only one in fact - which calls Harriet Harman "Deputy Leader of the Opposition. That source was in fact an edit made by User:Rrius on the Official Opposition Shadow Cabinet page on Wikipedia.--195.171.221.67 (talk) 19:03, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

First, to address Cerejota: I have already sent an email to Harman's office and Ed Miliband's office but have not yet received replies. I agree with your characterisation of what is going on in IP's sources, with the addition that Harman seems to call herself "Shadow Deputy Prime Minister" and some of the other sources may well, in fact some seem to be, merely drawing from that.

To IP: The number of sources is irrelevant. Despite what you have said in edit summaries, no one is suggesting that Harman is lying or filling her page with "nonsense". If she calls herself that to provide a simple description of part of her duties, there is really nothing wrong with that. But that is different from her having been officially granted the title by Ed Miliband. So the question becomes, how do we know what titles Ed Miliband has granted her? The best evidence available is the Shadow Cabinet List. Miliband posted it on the Labour website and gave a copy to the House of Commons Information Office. The version on the Labour website calls her "Deputy Leader and Shadow Secretary of State for International Development", the version on the Parliament website says exactly the same thing. Harman's bio on the Parliament website says "Deputy Leader of the Opposition 2010-; Shadow Secretary of State for International Development 2010-". Because the Parliament Shadow Cabinet list only says "Deputy Leader", I sent them an e-mail asking about it, and I received the following response:

1. Thank you for pointing this out, I have taken the matter up with the House of Lords Information Office and hope that this will be resolved shortly.

2. Because Harriet Harman is listed directly beneath Ed Milliband, whose full title as Leader of Her Majesty’s Official Opposition is given, we would hope that the fact that she is Deputy Leader of Her Majesty’ Official Opposition would be clear without having to repeat the full title. To my knowledge this is the first time it has been queried but I will look into whether it is a common misunderstanding and of course amend the page if necessary.

I hope this is helpful.

Kind regards

Lynne Preece

I would have left out the first paragraph, which is about an unrelated issue dealing with Lords whips, but I figured IP would make more false accusations against me if I did. I would also like to address a point IP has made about custom. He suggests that it is always "Shadow Deputy Prime Minister". That is in fact not true. No leader of the opposition named any such thing when Michael Heseltine and John Prescott were Deputy Prime Minister. When Heseltine was Deputy PM, the office held no responsibilities, so his Labour counterpart shadowed his regular portfolio. When Prescott was Deputy PM, successive leaders of the opposition appointed his counterparts as either "Shadow Secretary of State for the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister" or Shadow Secretary for the substantive portfolio, e.g., "Shadow Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions". I have not finished looking at the Kinnock years, but at least from 1983–1988, there was no Shadow Deputy Prime Minister.

So we can go back about thirty years, and the only person who carried anything like the title was Jack Straw, who as Shadow Justice Secretary was responsible for Clegg's portfolio of political and constitutional reform and therefore called "Acting Shadow Deputy Prime Minister" on the official Shadow Cabinet lists produced by Harriet Harman as Leader of the Opposition. To me it is clear, as Deputy Labour Leader, she wanted the post of "Shadow Deputy Prime Minister", which is why she called Straw "acting" SDPM. In any event, when the new Official Shadow Cabinet list came out in 2010, Miliband did not retain the title. Responsibility for shadowing Clegg was divided: Harman shadows him on cross-government issues, and Sadiq Khan (the Shadow Justice Secretary) and his team shadow him on political and constitutional reform. Thus, it makes sense for Miliband not to have named a Shadow Deputy PM since the duties were divided. It also makes sense for Harman, who was upset she didn't get "Deputy Prime Minister" after her election as Deputy Leader, to want to describe her responsibilities that way. Ultimately, though, what matters is not what Harman calls herself, whatever her motives, nor how the media choose to sum up her responsibilities.

What matters is that we reflect her actual official titles. We have two authoritative sources, ones that come from the man responsible for handing out official titles for the Opposition, and neither says she is Shadow Deputy Prime Minister. Other sources, no matter how numerous, do not trump the best evidence of what her true titles are. -Rrius (talk) 22:02, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone can send a letter to any organisation. I have sent letters to Buckingham Palace! You should produce the letter in full with your real name!147.188.236.102 (talk) 14:44, 21 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thats not helpful or informative - as the user is long term and trusted we assume good faith and there is no need at all to post anything with anyones real name on. Off2riorob (talk) 14:55, 21 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I can see no argument that HH is not deputy PM, am I missing something? Martin Hogbin (talk) 18:29, 21 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]