The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Cliffside Park, New Jersey. Spartaz ^Humbug! 16:17, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mayor of Cliffside Park, New Jersey (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Does not meet WP:LISTN guidelines for notability. Only two members of this list were deemed notable enough to have articles and lacks reliable sources for this incomplete list. I oppose any type of merge since reliable sources do not exist. Rusf10 (talk) 02:57, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Rusf10 (talk) 02:57, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. Rusf10 (talk) 02:57, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New Jersey-related deletion discussions. Rusf10 (talk) 02:57, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Too small either way. Does not need standalone page. Mohanabhil (talk) 15:26, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect (and, if relevant, merge) to Cliffside Park, New_Jersey#Local_government, per WP:ATD. Several pages link to this one; deleting the page would break the links for no good reason. pburka (talk) 15:34, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • ...or keep, now that there's some substantial content, thanks to User:Djflem. No preference between merge and keep. pburka (talk) 19:37, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. There are only three pages in articlespace that are actually linking to this list, and it's not a critical or essential link in any of them — two of them are, unsurprisingly, the two people listed here who actually have established notability for other reasons, because one was also a state legislator and the other was an NBA player, but just wait for the punchline that makes one of them even more problematic — while the third is just the "deaths in April 2015" entry for one of those same two people. So none of them have a contextual need for this link to exist — it can easily just be unlinked in all three uses.
  Now, to be fair, strictly speaking the value of a list of mayors does not necessarily vest in how many of them do or don't already have articles to link to — it's more important that a list of mayors of a town or city be complete than it is that the list comprise exclusively blue links. So the real problem here isn't the number of red links — it's the fact that the list is incomplete. The first mayor took office in 1901, with no indication of when his term ended. He's then followed by the state legislator, who — time for the punchline — is listed as an unsuccessful three-time candidate for mayor in the 1920s with no indication given in either the list or his biographical article that he ever actually won a mayoral election or served as the actual mayor at all. Then we skip to the 1950s for a person who served as mayor in 1950 and 1951, and then we skip one or more other mayors to land in 1958 — and then the list is complete from then on, but even then only because one of the next two mayors served for 50 years before dying in office literally just a few years ago.
  So what we have here is an incomplete list, with just two notable people in it — and one of those two notable people isn't reliably sourced as belonging in it at all, while the other one is notable far more for other reasons separate from the mayoralty than he is as a mayor per se. Gerald Calabrese can certainly be mentioned in Cliffside Park's city article — and indeed he already is — but this is mostly unsourced information about mostly non-notable people, along with one additional person who may not even properly belong here at all, which is not a recipe for a list that we need to retain either by keeping or merging. Bearcat (talk) 16:19, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Article's problems as described above are surmountable since deletion is not cleanup.Djflem (talk) 20:20, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Satifies Wikipedia:SALAT, Wikipedia:LISTPURP, Wikipedia:CSC, Wikipedia:LISTCRITERIA, doesn't contravene Wikipedia:NOTDIR, (and because Wikipedia:Other stuff exists).Djflem (talk) 09:48, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment I'm very dubious of the nominator's claim that "reliable sources do not exist." Historical governance in the Northeastern States is famously well studied and documented. Surely paper sources could be found. pburka (talk) 14:26, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

WP:MUSTBESOURCES. If sources surely exist, where are they?--Rusf10 (talk) 16:53, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You can accurately say that your search for sources was not fruitful. You might even be able to claim all sources are simply routine coverage. But the idea that no reliable sources exist for 130 years of mayoral elections in a New Jersey city is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence. pburka (talk) 20:38, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So attack me rather than prove notability? Giving me links to Google searches is not helpful, see WP:GOOGLEHITS. Your three actual sources don't establish notability. The first is nothing more than a list of alumni of New York University, it doesn't even provide biographical information, we're not a directory. Second source is a local history book written about the town, it may satisfy WP:V, but not notability, I probably can find a book like that for every small town in America. Third source also appears to be a directory, just like the first one.--Rusf10 (talk) 23:00, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think you've got a reasonable claim that the topic fails notability... thus my !vote above. However, claiming that it's also unverifiable is a reach. Clearly reliable sources exist which document the existence of historical mayors of New Jersey towns. pburka (talk) 23:35, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Pburka: May I suggest you consider Wikipedia:LISTN, a nom rationale which is dubious, since it clearly states (bold mine): One accepted reason why a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources and There is no present consensus for how to assess the notability ... or what other criteria may justify the notability of stand-alone lists...Lists that fulfill recognized informational, navigation, or development purposes often are kept regardless of any demonstrated notability...Also, as stated above by another editor:the value of a list of mayors does not necessarily vest in how many of them do or don't already have articles to link to . In other words, a list does not require that its entries be independently notable or "blue-linked" (a nom rationale that appears to be flawed). With such a finite list, as mentioned, it should be complete, which it now is. Given Category:Lists of mayors of places in the United States it is clear that the community consensus is is to keep this type of list.Djflem (talk) 07:14, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Wikipedia:HEY: concerns have been addressed & article has been significantly improved since it was nominated for deletion: version 11 May and version 22 May

• Delete and move content to Cliffside Park, New Jersey --Cornellier (talk) 00:05, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Are you saying merge? Djflem (talk) 06:58, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge The article's an oversourced mess at the moment. I don't think the topic itself is notable, but the information in the article has been improved and would be a valid list... I think the best solution here would be to clean this up into a table and move it over to the Cliffside Park article. What information there is on each mayor can be included in the article somehow. A mayor of the town isn't really all that notable, but there's no reason to delete this information now (it was expanded from when it was nominated.) SportingFlyer T·C 06:41, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. No policy-grounded reason for deletion of this content has been advanced. The only legitimate question is whether the content should be included in the article on the municipality or spun out into a discrete list. That is noy an appropriate discussion for this forum. I also echo the concerns about the nominator's absurd claims that no reliable sources exist as to the mayoralty of a New Jersey city established in 1895, since both municipal records and newspapers from the entire time period exist. Statements like this, and the nominator's doubling down on them, indicate the nominator lacks the skills required to research and present deletion proposals. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. Fight for freedom, stand with Hong Kong! (talk) 21:15, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Typical WP:IDONTLIKETHENOMINATOR WP:PERSONALATTACK. Even, though more sources have been discovered it only provides WP:V, not notability. The sources are nothing more than a collection of obituaries and the local town history book. If you search hard enough these sources can be found for almost any town in American and do not create notability.--Rusf10 (talk) 01:41, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.