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The documentation of {{COI}} includes (emphasis in original):

Like the other neutrality-related tags, if you place this tag, you should promptly start a discussion on the article's talk page to explain what is non-neutral about the article. If you do not start this discussion, then any editor is justified in removing the tag without warning. Be careful not to violate the policy against WP:OUTING users who have not publicly self-disclosed their identities on the English Wikipedia.

I propose to add the same to the documentation of this template. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:55, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No objections, so done. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:26, 28 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• This needs to be discussed first by more than one editor. It is very hard to start a discussion without outing an editor so this is not a reasonable stipulation in my view, Atlantic306 (talk) 19:04, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Placing this template is a grave accusation against the article's editors. It should be substantiated. If a discussion is not possible due to outing then a block or ban of the involved account would do it for me. --Pgallert (talk) 05:39, 3 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also WP:WTRMT:

If the maintenance template is of a type that requires support but is not fully supported. For example: Neutrality-related templates such as {{COI}} (associated with the conflict of interest guideline) or {{POV}} (associated with the neutral point of view policy) strongly recommend that the tagging editor initiate a discussion (generally on the article's talk page) to support the placement of the tag. If the tagging editor failed to do so, or the discussion is dormant, and there is no other support for the template, it can be removed

-- Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:10, 3 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I totally agree with Atlantic306, I don’t see a pragmatic essence of doing such, I cannot “discuss” with a UPE editor how I know they are engaging in UPE without outing their real identity or outing my technique of nabbing UPE which would make evasion easier for them in future. Furthermore @Pgallert “substantiating” the UPE tag to anyone other than a sysop would be next to impossible without transgressing either of the aforementioned which no sane anti-UPE/spam editor would ever do. “Substantiating” also is best done off wiki. Celestina007 (talk) 01:54, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The requirement under discussion is not "discuss with a UPE editor how I know they are engaging in UPE"; it is "explain what is non-neutral about the article". In other words, describe the problem with the content, not the editor. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:27, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • That is not the only point of the tag - it is to alert the reader that the content has been added due to payments that are undisclosed, similar to the caveats added to paid for newspaper articles. Also the content may appear superficially neutral but can often be based on dodgy seo and paid pr sites that may have false information, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 19:26, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • If the content is "based on dodgy seo and paid pr sites", then fix it, or say so on the talk page. Since Wikipedia takes no sponsorship, there is no parallel with newspapers which do. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:37, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  I think if accusations cannot be substantiated then they must not be made. Any article here could be the product of paid editing---If you know it, submit evidence to the W?F, and they will initiate an office action. If you don't, don't place the template. Actually I think this template should go. --Pgallert (talk) 20:23, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  The template should not be changed without consensus which there is not at present. Because Wikipedia takes no sponsorship is even more reason that undeclared paid articles need to be identified to the reader because they may well assume that because of Wikipedia's status that the article has no conflict of interest which is not the case. The danger of outing certainly needs to be part of the template documentation as it is one of the most severely treated breaches of protocol, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 20:48, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  If the article has problems, they should of course be identified - both by the use of a template and by explanataon on the talk page. Without the latter, the former offers nothing more than our general disclaimer. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:12, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  For clarity, the text "Be careful not to violate the policy against WP:OUTING users who have not publicly self-disclosed their identities on the English Wikipedia." was already in the template documentation and this proposal does not change it. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:20, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Have left a link to this discussion at the WP:COIN talkpage to encourage more participation, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 20:56, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Interesting choice. I have left notices on Help talk:Maintenance template removal and at VPP & VpM. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:17, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Andy is right. Those are tags about the content, and if you put them in, you need to be able to tell what's wrong with the article and what needs to be fixed for the tag to be removed. It is not about marking an article as tainted just for the breaching of the guidelines and TOU. As to whether it should be done promptly, I would say that is not necessary provided you do it once challenged/asked-about-it. If you didn't explain on the talk page or are not available to explain yourself within a reasonable amount of time, anyone should be able to remove the tag. That said, it should not be removed simply because there is no explanation, but only if you can't figure out how the article has problems worth tagging. Best, Usedtobecool ☎️ 01:03, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• The main reason for this tag is to highlight to readers that there's a risk that the article is not at the NPOV standards that we would expect, and to highlight to editors that there's a potential problem with the content and it would be great if they could have an independent look. If I know the topic I can fix the problem without tagging it; if I don't know the topic then all I can say is that I think a problem may exist and ask for help - I can't outline the problem on the talk page, because I don;t klnow if it is more than simply a potential issue, and the tag pretty much summarises why I think that the potential is there. I guess I could just copy-and-paste the tag contents to the talk page: "I have added this tag because this article may have been created or edited in return for undisclosed payments, a violation of Wikipedia's terms of use. It may require cleanup to comply with Wikipedia's content policies." However, it seems a bit redundant given that the tag says this already. - Bilby (talk) 11:28, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Then why not use existing POV templates instead? This template accuses the article contributors of wrongdoing, first and foremost. If anyone enquires about it, we have to stay silent due to WP:OUTING. That's producing a terribly unaccountable process, contrary to what this place is about. --Pgallert (talk) 11:59, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • The particular problem it is stating is paid editing, which may create a POV issue. The POV issue presumes that the problem exists and doesn't explain why; this highlights that there is potential for a problem to exist, and explains why the tagger belives that a problem may be there. - Bilby (talk) 13:29, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "if I don't know the topic then all I can say is that I think a problem may exist and ask for help" For cases where you don't know there to be a problem with the content, you should start a talk page discussion, and should not tag the article. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:27, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • I know that there is a potential for a problem, as it may have been edited by someone who has been paid. Tagging the article points that out. Note that the tag says "It may require cleanup to comply with Wikipedia's content policies" (emphasis mine). It doesn't say that there is a problem, but it makes it clear that there is potential for one, and suggests that people should take that into account either by keeping that in mind when reading the article, or by checking and fixing any problems which they can identify. - Bilby (talk) 13:29, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • The potential for a problem exists in every article and, as I said above, is covered by our General Disclaimer. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:35, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • There's a general potential, and "we suspect that this specific article has issues, can someone have a look". This tag is for the latter. - Bilby (talk) 22:08, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
          • And again: talk pages are for the latter. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:21, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
            • I would have thought that the person we want to tell is the person reading the article, not hide the problem away so that only checking the talk page could reveal the issue. For my perspective, if I reasonably suspect that there is a problem with an article, and I can't fix it myself, I should be informing other editors and readers of the problem in the hope that the article can be improved and/or the reader can take it into account. Hiding the issue on the talk page doesn't do that. - Bilby (talk) 22:34, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
              • Then you are mistaken. We do not want to tell readers that there may be something unreliable about an article, but that we won't tell them what we think is wrong or why we think that. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:38, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
                • But we do tell them why we think that there's a risk of a problem and what is wrong - we suspect that the article was written by a paid editor. The tag explains exactly what the issue is: "This article may have been created or edited in return for undisclosed payments, a violation of Wikipedia's terms of use". We then explain to them why we see this as a potential issue, and what may need to be done: "It may require cleanup to comply with Wikipedia's content policies". The tag is self-explanitory. - Bilby (talk) 22:44, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• I'd say that every use of this template must be accompanied by an explanation of what specifically is problematic about the article content, and ideally it should always be accompanied by a specific clean-up template so that editors working on fixing that type of error know this article contains it. Without this explanation editors and readers are just left to guess at what might (or might not) be problematic and have no idea what needs to happen to the article to resolve the issue. If you are unable to identify a specific issue with the article content then you should not be placing any tags on the article, instead you should be placing a note on the talk page saying "I suspect one or more editors of this article may have engaged in undisclosed paid editing. There is nothing obvious to me as a non-specialist, but please can someone familiar with the subject check it for neutrality or other issues to see if there is something I've not spotted.". Articles don't magically become tainted just because of some association with an editor who may (or may not) have broken our rules about disclosure. Thryduulf (talk) 11:35, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Atlantic306 Please can you explain:

1. Under what circumstances would be necessary to place this template on an article, but not possible to explain the associated issues with the article content on its talk page (feel free to give actual examples)
2. Under what circumstances would it then be acceptable to remove that template?
3. How would a third party know when or whether. or not, to remove the template?

-- Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:27, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Further to the above, the article Spintel - for example - has this template, since June 2017, with no explanation on its talk page. The edit summary when it was added was "coi -> undisclosed paid". The editor who added it has not edited for 18 months.

How can a reader, or an editor new to it, know what issues the content has, or might have? How does the template tell us that? What would need to be done to the content, in order for the template to be removed? And how does the template tell us that? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:43, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm not under cross-examination here. If the article is known or suspected to be the work of an undisclosed paid editor then the tag needs to be added. Personally when I see a upe tag I check who added it and if it is an admin or experienced editor then I take it to be legit. In most of these cases there is offline evidence that if put on Wikipedia would be outing. The best course of action if you doubt a upe tag would be to email an admin who will look into it offline. The reason I came to this page was that a highly suspected upe was removing upe tags on the basis of your amendment which shows how it can be misused, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 00:48, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cross-examination? So much for WP:AGF. I'm seeking to better understand your position; and have offered an example - which you have ignored - to explain mine. Once again, no-one is asking for outing, but for an explanation of purported issues with content. And no, we should never have to resort to emailing admins to understand why an article is tagged as being problematic. The removal of unexplained upe tags (for which you provide no diffs) is not "misuse" of anything; it is the applying of such tags without explanation that is improper. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:09, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• If I gave diffs that could be interpreted as outing. You don't seem to recognise the problem of upe editing such as a number of upe pr agencies involved actually advertise the articles they have created so if a potential customer checks them out and finds no tag after you have removed it then they will conclude the article and pr agency are legitimate. Contacting an admin by email is needed because of the danger of outing. There is nothing improper about adding upe tags based on offline evidence that is best confirmed by an admin - you've just made up the rule yourself without consensus, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 20:16, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, giving a diff of the edit or edits you claim are "a highly suspected upe [...] removing upe tags" could not be interpreted as outing. I have made up no rules. Tags including this one are always supposed to be temporary; their purpose is not to permanently flag an article as in some way dubious; whatever makes you think otherwise? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:35, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, this particular tag is the exception to that rule, at least in terms of the purpose for which it was created - that is why there was no documentation for its removal. I've got about a hundred upe tagged articles on my watchlist and have cleaned them up a bit but it's problematic to remove the tag as by doing so you are enhancing the reputation of the upe editor / pr agency. Personally I consider it would be easier to delete upe articles and if they are notable let them be created by a legitimate editor without any stigma but that is not the consensus at present. Regarding wrongly added upe tags I have removed some added by newish editors when they should have been coi tags instead or not tagged. To be sure about removing them it is imho best to double-check with an admin, regards Atlantic306 (talk) 21:01, 9 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The current wording (It may require cleanup to comply with Wikipedia's content policies) implies that only content removal is required in order to clean up UPE. While removing promotional content is the main job to be done, it is equally possible that the problem is with negative content being excluded. Should we reword it to account for this? i.e. editors should evaluate available sources to determine whether they are given due weight. As an example, take a look at Beyond Meat (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) which has been plagued by paid editors since it was created.SmartSE (talk) 16:48, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Seeing this banner being used more frequently in cases that in the past would typically have been {{COI}}. For example, an employee of a small company edits the article. Or someone who works at a school edits an article about a student at that school. In both cases the account names are the name of the company, or name of the school ie. a disclosed identity.

These are clearly connected contributors a COI. The "$" symbol in the UPE banner gets people's attention - but when misused it dilutes the banners traditional meaning. In the given examples, there is no evidence of anyone being paid for the express purpose of editing Wikipedia, or even being paid at all. There is no third party involved. There is no hidden account involved. At worse they neglected to add a single sentence to their talk page disclosing their affiliation, despite effectively already doing so with an account name.

This banner should be used more sparingly when there is a clear paid violation and attempt to hide a disclosure. We should not be punishing newbies with this tag when they have already in effect disclosed their identity, and when there is no clear evidence they are being paid for the express purpose of editing Wikipedia, and not merely doing so on their own time but under what they think is an "official" account, which is how newbies think this being a good thing. Use {{COI}} instead. -- GreenC 14:19, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

disagree. Before newbies even start creating pages, they're already given heads up about COI editing. Graywalls (talk) 21:35, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]