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"April 20, 1999" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect April 20, 1999 has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2025 February 18 § April 20, 1999 until a consensus is reached. Nat Gertler (talk) 03:30, 18 February 2025 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 18 February 2025
Add Anne-Marie Hochhalter to the list of fatalities here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre#11:29%E2%80%9311:36_a.m.:_Library_massacre
I'll include this text:
16. Anne-Marie Hochhalter (aged 43), paralyzed by Harris; died on February 16, 2025 due to complications suffered during the shooting
You can change the phrasing if need be. Acoolusername2025 (talk) 20:36, 18 February 2025 (UTC)
- I'm leaning towards including Anne-Marie Hochhalter as an official causality, as in the Attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan article, James Brady who died in similar circumstances decades after the incident is listed as such, but I'll hold off before a consensus is formed amongst the editors. I'll add the news of her passing to the secondary casualties section though. FossilDS (talk) 20:44, 18 February 2025 (UTC)
- Also, the 2006 Amish school girl shooting includes a victim who died in 2024: West Nickel Mines School shooting - Wikipedia
- But as you said, we just got to make sure that she did die due complications from her injuries - and if she did, it should be a clear consensus. She wouldn't fit in secondary causalities because her death was directly caused by the shooting. Even Austin Eubanks - despite being injured - died from an overdose and not his injuries so he's still secondary. One thing is I don't think Greg Barnes saw Sanders get shot.... only one student/witness saw him get shot (Elisha Encinias) ~~ McDonaldsGuy (talk) 07:05, 19 February 2025 (UTC)
- I saw Anne's father's Twitter, and he said that her death is directly related to the injuries she sustained during the attack. So they're going to raise the death toll to 14, or they're not going to consider her death at all. Autor101202 (talk) 21:51, 8 March 2025 (UTC)
Not done: Procedurally closing the edit request template as various editors appear to be involved in the content of this requested edit and a consensus may soon form in one direction or the other. Edit requests are for items which are not disputed at time of request, so removing from the queue. If necessary, once there is a consensus, this or any similar edit request can be re-opened. —Sirdog (talk) 23:27, 1 March 2025 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 20 February 2025 - Anne Marie Notice
Anne Marie Hochhalter who was injured has passed away from health complications, it’s possible the victim count will increase to 14 (excluding perpetrators) but sheriff hasn’t officially declared it a homicide. Verkabeltemaschine (talk) 00:20, 20 February 2025 (UTC)
Not done We are not going to add speculative information of this type into the article. See WP:CRYSTAL. mftp dan oops 17:40, 21 February 2025 (UTC)
- Doesn't appear to be speculation. — EF5 01:10, 22 February 2025 (UTC)
- This is what the article says: "The Adams County coroner, which initially handled Ms. Hochhalter's case, said it had been transferred to the Jefferson County coroner, 'given that her death was likely related to complications of paraplegia associated with the Columbine shooting.' The Jefferson County Coroner's Office said that autopsy results were not yet available." So there is suspicion from a medical official, but without an autopsy, it's still speculation. Sakhadiver (talk) 02:55, 23 February 2025 (UTC)
- The Jefferson County Coroner confirmed today that her death is being considered a homicide, and that her death was caused by the massacre. I think it's clear that she needs to be considered a primary casualty now. 47.45.219.143 (talk) 09:01, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
- This is what the article says: "The Adams County coroner, which initially handled Ms. Hochhalter's case, said it had been transferred to the Jefferson County coroner, 'given that her death was likely related to complications of paraplegia associated with the Columbine shooting.' The Jefferson County Coroner's Office said that autopsy results were not yet available." So there is suspicion from a medical official, but without an autopsy, it's still speculation. Sakhadiver (talk) 02:55, 23 February 2025 (UTC)
- Doesn't appear to be speculation. — EF5 01:10, 22 February 2025 (UTC)
Merge proposal
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Greetings. I propose that this article be merged into the List of school shootings in the United States. I know, this proposal sounds a little silly, but let me explain myself. I don't think there is a need for such big article on our encyclopedia. This school shooting only killed 13 people, which is a pretty low kill count, there are currently dozens of mass shootings happening right now in Ukraine, Sudan, Israel, Gaza which are killing way more people. I haven't seen anyone writing Wikipedia articles about them. Why does columbine mass shooting gets article written about it and others mass shootings dont? This is pretty hypocritical, in my opinion. 81.9.127.73 (talk) 11:53, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
- Plus, i think that having separate articles for each mass shooting is unnecessary, and things just overlap and make it very confusing for users to consume content. Every mass shooting and school shooting can be easily merged into List of school shootings in United States and summarized in few sentences. I hope you guys agree with my idea. 81.9.127.73 (talk) 12:11, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
- Nope. Notability is not another term for body count. This stand-alone event has had a strong and continuing impact on the public conversation. None of that prevents articles about other events, but events within an ongoing war are often best covered in that context. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 15:12, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
- No. While I'm no fan of obsessive accounts of mass killings, I'm not prepared to suggest that we're so inured to mass killings (especially in schools) that we should just tally them in a list and go on: oh well, another one... Acroterion (talk) 15:20, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
- That's a No from me too. This was an event with far-reaching and worldwide implication.s Just take a look at the size of this article and also at the many other WP articles about associated events or media: Columbine (book), Bowling for Columbine, Columbine Memorial. Towering over all the other articles about Columbine in terms of telling us all how much influence this event had there is Columbine effect, a scary and sad tour through all the copycats and emulators of this awful sad tragedy. - Shearonink (talk) 15:55, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
- Strong oppose - While only 13 were killed, this event marked the start of numerous horrific shootings around the world, many inspired by the event. Deaths are not a direct metric to notability. "which is a pretty low kill count" is an insensitive thing to say, but I understand the point you were trying to get across. — EF5 16:00, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
- Oh god, I missed that. One could possibly say assassination articles have a low kill count too... Anyway, if there are dozens of mass shootings/mass killings elsewhere in the world, and they have gotten coverage in reliable sources then maybe articles could be written about those events as well. We're all volunteers around here so someone would have to just up & write these other mass death articles... - Shearonink (talk) 16:22, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
- You're right, it does sound silly. We're not going to do this. Cambial — foliar❧ 16:57, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
- Strong oppose - Probably THE MOST covered shooting in history by various forms of media (potentially tied with Sandy Hook/Uvalde/Virginia Tech). Could be stated as a turning point in mass shootings. Wildfireupdateman :) (talk) 18:17, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
- Extreme Oppose There's multiple things wrong with this proposal. The first being the fact it sounds like you're undermining the death toll from this shooting, just like what EF5 said, the amount of deaths doesn't dictate how notable an article is, you can have an event killing 1,000+ people and it'll forgotten with time. But another reason why this article should stay standalone is how much this event impacted the U.S. culture and how many other shooters are inspired by the Columbine shooters. The issue of gun violence in school is still being talked about to this day and this event is the caused of that. Hoguert (talk) 18:37, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
- This is bait, right? jolielover♥talk 18:46, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
- I really doubt this is a genuine request, This is probably a troll request, or from someone who was irritated that an article on a less notable killing got deleted. But it does play into tensions in this topic area, so my thoughts: Crimes get written about in secondary sources typically when they are considered unusual or interesting. There are some mass killings that killed dozens of people where there was little media interest because it happened in a country with a media ecosystem that did not cover them, for various reasons. In active war zones, or countries without a strong state, crimes where a lot of people die will be common and usually not covered in depth or for a length of time.
- We don't have articles for the sake of having articles because something was tragic or killed more people, we have them if someone has written about them and so we have things to say. We write in proportion to how much has been written about them. PARAKANYAA (talk) 18:59, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
Indirect kills
Hello everyone again. First off, to clarify things, im going to say that i was the IP address that started a merge proposal 2 days ago. I created this new account yesterday!
My new proposal is to add indirect kills by the school shooters in the deaths section. Six months after the columbine shooting, mother of Anne Marie Hochhalter (paralyzed victim) shot and killed herself with a gun in a pawn shop. She left a note prior to her suicide. It is obvious that the reason she killed herself was because she was upset by her daughter's condition. If this school shooting didnt happen, Anne wouldnt be paralyzed and her mother would have no reason to commit suicide, basically she would still be alive right now.
The deaths section will look like this: 15 killed (including both perpetrators) 1 indirect kills (killed due to suicide caused by the massacre)
I hope you guys like my idea!! WhoIsCentreLeft (talk) 17:20, 5 March 2025 (UTC)
- Opposed. To do so could mean that we'd have to add every person ever impacted by copy cats, or other school shooters that came after. Well intentioned, poorly thought out.Northern-Virginia-Photographer (talk) 19:15, 7 March 2025 (UTC)
- Soft agree. It would need to be clarified what exactly designates a secondary victim. There's already been confusion as to what Anne Marie would be considered, due to her death occurring so late. I personally think that because her cause of death is homicide, she is pretty clearly a 14th victim. As someone pointed out, you could technically consider all victims of the Columbine effect secondary casualties, so we would have to narrow that scope.
- That said, it would not hurt to add a list for survivors of the massacre who lost their lives because because they survived the Columbine Massacre, but not die from homicide. In other words, folks who did not sustain fatal injuries but the trauma of the event took their lives. I know there has been discussion in this thread if a strong enough case to justify adding three deaths to the article, but given the 3 deceased's ties to the massacre, I think it warrants a conversation. Carla June Hochhalter is joined by Austin Eubanks and Gregory Barnes in that category. Carla was the mother of a now-casualty, Austin Eubanks was shot in the library and got addicted to medication given to him after the massacre, and Gregory Barnes witnessed the death of Coach Sanders. These secondary deaths were not just random Littleton residents, they all had significant ties to the massacre and thusly should be recognized as being strongly related deaths, if not victims themselves. 47.45.219.143 (talk) 09:23, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
Columbine, Colorado?
The columbine massacre happened in Littleton Colorado I’ve lived here for 23 years and have never heard that Columbine was in Columbine Colorado didn’t even know there was a Columbine,Colorado I lived down the street from it in Littleton Colorado also have skated at that skate park there behind the school from when I was 15 years old and it’s in Littleton Colorado. My kids had questions and I was trying to answer them, but the kids were even confused because they were born here and have been to Columbine high school for trick-or-treating and to hang out at the skate park in Littleton. Also, Columbine is not a K through 12 school. It is a high school. The facts on this Wikipedia are completely incorrect and there’s no way to edit anything. 2600:100E:B0CC:BEA7:25E4:442:48DE:7AC7 (talk) 15:42, 7 March 2025 (UTC)
- Hello, friend. Thanks for using Wikipedia! It does appear that you have three misconceptions about the article.
- 1) Littleton vs Columbine
- Columbine, Colorado is a census-designated place within both Jefferson and Arapahoe counties, and the High School is inside it's boundaries. Even though the High School is inside Littleton, Columbine, being a smaller, more precise measure, was chosen for the article. If my memory serves me, this is discussed in the archives of this talk page. That might help you understand more of why this decision was made.
- 2) K-12
- You're absolutley correct, Columbine is a grades 9-12 high school, we can see this reflected more accurately on the High School's Wikipedia page itself. I believe this is based on a misreading of the following line in the article: "The Columbine massacre was the deadliest mass shooting at a K-12 school in U.S. history until December 2012.". So, while this line references K-12 grades, it isn't saying that Columbine is a K-12 School.
- 3) No way to edit anything
- This falls under a distinct Wikipedia policy; WP:SEMIGUIDE. Long story short, this article has been either vandalized or had enough anonymous edits of a poor quality that the Wikipedia community made a collective decision that unregistered users, and users with less than 10 edits, could no longer edit it. If you're willing, becoming a Wikipedia editor is always a great way to share more information about your community and interests!
- I hope this has cleared up any misconceptions you had about the article; on a personal level, thank you for talking to your kids about school shootings. It's something that my parents didn't really have the words to talk about when I was younger. Northern-Virginia-Photographer (talk) 16:21, 7 March 2025 (UTC)
- I aint reading all that WhoIsCentreLeft (talk) 19:11, 7 March 2025 (UTC)
Anne Marie hochhalter 14th victim
I saw Anne's father's Twitter, and he said that her death is directly related to the injuries she sustained during the attack. So they're going to raise the death toll to 14, or they're not going to consider her death at all. Autor101202 (talk) 21:54, 8 March 2025 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 9 March 2025
Anne-Marie Hochhalter’s death was officially ruled as homicide. Maybe add to Secondary casualties? Myrddin44 (talk) 07:31, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
- I think secondary casualty is best suited for victims who lost their lives because of the tragedy, but their causes of deaths weren't homicide. This would include Austin Eubanks' overdose, and Carla Hochhalter and Gregory Barnes' suicides- people who died undoubtedly because of Columbine, but the perpetrators actions did not kill them. It has been definitely determined that Anne Marie was murdered by the perpetrators, so I hope that is taken into account when updating the death count. Both tragic, but the manner of their deaths are different and that should be accounted for in designation. It looks like Jefferson County intends on updating the death toll to reflect this, as well. 47.45.219.143 (talk) 09:12, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
- I agree with you, I consider her as the fourteenth victim. The others should be counted as secondary victims. Autor101202 (talk) 13:13, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
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