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​ Archives by topic: Massacre-battle discussions​

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Parking this here until I work out where to put it:

"Some of the fighters alleged that they had shot women only because some male villagers had dressed as women. Yehoshua Gorodentchik of the Irgun said the fighters had, "found men dressed as women and therefore they began to shoot at women who did not hasten to go down to the place designated for gathering the prisoners."^[1] Yair Tsaban was one of several youths who joined the burial team on April 12:

"What we saw were [dead] women, young children, and old men. What shocked us was at least two or three cases of old men dressed in women's clothes. I remember entering the living room of a certain house. In the far corner was a small woman with her back towards the door, sitting dead. When we reached the body we saw an old man with a beard. My conclusion was that what happened in the village so terrorized these old men that they knew being old men would not save them. They hoped that if they were seen as old women that would save them."^[2]"

Yeshurun Shiff, an adjutant to David Shaltiel, district commander of the Haganah in Jerusalem, was in Deir Yassin on April 9 and April 12. He wrote: "[The attackers chose] to kill anybody they found alive as though every living thing in the village was the enemy and they could only think 'kill them all.'... It was a lovely spring day, the almond trees were in bloom, the flowers were out and everywhere there was the stench of the dead, the thick smell of blood, and the terrible odor of the corpses burning in the quarry."^[3]

All of you should be proud of what you have accomplished with this article, I'm sure it wasn't easy. One thing, I change "invasion" to "assault" in 2nd sentence of lede; "invasion" to me seems more apt to large strategic actions. LoveUxoxo (talk) 14:15, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Totally agree. The high quality is truly remarkable, especially considering the controversial nature of the topic. I'm not aware of any article in the I-P arena with a quality on par with this article. --Frederico1234 (talk) 14:32, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm currently going through the article to check the text-source relationships, and make sure the sources are good and available, in case anyone wonders what I'm doing. I'll tidy up any writing that needs it while I'm there. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 06:57, 15 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly prefer the opening sentence of any article to start "[subject] is/was..."; so I changed the lede to read:

The Deir Yassin massacre was an attack by around 120 fighters from the Irgun and Lehi Zionist paramilitary groups on Deir Yassin, a Palestinian-Arab village near Jerusalem of roughly 600 people, on April 9, 1948

Slim changed it back to:

The Deir Yassin massacre took place on April 9, 1948, when around 120 fighters from the Irgun and Lehi Zionist paramilitary groups attacked Deir Yassin near Jerusalem, a Palestinian-Arab village of roughly 600 people.

Anybody else have a preference between the two?

Also, this article makes a lot of use of em dashes, WP:MOS describes them as "...a sharp break in the flow of a sentence—sharper than is provided by a colon or a semicolon." That is why I don't like their use in the article, as I find them more abrupt than necessary and interrupting to the narrative flow when reading. So for the sentence:

Around 107 villagers were killed during and after the battle for the village, including women and children—some were shot, while others died when hand grenades were thrown into their homes.

The reader gets to "women and children" and there is a STOP/START. This is what I much prefer:

Around 107 villagers were killed during and after the battle for the village, including women and children, some of whom were shot, while others died when hand grenades were thrown into their homes.

I'd prefer most of those instances of em dashes in the article to be changed as above. Thoughts?

Regardless, I still like the prose and organization of the article very much. Cheers! LoveUxoxo (talk) 19:56, 15 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I felt the new first sentence didn't flow so well, Love, in part because "when?" is a vital issue, but it came at the end of the sentence. I'm a fan of "time, manner, place." I also like the break in the second, because it seems a bit breathless without it.

Someone suggested trying to get this to FA status, so I'm going to work on it a bit to try to do that. That doesn't necessarily mean submitting it, but at least get it in shape so it could be submitted. So I'm currently reading all the sources to make sure they're reliable, and also to make sure that we say what they say. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 20:15, 15 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would say the first suggestion, The Deir Yassin massacre was an attack by ... etc., is not altogether accurate since the attack was distinct from the killings that took place afterwards. I would stick to Slim's version there. I think I also prefer Slim's version of the other sentence. Gatoclass (talk) 07:23, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Heh, as time goes on I'm finding that my opinions of what constitutes preferable style isn't shared by most people :P LoveUxoxo (talk) 08:32, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well if it's any consolation, I prefer the feel of the first sentence you proposed :) It's just the accuracy that's an issue. Gatoclass (talk) 08:48, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]