The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎. The most sufficient discussion happened in the first week, with no agreement as to what to do. After multiple relists, that remains the case. No prejudice against renomination. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 10:26, 1 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Martin Oderin

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Martin Oderin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Non-notable nobleman with a biography that hundreds of Czech medieval lower nobles had. The sources used are only Trivial mentions. FromCzech (talk) 07:20, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Royalty and nobility and Czech Republic. FromCzech (talk) 07:20, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. The nomination is the same and my arguments are similar to those found at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Petr Píšek. To sum up, this was a politically important individual during a politically important time, as stated by the sources. The subject ruled from a notable castle. He was an early patron of what is now a UNESCO World Heritage Site. His portrayal in recent media is not irrelevant. This is a 600 year old figure, and there are undoubtedly undigitized sources or those I missed in my initial search. Mbdfar (talk) 12:27, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm going to repeat myself, but WP:SIGCOV is missing, so I don't even need to write any more reasons. He is from a councilor family, not a noble family. "Politically important" is not in the cited sources. He did not rule from a notable castle, but he just owned rural fort in Ratboř, as [3] says. Among the donors of the Church of St. Barbara were many town's burghers, as the source says, so this does not make him notable either. FromCzech (talk) 13:01, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    That's not quite my understanding. I did not cite this work because I didn't want to incorrectly translate Latin or German, but Borový 1927 mentions the subject several times (see further reading, make sure to search for Latin name conjugations). My understanding is that the subject is much more than a simple church donor as you'd suggest, and that he was an important figure in the early days of St. Barbara's Church. See page 125 for example. I'd welcome your interpretation or translations. Mbdfar (talk) 20:36, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Can anyone please provide significant coverage in IRS when it comes to royalty? It has been a long time since I got familiar with them. ⋆｡˚꒰ঌ Clara A. Djalim ໒꒱˚｡⋆ 13:37, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    For the record, "politically important" comes from the cited source, where it states "Odreinové patřili k nejstarším radním rodům ve městě a svoje postavení si udrželi až do husitských válek". The phrase "councilor family" does not have any meaning. I read this as more akin to a patrician, similar to the cs:starý patriciát. I think my paraphrasing was apt, but please correct me if you still disagree and it can be rewritten in the article. And for what it's worth, the old castle in Ratboř seems notable, certainly notable enough to be a wartime target, and is now dedicated as a cultural monument (also interestingly it was later owned by other notable people such as cs:Bernard Mandelík and cs:Hubert von Czibulka, but I digress)[1] [2].
    That stuff doesn't really matter, but I also disagree that the sources are as trivial as you mention. I think further translation should be done to improve this article, but I do believe the number of times the subject appears in Čelakovský (1916), Vaněk (2011), and Borový (1927), supported by the other sources and context push the subject into notability. Mbdfar (talk) 01:04, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I meant burgher family, if you don't like the term councilor family. Local political importance is not a carrier of notability, if there is no SIGCOV. The fortress in Ratboř was no different from the others in the area, so I don't know how you judge the notability. Its modern history is more remarkable. There were at least 19 such fortresses and castles in the vicinity of Kutná Hora, and due to their medieval origin, all of them are protected as cultural monuments. Because these are defensive structures, they were of course a target of attack during the wars. But even if Oderin owned Prague Castle, it wouldn't be enough on its own page without SIGCOV. The sources are not enough, as evidenced by the form of the page, which is just a collection of small fragments instead of a coherent biography or a description of some notable act he performed. FromCzech (talk) 14:22, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Which is why I said that stuff doesn't really matter. But if you're going to keep bringing it up, I don't think burgher is a good description and the other fortresses are probably notable to. I believe there is enough coverage to satisfy SIGCOV. If you don't want this article to be a collection of small fragments, help me with the translation of the provided sources to improve it. Mbdfar (talk) 16:01, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    It does, however, add context. From my perspective, these facts, along with the lasting coverage over 600 years, indicate that the subject was more than a WP:MILL local politician. Mbdfar (talk) 23:25, 14 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 21:19, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:16, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Allikas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Martin_Oderin
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