Talk:Indie rock

Encyclopedic

I know talk pages tend toward the technical rather than philosophical, and what I'm about to write may seem ambiguous, but does this page constitute a break down in authority, so to speak? Depending on so many disparate sources, and seemingly disallowing no source that is even plausibly journalistic, has produced a busy, incoherent mess of an entry.

I'm not trying to be regressive, but isn't accuracy, authority, concision and clarity what elevates and encyclopedia above a fan created wiki? This page is inaccurate, dodgy, rambling and an utter bramble of underqualified opinions and outright conjecture.

Well, good night. 2601:1C1:4202:7D50:FDC0:2213:F4D6:A596 (talk) 06:41, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I went through a few months ago to fix exactly that. There has been some other major additions since, but the main basis of my edits, at least, were to cut it down to only the discussion of the main movements and subgenres and the most influential and commercially visible moments, as well as removing all info accredited to unreliable sources or info that isn't verifiably from the sources cited. What specific parts do you see as a problem now? Because there is far, far less rambling than there was only back in June, and as far as I can tell everything is still cited directly how it is described in reliable sources. Issan Sumisu (talk) 09:14, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: Digital Cultures

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 18 January 2024 and 28 April 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): AvaBedoya (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Dsantiago19.

— Assignment last updated by RoccNRoll (talk) 00:39, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Over-reaching claims about Dunedin sound

It seems like a big fan of the Dunedin sound is responsible for a large part of this article, and the unsupported assertions that Indie is a genre and that it originated in Dunedin. These assertions are contradictory to the other correct portions of the text that point out that Indie comprises a wide variety of rock subgenres. I would propose that most of the Dunedin material and the assertions that Indie is a genre should be extracted. 74.12.77.238 (talk) 05:29, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The body does not say that indie "originated in Dunedin", it says the Dunedin sound influenced indie rock. That paragraph has become rather bloated since it was first inserted, but this is not unsupported, it is cited to Trans-Global Punk Scenes The Punk Reader Volume 2', which states:

Dunedin, the second-largest city in the South Island after Christchurch, known for its geographical isolation, Scottish heritage and Gothic architecture, 'in a very good way' (Chapman 2016: 13), would become famous for the 'Dunedin Sound'. The term 'refers loosely to the output of a number of acts affiliated with the Flying Nun label during the 1980s, whose legacy is celebrated among indie rock circles internationally' (Wilson and Holland 2018: 69). The Dunedin Sound produced bands such as the Chills and the Clean and many others emerged due to 'much intermingling of artists, with group members often moving from one group to another or playing for several groups at one time' (McLeay 1994: 38). While the Dunedin Sound was predominately associated with indie rock, Aotearoa has since produced diverse bands, such as the Datsuns, Suburban Reptiles and Die! Die! Die! that encompass a mix of genres, such as rock, punk and post-punk respectively.

The assertion that indie rock is a genre has been present on this article for over a decade. If you look back on this talk page, you can see when this has been discussed, and every time the consensus has been that it is a genre. There is a seperate independent music article. Issan Sumisu (talk) 11:10, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
i thik so 196.191.219.182 (talk) 16:42, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As an additional commentator here, I would like to support the statement above. Someone has clearly tried to exaggerate the role of Dunedin in the history of indie rock. Saying the genre 'originated there' is just a very exaggerated, if not factually incorrect, statement. The writer below says that the body does "not" say that indie "originated in Dunedin", but the start of the Wiki page does indeed say this. I came to this Wikipedia page because I read on a website somewhere that indie rock "originated in Dunedin". Clearly someone read the Wiki and is perpetuating this myth. The point is not to be mean to Dunedin, for it can surely be included in the story of indie rock, but the genre simply did not start there. You can even see this on this Wikipedia page farther down when it talks about the origins of the term. This page clearly needs substantial revisions. Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:8C:482:3E10:F45C:B0A:146:C045 20:42, 25 October 2024
Could you direct me to where in the article it says that indie rock started in Dunedin, because all I can find is the lead's "The sound of indie rock has its origins in the New Zealand Dunedin sound" and the Origins section's "Dunedin produced the independent record label Flying Nun Records, whose artists defined the Dunedin sound, which would be particularly influential on the development of indie rock's sound.", both of which are just saying it influenced the sound using different wordings. Are these the parts you're referring to? Because, if these quote can be mistaken to mean what you're saying, then I supposed they should be reworded, as they definitely are not supposed to mean that. Issan Sumisu (talk) 21:53, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah the Dunedin sound was way too overstated, before I added that the origins lie in the UK scene with Buzzcocks and Desperate Bicycles, it was wrongly attributing that indie rock began in Dunedin. Aradicus77 (talk) 15:49, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

60s Garage Rock as a stylistic origin

I think that Garage Rock should be added as a stylistic origin, bands like The Stooges were a major influence on Indie Rock bands like: Sonic Youth, Pixies, Arctic Monkeys, and The Strokes. 2A02:14F:178:75E4:0:0:8539:9B1B (talk) 16:30, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

For that to be included, you need to provide a source which passes WP:RS and states something along the lines of "indie rock was influenced by garage rock" (rather than a particular indie band who citing a garage rock band as an influence). Currently, there's nothing in this article mentioning garage rock until the 2000s garage rock revival. However, I think it was worth noting the article already discusses the influence of punk (particularly post-punk) on indie, with punk already being derived from garage rock. Issan Sumisu (talk) 17:21, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Something like this?
"Garage Rock is a genre of rock music characterised by its raw, energetic sound, often emulating the feel of amateur bands playing in a garage setting. It is emerging in the mid-1960s and incorporates rock ‘n’ roll, blues, and punk elements, often using simple chords and lyrics. The genre’s lo-fi production and rebellious attitude have made it a seminal influence in developing various rock subgenres, including punk and indie rock."
(https://www.howardbasshead.com/what-is-garage-rock/) 2A00:A041:E0D0:7800:E9F6:4D3D:5297:6EC7 (talk) 19:37, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That doesn't pass WP:RS, as it's a personal blog. Issan Sumisu (talk) 20:59, 19 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Garage rock and psychedelia are already named as influences on here, just not the Stooges in particular, but there's already sources linking Stooges, Modern Lovers and Patti Smith as proto-punk influences on indie bands.
Here's for Modern Lovers: https://www.rs500albums.com/300-251/288
Here's allmusic's bio for the Stooges mentioning their influence on indie rock, you could also just highlight how they influenced Sonic Youth and Dinosaur Jr. for example on top too: https://www.allmusic.com/artist/the-stooges-mn0000562304
Rhino also mentions Stooges as influential to indie here: https://www.rhino.com/article/the-stooges
While the book Horses 33/1/2 mentions indie rock being influenced by Patti Smith, think most of the CBGB scene influenced indie rock as Television is a strong point of reference there also. Aradicus77 (talk) 15:14, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Background

Yeah I added a lot more info on the independent record landscape since it was integral to the development of indie rock. It needs to be mentioned what the independent music landscape looked like prior to the late 70s as this is what informed most of what labels like Rough Trade and bands like the Buzzcocks and Desperate Bicycles went on to do, they were trying to undermine the amount of influence the majors had on the wider music industry, which was a strong topic at the time, when this battle subsided with the rise of indie rock / pop genres being commercially viable, it marked a change in public perception on "independent music".

I could add more info on proto-punk acts and CBGB bands who influenced indie rock, but at the same time, feel it's valid if the emphasis on early independent music is shortened. Aradicus77 (talk) 15:16, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure why the Buzzcocks Spiral Scratch and Desperate Bicycles were split into background though, that was "indie rock" at the time. Indie rock first meant bands like Television Personalities, 'O' Level, Swell Maps, Desperate Bicycles who were doing stuff on their own, when Rough Trade assembled the Cartel and started helping these small bands to get distributed and get wider attention, that was pretty much the origins of indie rock. The stuff that happened prior to that point like Television and other bands could be considered precursors and influences. But I wouldn't count that Early UK DIY wave as precursors. Aradicus77 (talk) 15:19, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Update: I moved a lot of that information to independent music and just made it brief to highlight that it was hard for indie labels to take off prior to the late 70s. Aradicus77 (talk) 15:50, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
My reason for moving stuff like the Buzzcocks into background was because the sources cited there generally refer to it simply as "indie music" and specifically discuss their independence as to why they fit that category, rather musical characteristics. Because of this, my reading is that they are using discussing what Wikipedia already discusses in indie music scene, independent music and independent record label. The existence of this many articles meaning it would be Wikipedia:Out of scope to have that too be the main focus here. I drew the line based on Matthew Bannister's take in White Boys, White Noise: Masculinities and 1980s Indie Guitar Rock, that indie rock as a musically characterised style had its first wave with R.E.M. and the Smiths. But I'm not saying that's a definitive beginning or anything, if there's sources that discuss it musically earlier then include that, it just seemed the most logical to me. Issan Sumisu (talk) 16:33, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah your edit made sense. It definitely seems to be that the UK DIY scene was more of a precursor, but an argument could be made it was the start given it led to the formation of the independent music charts in 1980. But as you said, that's "indie music" not "indie rock". I'm not sure if there's any specific sources that claim when the term was coined, but whenever that was would be the most logical cutoff. But it's fine as it is right now. Aradicus77 (talk) 22:08, 24 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
allikas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Indie_rock