The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Karol Stanisław Radziwiłł (1734–1790). I've decided to redirect the article as an ATD to her husband's article to preserve content in the case that superior sourcing is uncovered. Please do not undo this redirect if you are unhappy with this result. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:47, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Teresa Karolina Rzewuska (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Simply does not meet either WP:NBIO or WP:GNG. She gets some brief mentions, and was awarded a minor award, but there is simply not enough as notability is WP:NOTINHERITED. Should be redirected to either Rzewuski family or husband, [[Karol Stanisław Radziwiłł (1734–1790) ]], but that is being reverted. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 12:59, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You called the Order of the Starry Cross a minor award? Herzog von Teschen (talk) 13:08, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete and add her name to the list at Order of the Starry Cross, once it has been verified. If that cross is believed to be honorable, even though it is awarded only to "high-born ladies" (princesses, countesses, and other high nobility) as explained here, then she should be included in the list. I have asked another editor who is a librarian to help verify that information because I do not have access to the cited book but then I haven't checked WP:TWL, yet. Verification is important for adding her to the list, not for keeping the stub. She lacks notability for inclusion as a standalone because it fails notability beyond entitlement as one of the "high-born ladies". I would be ok with draftifying what we have now to allow editors to properly follow WP:MOS and satisfy WP:GNG, but that requires expanding the bio with verifiable material cited to RS, as I explained to the article creator. Atsme 💬 📧 14:23, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • She has a biographical entry written by Jerzy Dunin Borkowski. I do not understand why article about English lady could exists and similar article about member of very important family and mentioned in numerous academic sources could not. Herzog von Teschen (talk) 14:34, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:14, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete I see no personal relevance in her article. An individual should only have an article if they have personal relevance. Her article only contains geneaological information, nothing about her as an individual: no acts of importance, only names and dates. Regardless of nationality, no person (except royalty) should have an article in wikipedia just because they belong to a certain family. If the family is important it is enough to have an article about the family, not each individual from it. The Order, it seems, were given to many people just because of their social status and not because they had performed any particular act themselwes. Herzog von Teschen compare it to Anne of Gloucester, but she has personal relevance because she inherited a title in her own right. --Aciram (talk) 15:13, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could you tell me how anybody could inherited any title in Poland in the 18th century? There is the same level of nobility. Herzog von Teschen (talk) 15:21, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    It's the same level of nobility, but we care about notability--the sources at Anne of Gloucester are far more comprehensive than what has been provided so far for Teresa Rzewuska, and that is the decisive difference. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 16:12, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  You did not answer for the first question, it's crucial. Herzog von Teschen (talk) 17:05, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  If you think it's critical, you understand very little about Wikipedia's notability guidelines. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:10, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  If you couldn't read in Polish and no nothing about Polish aristocracy, how could you judge about this article? Herzog von Teschen (talk) 17:21, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  WP:N. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:24, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  She passed the criteria WP:N. She had a biographical entry and a chapter in academic book devoted to her divorce, among other sources. Herzog von Teschen (talk) 17:28, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Available coverage in independent RS is limited to mere mentions--Herzog von Taschen has asserted that additional coverage exists but has not made it available to anyone else in this discussion. Based on the available coverage, redirect is appropriate, but I'm willing to take a look at the additional sources if their content can be provided. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 15:54, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment To be fair, we need help from Polish editors. Herzog von Teschen you should expand the article what she did. Taung Tan (talk) 16:01, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  The issue is not a lack of ability to read Polish, but that at this point HvT is basing their argument on offline sources and has not provided quotes of the relevant content. The online Polish sources have only trivial coverge of Teresa, instead focusing on other, more-notable members of her family._signed, Rosguill ^talk 16:05, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  There are a whole academic article dedicated to her, besides other sources, and you called this trivial coverge? I suppose you had read this article before wrote this comment. Did you? Herzog von Teschen (talk) 17:05, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I read through the two accessible sources: [1], which is about Ludwika Maria Chodkiewicz née Rzewuski, and [2], which is about Teresa's father, Waclaw. There appear to be two sentences about Teresa across those entire articles. Yes, that is trivial. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:10, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Of course you didn't read Rozwody w rodzinach magnackich w Polsce XVI-XVIII wieku, where is a whole chapter dedicated to her divorce. You read in Polish or only use translator? Herzog von Teschen (talk) 17:21, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I have repeatedly asked you to provide quotes from that source. You have yet to do so. I can read a little Polish and have been relying on a mix of straight reading and machine translation to verify my understandings. I cannot read a book that I do not have access to, regardless of language_signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:23, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  This is not WP:GA discussion. There are independent sources, she had a biographical entry, she had an entire chapter dedicated to her in a peer-reviewed academic book. Herzog von Teschen (talk) 17:28, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  So provide sourcing. Saying the sky is blue isn't enough, we need evidence. Oaktree b (talk) 18:20, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  The biographical entry is already cited in the article (Jerzy Sewer Dunin Borkowski: Panie polskie przy dworze rakuskim. Lwów 1891, p. 13). A peer-reviewed academic books is mentioned in the "Further Readings" section. This is a normal stub-class article. You have evidence that sky is blue and you are saying "No, it's not". Herzog von Teschen (talk) 18:30, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  So provide quotes from the source, as you've been repeatedly asked to, that demonstrate why this person is notable. Simply being mentioned in a peer-reviewed academic book is not enough. A key component of Wikipedia is WP:Verifiability, how does one verify the information you're claiming exists? Hey man im josh (talk) 18:40, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  FWIW, a text from 1891 is going to be considered a primary source in this context, so I wouldn't focus on that. That having been said, if you can provide relevant excerpts from Rozwody, I and others will likely change our !votes. But given the misconceptions about notability you've expressed above in this discussion, I'm not inclined to assume the admissibility of evidence that I can't review. I'll also note that if the relevant chapter is focused on Teresa's divorce, there is a nonzero chance that this coverage really belongs at Karol Stanisław Radziwiłł (1734–1790) and may not establish Teresa's notability. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 18:43, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  There is no historian who could treated this particular publications as primary sources. This is a secondary sources. The date of publications has nothing to do about being primary or secondary sources. Herzog von Teschen (talk) 18:55, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Please see Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (history), particularly the sections WP:HISTRH and WP:HISTRW. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 19:00, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Please read eg. [3]. As you don't understand the difference between primary and secondary sources, it's really hard for me to discuss about historical topic. Herzog von Teschen (talk) 19:08, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As she was the wife of Karol Stanisław Radziwiłł (1734–1790) she may be Grand Duchess of Lithuania. Why not ? Taung Tan (talk) 16:14, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete: I agree with Aciram's comment, this person's notability has not been established. The Order of the Starry Cross award is not enough. We don't create articles for every child of every person that is notable because notability is not inherited. While HvT repeatedly advocates for the notability of this person, they've yet to provide anything that backs it up. Hey man im josh (talk) 18:34, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete, until such time as Herzog von Teschen feels that they can supply the requested source quotes that demonstrate significant coverage. Should be easy, considering they have an entire chapter ready to go. When that happens, I'll reassess.~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 23:26, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep There is a biography here in Polish on page 130 (139 of the pdf): https://crispa.uw.edu.pl/object/files/415423/display/Default. Noel S McFerran (talk) 02:14, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work! Many thanks, Mcferran. Could you find sources for Ludwika Maria Rzewuska and Anna Lubomirska (died 1763). Regards. Taung Tan (talk) 07:34, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep (changed to no vote) finally I voted 'keep' as per the source above https://crispa.uw.edu.pl/object/files/415423/display/Default, found by the liberian Mcferran, she was emphasizing documented in reliable sources by historians because of her historical significance or interest. Taung Tan (talk) 07:30, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete or preferrable soft delete by redirecting to her husband Karol Stanisław Radziwiłł (1734–1790). Good find by Mcferran but that biography is saying almost nothing of her: date of birth, date of death, parents, and husband (date and place of marriage). 90% of it is listing the noble titles/positions of her father/husband. There is no claim of significance to her life, she was born, she got married, that's it. That's not enough IMHO. Ping User:Taung Tan who voted based on that source. Note: I read Polish - with all due respect, I don't think either of you, Tan and Mcferran, does, and being able to read such sources can be important to determin whether WP:SIGCOV is met or not. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:12, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Piotrus, Thanks, Has she never held any noble title during her lifetime? Taung Tan (talk) 06:32, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Taung Tan Not that I am aware of, although in Polish noble society of that time she would be addressed by honorifics related to the positions of her father and husband (does marrying a prince make you a princess?). She might even have been called a princess, but such titles were not legally recognized in Poland (although, again, they were polite honorifics). Anyway, the only special achievement she had was receving the Order of the Starry Cross, and we don't know what for (probaby as a favor to her husband). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:58, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep She received the most important award that woman could be awarded in the Habsburg monarchy in the 18th century. She had a biographical entry due to this fact, not due to her husband or father. Also her divorce was described by scholars. Herzog von Teschen (talk) 14:27, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I found her portrait and added it to the article. I know she may be something important during the days of monarchy of Poland. If she was a Burmese noble lady, I'm pretty sure I can save her article on Wikipedia. I'll find sources both offline and online as much as I can. I've kept countless Burmese royalty articles. Unfortunately for this, I can't read Polish, and it's hard to find sources. I really don't want to lose this article. Taung Tan (talk) 15:19, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Royalty and nobility are not the same thing. All royalty are notable, but nobility are not necessarily notable, they must have personal notability just like everyone else. --Aciram (talk) 12:50, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment It should be noted that enWikipedia has a great number of articles of Polish noblemen/women which contains nothing more than their genealogy and are lack as much notability as this one. Perhaps someone should look at the category of Polish nobility, and there would be numerous articles like this.--Aciram (talk) 12:50, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.