Ham II - Now, this one's a little 'thin'! Do you have any sources that might assist, in the same way you've admirably expanded the BMA memorial? It has little online presence, beyond the HE/IWM details, and its offline presence is worse - not even mentioned in Pevsner, although it wasn't Grade II* when the revised London: South came out. I've copied Ham in, as they may be able to help, and will certainly correct my MoS errors. So who wants the honour of the last one, Kingston upon Thames War Memorial? All the best. KJP1 (talk) 11:36, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@KJP1: I'm afraid that besides the copyedit I've given the article, I can't help much with this. Lloyd, Potkin and Thackara's Public Sculpture of Outer South and West London (2011) from the Public Sculpture of Britain series might well be worth a look for both the Twickenham and the Kingston memorials, but unfortunately there's no copy near me. Ham II (talk) 20:25, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Not much on Twickenham, sorry, but there was more to be mined from the sources already included, and snippets from the likes of [2] or [3]

Kingston was done by Richard Reginald Goulden so something serviceable could be done (compare Malvern or Dover, but most particularly Reigate and Redhill). Or you might want to polish up St Michael Cornhill War Memorial, but there are still far too many red or unlinked memorials ("particularly important … of more than special interest") at Grade II* listed war memorials in England. Theramin (talk) 02:57, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Much improved - many thanks. Can't think why I didn't include Robertson. Best regards. KJP1 (talk) 07:45, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Jumping in here briefly, as this is my local area of London and I have several photos of war memorials from the area and could take more if needed. I was surprised (if pleased) to see an article created on Twickenham War Memorial. What would be the reason for this being Grade II* listed and something like the more imposing (and more visible, being by the side of a busy road) Isleworth War Memorial 'only' being Grade II? Is the line drawn strictly at the listed grade, or are there other criteria to consider? (PS. From the list, Harrow School War Memorial Building has an interesting history from my memory of reading about that a few years ago - it has a quote from 'O Valiant Hearts' - see here). Carcharoth (talk) 12:58, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well, using the advanced search for "war memorial (freestanding)" right now at the Historic England website, I get 4074 war memorials listed at Grade II (96.3%), but only 136 at Grade II* (3.2%), and just 20 at Grade I (0.5%).

As Historic England says here (emphasis added), "Grade I buildings are of exceptional interest, only 2.5% of listed buildings are Grade I;" [so 20 is a bit underweight: it could be about 100] "Grade II* buildings are particularly important buildings of more than special interest, 5.8% of listed buildings are Grade II*;" [also underweight: could be about 250] "[and] Grade II buildings are of special interest, 91.7% of all listed buildings are in this class …"

So, on that basis, an assessor considered that Isleworth is only "special" but Twickenham and the others at Grade II* etc are "particularly important" and "more than special interest".

Frankly, while the Isleworth memorial has its clock (which is somewhat unusual for a war memorial but not for a public monument) it otherwise looks like a fairly standard stone column, without any important historical or artistic connections that I can see, sorry.[4][5] It was listed at Grade II in 2000, and that looks about right to me. Compare Leckhampstead War Memorial, which has a few more points of interest but has only just (2016) been listed at Grade II. I expect some of the new listings added in the centenary years might be reassessed and upgraded in due course.

Whereas Twickenham went straight in at Grade II* in 2017, and I can see why: it has that great sculpture by a good if not famous sculptor who did few (perhaps no other) public commissions, its unusual side panels, and a great location.

Yes, as I commented at Talk:Grade II* listed war memorials in England, I think the Harrow School building is at the "interesting" end of things, as is the TUC one, and the relocated Pearl Centre one. The long list of red links there for "particularly important" war memorials in England is yet another answer (if one were needed) to the contention that Wikipedia might be nearly finished in terms of coverage. And I wonder how we would go about creating equivalent lists for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Theramin (talk) 01:05, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the thoughts on Isleworth War Memorial. I was also reminded of Teddington War Memorial (which is also Grade II listed). Where would be the appropriate place for a short paragraph on these war memorials if an article is not justified? Would such a short paragraph be best placed at the appropriate list articles and/or the articles on the places where they are located? Anything on the Teddington memorial might best be placed as a subsection in Teddington Memorial Hospital (it is out the front of that building). I also see Hampton Wick War Memorial is an article. It can be confusing to know where the line is drawn. Carcharoth (talk) 11:33, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The other thing the Harrow School article lacks is proper coverage of the Speech Room by the great Billy Burges. Indeed, it has almost no architectural coverage of the school at all. As you say, Theramin, so much still to do. But I have made a Start on the last London Grade II*. All additions/improvements gratefully received. KJP1 (talk) 14:35, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect you know Harrow School much better than I do, so please do jump in! That must count as "London" too, as much as Kingston does. And perhaps I might try the TUC (definitely London, and Epstein) or the Pearl (now Peterborough, but London originally, and Frampton). Lutyens is well covered (qv draft template at his talk page), but there are still several on that list, by the likes of Herbert Baker, or Reginald Blomfield, or Eric Gill. Some of these surely should be Grade I, and some of the Grade IIs promoted to II* too.

I've added what I can to Kingston, but perhaps Carcharoth or Ham II have more? (It had passed me by, or I had forgotten, quite how much of Goulden's output is listed - I'm tempted by Margaret Macdonald or Dolly Burton now. And I am also intrigued by this reference to Goulden doing an RAMC memorial at Millbank barracks, praised by the King apparently - perhaps this relates - but has it been lost? And it seems there is a statue of his at Haileybury, not on public display, similar to the one in Dover...)

Meanwhile, I am minded to write something about Fragonard's "Fantasy Figures"[6][7][8][9] because that is just shockingly bad (fantastical, indeed). Theramin (talk) 02:03, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

About the RAMC memorial, I found the following snippet from the BMJ in 1920 (page 807 of that volume): "During a visit to the Military Hospital at Millbank on June 8th the King inspected the memorial tablets placed in the recreation room. ... The memorial inscription runs as follows: “This room was remodelled and the sculptures erected in appreciation of the devotion to duty of the R.A.M.C. " So there are sculptures as well as tablets, it seems. There is more in 'Building - Volume 118 - Page 749' where the snippet I can see says: "of a barrack-room at the Millbank Hospital to form a war memorial, has recently formed the subject of a commission peculiarly full ... Four rooms have been treated and are now used as recreation room, canteen, corporals' room, and dining hall. ... work was inspected by the King on June 28 1920, [...] he covgratulated Mr. Goulden upon the excellent effect his work produced." Also something in 'The Hospital - Volumes 68-69 - Page 291': "Last week the King visited Millbank Hospital, in order to inspect memorial panels and a recreation room, provided out of funds generously given by Major W. N. Keeper [...] The panels provided by Major Keeper illustrate the work of the R.A.M.C. The first shows the stretcher- bearers bringing in [...]". Probably a report in The Times as well. Yes, it is reported on in the Wednesday, June 9, 1920 Issue 42432 p. 13. I found an accessible report here (Medicine and surgery in the Great War 1914-1918: an exhibition to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the armistice, 11 November 1918, where it states: "The war efforts of the Corps are specially commemorated by bronze plaques with relief scenes of the R.A.M.C. in action. These were 'erected in appreciation of devotion to duty of the Royal Army Medical Corps and of the services in relief of suffering in the Great War. The cost was deployed out of funds generously placed at the disposal of King George V by Major W. N. Keefer of Toronto late Indian Medical Service 1917.' R.A.M.C. Millbank." (this is only a catalogue listing, no photos of the exhibits). Putting 'bronze' back into the searches yields "These panels are in bronze treated in low relief and are examples of the careful handling of sculpture to represent realistic scenes" (from 'The Building' issue mentioned above) and there are pictures in 'The Graphic, Volume 102 page 326' from 1921. Carcharoth (talk) 16:27, 13 January 2020 (UTC) PS. Regarding the Harrow School War Memorial Building, much to my surprise, this page is still up on the internet (I first read it several years ago now) with photos of the interior of the War Memorial Building (the first photo is of a memorial roundel and a cabinet displaying the WW2 names), and a room in it dedicated to the memory of a casualty from WWI (the Alex Fitch Room). There was a commemoration event in 2018, described here. Finally, I've found it near impossible to find pictures of the 'Crypt Chapel' (and its memorials) at Harrow School. Carcharoth (talk) 17:14, 13 January 2020 (UTC) [reply]

Glad to see you are not completely dead[10]. Sorry I didn't send you a chrismassy card thing this year but was (a) not in the mood (b) events. Anyways nice to see another burst of energy from your internet account. PS, re dispondance; your not the only one.[11] Ceoil (talk) 01:49, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Athbhliain faoi mhaise duit! (I hope that looks about right, but don't ask me to pronounce it.)

Mood and events, indeed. Time, destiny, fate and eternity will come for us all in the end one day, but like Augustine let us hope not just yet. This place - present company excepted, naturally - it can become toxic, so I heartily recommend taking frequent and lengthy breaks to wash away the draining concretions of joyless muck and dust, and to reveal renewed inspiration and enthusiasm. Not sure I am either inspired or enthusiastic, as such, just yet, but I'll settle for not uninspired or unenthusiastic until the muse strikes.

Nice to see some old friends are still surviving and one hopes thriving. Theramin (talk) 02:27, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]