This article has not yet been rated on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Military history: Maritime / Russian & Soviet / Cold War / Operation Majestic Titan C‑class This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history C This article has been rated as C-class on the project's quality scale. Associated task forces: /  Maritime warfare task force Russian, Soviet and CIS military history task force Cold War task force (c. 1945 – c. 1989) Operation Majestic Titan (Phase V) Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Russia C‑class Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Wikipedia. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia C This article has been rated as C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Ships C‑class This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ships, a project to improve all Ship-related articles. If you would like to help improve this and other articles, please join the project, or contribute to the project discussion. All interested editors are welcome. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.ShipsWikipedia:WikiProject ShipsTemplate:WikiProject ShipsShips C This article has been rated as C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.

I think this article really should be moved to 'Kirov class battlecruiser' as it seems to be more of a discussion of the class as a whole, and then a new article created for the individual vessels. Thoughts? —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 01:14, 2005 Jan 3 (UTC)

This article, Kirov class battlecruiser, acurately describes the class as a whole.

Soviet battlecruiser Kirov accurately describes the Kirov.

While both entries could be improved, they both accomplish the desired purpose. --Jsolinsky 19:51, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You should look at the datestamps. I made that comment and then later separated out the two articles. —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 18:54, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)

In the first part of the article, it seems unlikely that the Iowa class battleship was returned to service to combat the Kirov class ship. During the end of the cold war, it was general knowledge that a "ship on ship" battle should never occur (a fact that was first shown during the Battle of the Coral Sea WWII). Missiles, subs, and/or aircraft would be the most likely methods of defeating the Kirov. The Iowa's 16" guns would be a last resort/defense. The Iowa class was returned to service for naval gunfire support (it did fire TOMAHAWK missiles from box launchers ABL, but this was an auxillary task since VLS and TTL is the primary method for TOMAHAWK).

The Iowas were indeed returned to service in response to the introduction of the Kirov, but it was more a matter of prestiege than combat effectiveness; the U.S. Navy didn't want to let the Soviets have a warship that was bigger and more powerful than anything it had, so it brought back the Iowas with secondary missile armament added.

Sorry, I still don't buy it. The Kirov was smaller than the supercarriers, so national pride seems served by the Nimitz, which was several years earlier and much larger. Maury 22:45, 29 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Displaced tonnage is all well and good, but I'd be willing to bet that a battery of 16 inch rifles still makes a more up-front impression. Some folks just don't mentally connect "Aircraft Carrier" with "Raw Unprocessed Whupass" while "Battlecruiser" and "Battleship" can both carry that connotation, whether or not it's deserved in relation to the Aircraft Carrier or not.--Raguleader 23:40, 29 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well I can speculate all sorts of reasons myself, but that doesn't help. I find the claim difficult to believe, and without a ref I consider it to be suspect. Maury 13:20, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds fair enough. If someone can find a legit source making the claim, it can be used for the article.--Raguleader 06:13, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article contains quotations footnoted to Bellona regarding comments by Kuroyedov and possible political issues surrounding the PETR VELIKIY. These comments contained in a Bellona article cite Novaya Gazeta as the source for the "political" discussion. This discussion also references the former commanding officer of PETR VELIKIY as the nephew of Admiral Kasatonov. Novaya Gazeta provides no source citations and is not inherently an authoritative source for naval reporting. Further, the Bellona article clearly lacks professional review since it purports to show a picture of the SLAVA Class cruiser annotated as a KIROV Class nuclear cruiser.Федоров (talk) 19:37, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reporting from www.globalsecurity.org not known to be authoritative when compared with data from Yu.V. Apalkov who has direct access to Russian Navy source data. Discussion of additional possible names for the fifth never laid down hull is not substantiated by either fact or Russian naval practice.Moryak (talk) 23:28, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If I have deciphered this Chinese website correctly, the ships have carried the following pennant numbers

• Kirov/Ushakov: 076 (1980), 181 (1981), 065 (1981), 076 (1982), 052 (1985), 085 (1985), 065 (1988), 092 (1990), 059 (1990), 090 (1993)
• Frunz/Lazarev: 190 (1984), 050 (1985), 750 (1985), 028 (1986), 014 (1987), 010 (1991), 015 (1994)
• Kalinin/Nakhimov: 180 (1988), 064 (1989), 085 (1990), 080 (1994)
• Yuri Andropov/Pyotr Velikiy: 183 and possibly 099

All very confusing. Was this constant redesignation of warships normal Soviet practice? Bastie 10:30, 21 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, some other navies change pennant numbers too. By the way, the picture in the page is of Frunze (aka Lazarev), not Kirov. --Mikoyan21 22:18, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, these aren't pennant numbers -- these are tactical numbers, and they refer not to the ship as such, but reflect ship's position in a current operational structure of the fleet. So, when this structure changes, so does the number. --Khathi 23:17, 4 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This ship class is called the Orlan class, not Kirov class. NATO perhaps thought it was Kirov because the lead ship of the class was called the Kirov? I oppose en-Wikipedia's habit in naming articles about Soviet Union's ship classes after their NATO callsigns etc. even though they have their original, official class names as well! I understand that many of us have originally heard of Soviet military hardware via NATO sources, calling them Typhoon, Kirov, Akula, Fulcrum and so on, but is there any reason keep on calling them with those names? Also, the en-Wikipedia is the biggest language version of Wikipedia and considered the reference for others. It should be neutral about these issues, not representing some USA-centered NATO view of things exhibiting NATO military slang. 213.243.160.111 07:24, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The names referred to above as "class names" are in fact NOT. These are Russian Navy assigned overall covername for individual ship designs. There is nothing wrong with using the NATO assigned names, particularly now that the Russian Navy announces the name of the lead unit of class. Using the name of first-of-class as the class name is standard and dominant world practice and not just a USA-centered NATO view. Previous NATO practice, creating class names from whole cloth in the absence of of any such being known in the Soviet era, could legitimately be called into question but at that time no one came up with a better scheme.Moryak (talk) 23:35, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So, does the big flag in the infobox for ship classes generally refer to whichever navy was the primary user of the ships in question, or just the first one to deploy them? I'm just wondering if there's some standard for why it would be the Soviet flag that is displayed here and not the Russian flag (If we normally show the flag of whoever deployed the ships first, or whoever deployed the most ships of the class, I guess using the Soviet flag would make sense).--Raguleader 04:29, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You do have a point there. I really think it should be the Russian flag. Maybe we should follow the pattern of other USSR/CIS ships and go with that. I don't have time to do some reasearch now, but I'll look back later. Jeremy Wang 01:16, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

It is argued that Kirov is not a battle cruiser because it lacks the characteristic heavy armor of battlecruisers. That makes absolutly no sense as the defining characteristics of a battlecruiser is that it is not as armored as a battleship. Battle cruisers are in general not smaller than battleships (e.g. compare Hood and Bismarck - Hood was actually longer and equally large). The original idea behind the battlecruiser concept was to built a ship which is more powerful than a cruiser in order to hunt cruisers and much faster than a battleship in order to escape the slower and more heavier armored battleships. The Russians refer to these ships as cruisers simply because their operational function is more similar to those of a cruiser simply because the battleship against battleship and battlecruiser against battlecruiser fights of world war two are long gone.

The most funny things about it is that Kirovs ARE armored. ;) While this isn't a true belt armor of dreadnaught days, and is never referred as such in any sources, at least one of them (Prof. Capt. Kuzin's monograph, and he was one of the ship's designers) says that magazines and such are protected so they can withstand battering by HE charges up to 200 Kg, which is about the mass of warheads of most Western cruise missiles. --Khathi 23:14, 4 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The hallmark of WWII battlecruisers was the relatively thin armour compared to dreadnaught battleships. That was the price for speed. A battlecruiser is hence a very large cruiser with heavy (traditionally battleship caliber) weapons. This description fits the Kirov-class perfectly. 130.237.216.122 (talk) 07:31, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The point about the Kirovs being battlecruisers because of armor, be it there or not, is moot, since - as was noted - its only one of three primary characteristics. After all cruisers in the WW1 and WW2-eras were armored as well, still modern warships are referred to as cruisers, even if they lack that characteristic. More significantly the primary aspect of a battlecruiser is, that it equals a battleships armament but with reduced protection and increased speed. Last time I checked the Kirovs did not sport any big-gun armament, let alone anything equaling that of any kind of battleship. Their speed is high, but not significantly higher than that of the last fast battleships such as Iowa, which, given continued development of battleship design, would have been the norm of the battleship type. Since no missile-battleship ever came to be and the term 'battleship", which always served as the guideline for defining the contrasting battlecruiser, effectively died out post-WW2, it is pointless and misleading to call the Kirov or any other modern warship design a battlecruiser. The term and concept of "battlecruisers" ceased to have any significance as early as the 1930s , as far as contemporary designs were concerned. Any characterisation of the Alaska-class as battlecruisers, for instance, was not contemporary and the characterisation as such of Scharnhorst and Gneisenau by the RN was a drastic exception not shared by the nation that actually built and used them. The Kirovs are guided missile cruisers and just that. Designating them "battlecruisers" does not add any information about their characteristics. Firepower and size alone are scalable aspects, which do little to change specific type-designations, otherwise we would have to redesignate pretty much any current DDG and FFG as light cruiser/battlecruiser/ship of the line etc. 110.20.39.17 (talk) 04:43, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the Kirov is more powerful than destroyers and frigates. Also, now, big guns are stuff of the olden days. There is no point in inserting a very heavy gun in there just to get it blown up by a CM. The claim of these ships to be battlecruisers is pretty well spoken, and anyway, no ship could go (except hydrofoils and some [maybe] new subs) faster than 40 kts. With all its modern armament, this really ought to be called a guided missile battlecruiser. Any cruiser nowadays is way smaller than these. Jeremy Wang 01:16, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

ex-Kirov was pierside when this image was taken. ex-Kirov was the only unit with two gun mounts aft. This image depicts another Kirov class, possibly Peter Velikiy as the other two are Pacific ships. This one, near Fokino, Primorsky Krai, looks pretty stripped down may be ex-Frunze since it's in the Pacific and the forward launchers look covered or removed and appears to be an inactive area, maybe a mothball fleet. This one near Bolshoy Kamen is a 4th Kirov class, the second ship in the Pacific, possibly ex-Kalinin. --Dual Freq (talk) 06:07, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

<<>>

Well there is a very weird situation in google earth. The first ship is Kirov its correct, can be identified by its two rear guns and twin SS-N-14 launcher. Second ship is not Petr Velikiy its the Kalinin. It can be identified from its green Helipad, and brown P-700 launchers. Petr Velikiy has its missile tubes painted to gray and has its SA-N-4 launchers hidden (or removed). It can be found at Severomorsk base at coordinates 69 05' 06.31"N, 33 25' 27.95"E.(I don't know how to send google earth images, if someone knows editing this part is welcomed) The image you claim to be Frunze is really Frunze, there is a picture of that area, showing Frunze and command ship SSV-33(the huge ship at the south of Frunze) exactly at same positions. The ship you claimed to be Kalinin is possibly Frunze also, moved while google earth was taking shots. Becouse it has 8 AK-630 positions, Kalinin has 6x CADS-1 in place of these. If its not frunze, that means there are 5 kirovs around =)

Regards, Andraxxus.

<<>>

The issue of the Fokino Kirov CGN is easily solved by the simple fact that only ONE Kirov, the Admiral Lazarev (ex-Frunze), was ever transferred to the Pacific. Only four Kirovs were built.Moryak (talk) 23:40, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone have an idea what the stripe or bump is that runs nearly the length of the ship on the hull above the waterline? --Dual Freq (talk) 19:07, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If I'm looking at the same thing you are (bends up and over the pennant number 085), it's a degaussing cable. Used for minimizing the ship's magnetic signature or something. 72.219.233.42 (talk) 01:18, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's ridiculous to call them battlecruisers, since battlecruiser class was extinct after Washington Treaty, and no new ships were officially classified this way in any navy (nor Scharnhorst, nor Dunkerque, nor even Alaskas were called this way). If we want to be precise, we should call them "heavy missile cruisers", according to Russian classification (although they are no heavy cruisers). (Not "large" cruisers, like in article, because they are Т�?желые атомные ракетные крей�?ера - tyazholy means "heavy") Pibwl ←« 18:20, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your looking to far into it. Every class of warship has to evolve, and the Battlecruiser has evolved into what the Kirov is. Just like how Cruisers do not resemble the Cruisers of ww1 or ww2, they are still classified as cruisers. This is the same as Battlecruisers, just the Soviets are the only ones cool/smart enough to build them. They ARE battlecruisers and you have to get over it, at least people are not calling them battleships because they are the same size as a ww1 one...imagine that... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.160.171.88 (talk) 12:38, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A ships' classification is a product of its' role and design characteristics. The Kirovs are cruisers, plain and simple. It's got nothing to do with the Soviets being cool and/or smart enough to build them(that has to be the most ludicrous argument I've heard so far). They provide the same role that modern cruisers do, providing large command facilities, along with significant AA, ASW and ASuW capabilities. If anything, the Soviets built them, and they classified them as heavy missile cruisers. Using USN classification, they would simply be CGNs, nuclear powered guided missile cruisers, akin to the USS Long Beach. The only reason the "battlecruiser" terminology was ever used was because of their size. If they were close to 10,000 tons displacement like a Ticonderoga, then the whole argument would be moot. --Dukefan73 (talk) 10:20, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Kirov-class is much larger and heavily armed that contemporary cruisers, but they do not have the heavy armour of a battleship, hence they are battlecruisers. 130.237.216.122 (talk) 07:38, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would debate the Kirovs being "much" larger and "more heavily armed" than contemporary cruisers, plus the armor part:

• On size, they fall below the 30,000-tonne standard (light) displacement level for WW2-era ships commonly classed as "battlecruisers," such as the Scharnhorst and Alaska classes. And since WW2 no ship class has SHRUNK in size; cruisers have arguably kept the same size, though partly through use of switching to destroyer-type hulls. But everything else, from frigates to carriers and everything else, have definitely gotten more massive, so it'd be hard to argue that 'battlecruisers' shrank down from 30 to 24 kT just to fit this one ship class.
• On armament, a Kirov is actually LESS well-armed than a Ticonderoga. The modern VLS gives a Tico up to a whopping 122 surface-to-surface and anti-ship missles, namely the Tomahawk, which can deliver a 450kg warhead to a range of 2,500 km, four times the range of the Kirov's P-700 Granit missiles, of which it only gets 20; so the Tico gets more than 6 times the number of cruise missiles with 4x the range.
• Battlecruisers were NOT unarmored; the Kirovs, for all intents and purposes, are not armored warships. They have the bare minimum of "protection" common to smaller warships: anti-splinter netting, and an armored turret around its main guns. The only real difference is that they have a lightly-armored reactor compartment. Since such armor would do nothing to keep them afloat, they cannot be considered "armored." Battlecruisers had a full armor scheme designed to protect the ship at large from not just gunfire, (armored belt) but bombs/missiles, (armored decks and superstructure) and torpedos; (anti-torpedo bulkheads) the difference was that they weren't as VIGOROUSLY protected against these threats as battleships were, (primarily in the gunfire department) but still had design armor protections against these threats, which the Kirovs utterly lack.

Overall, I find it hard to justify labeling the Kirov class as battlecruisers without also qualifying the Ticonderoga class as well. As Dukefan73 noted, they were expressely designed expressly for the cruiser role; they are chiefly armed with anti-air point-defense missiles and ASW weapons. The only argument they have is that they displace more than other cruisers, and that's a lousy argument at best; a Zumwalt class destroyer will displace ~15,000 tonnes, yet that won't make it a cruiser. And likewise, the CG(X) program called for a ship MORE massive than the Kirovs, and with 512 missiles, yet they weren't called battlecruisers. The Kirov's mass is merely because they combined a cruiser with a command ship. Nottheking (talk) 10:38, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In truth the classifications just change. Destroyer originally meant a ship that destroyed torpedo boats with gunfire. This is no longer a goal of any ship design, yet ships are still called destroyers. In fact, they are now as large, and fill much the same role, as cruisers once did. Modern ships cannot be shoehorned into a WWII classification, any more than WWII navies tried to shoehorn their classifications into a Victorian or a Napoleonic era scheme. HMS Vanguard (talk) 16:07, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I recall talking to a serviceman who stated that the Kirov had features to reduce its radar signature (presumably to the level of or below other ships in the fleet). On at least one sensor it could be identified via the fact that the wake was visible before the ship was. Does anyone else have sources on this? --Hrimpurstala (talk) 21:04, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The second paragraph ends with "The appearance of the Kirov class played a role in the recommissioning of the Iowa class battleships." This is potentially interesting, but the rest of the article makes no more mention if it; the article would benefit from explaining what reaction the Kirov-classic battlecruisers provoked in the West, and how this contributed to the recommissioning of the Iowa class battleships. -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 16:34, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is indeed very interesting, and somebody needs to give some details. I, however, have no sources with which to give some information. I saw some more on this topic to the top of the page. Jeremy Wang 04:49, 5 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by AirplanePro (talk • contribs)

This claim does not make very much sense. Iowa has no relevant capabilities for countering a Kirov. If no citation can be found, this sentence should be removed. HMS Vanguard (talk) 15:20, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'm sure a 16-inch shell hit would thoroughly ruin a Kirov's day. :P But I see your point. - The Bushranger (talk) 03:24, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not too sure if you're serious, but plenty of people are, so I hope you don't mind if I respond to this seriously. Kirov is designed to fire missiles at enemy ships (US fleet carriers, mainly, but would work just as well against a WWII battleship) at very long range. Iowa is designed to fight heavily armoured targets at [what is now] short range. The confusion seems to have come about from the use of the term "battlecruiser", ie. people thought that the Kirov class was heavily armoured in the old style, but this isn't true. The Iowa would not be able to get close enough to attack a Kirov, would be essentially helpless against the Kirov's own weapons, and would be no more effective against it if it did get into range than any destroyer armed with Harpoons. HMS Vanguard (talk) 15:10, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I admit, I was being a bit facetious, but no worries! Discussion is how we learn things. :) To respond to your point, the over-the-horizon guidance problem for anti-ship missiles has never really been satisfactorialy solved; however pure missile spam (which the Kirovs definitily have) can get around that. Of course, then we get into the "can battleship armour defeat an anti-ship missile" argument, which is a whole 'nother kettle of carp. And the Iowas are packing Harpoon and Tomahawk too... I suppose in the end the question is, "can the Iowa get into gun range". If it can, it likely wins handily (and at a cheaper cost per shot than missiles, too), but the problem is getting there - which I cheerfully admit is "bloody unlikely" against the kind of task force the Kirov would be at the middle of, not even counting the neo-BC itself. - The Bushranger (talk) 18:20, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Missiles aren't made with beyond the horizon ranges just for fun, but because that is their intended use. Nor is whether missiles can penetrate battleship armour a hypothetical: the answer is yes, even for lighter and slower examples than a P-700. Iowa did have Harpoons and Tomahawks, but then, so do 7,000t destroyers. The whole notion is akin to the US responding to the launch of HMS Dreadnought by reactivating the USS Monitor. The distinction is somewhat confused because the technology fundamentally changed, rather than just being 'bigger and better' versions of the old, but the disparity in capabilities is actually much larger. HMS Vanguard (talk) 15:49, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• The Iowa Class battleships were re-commissioned (at great cost) for the Vietnam War because of their 16-in. guns which could shell targets significantly inland without endangering pilots. Since the Kirov class nuclear-powered cruisers were not built for nor used in the Vietnam War it appears illogical to connect them with the U.S. re-commissioning the Iowa class battleships. My suggestion is to eliminate any mention of the Iowa class battleships in this article on Kirov class nuclear cruisers.Федоров (talk) 18:35, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not quite. Only one Iowa class BB was recommissioned, briefly, for Vietnam. It was in the early 1980s that all four Iowas were recommissioned, and the Kirov class was one of the reasons - albiet not a specific one, more along the lines of one of the factors leading to the decision to have a 600 Ship Navy of which the Iowas were to be a part. - The Bushranger (talk) 03:24, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I remember a story, yes that was a factor, some people were doing a war-gaming exercise (perhaps associated with Naval War College in Newport RI), and as exercise got to the point of receiving authorization to open fire; range between a Kirov and a battleship was the battle ship was within the minimum range of the SSN-19, and also within 16-inch gun range. Also battleships were brought bask as cost to upgrade then was near the same as build a new OHP/FFG-7 ship- yet much more capability; and battle resistance. Once in operation, operating costs for the BB was MUCH higher (manpower and fuel). It was something recognizable to President Reagan and all, so it did make a difference. Should remain, citation exist. Wonder how the battleship armor would do versus the SSN-19? Also, when brought back, the control system for the 5 inch guns could not handle a highly super-sonic target 74.214.39.190 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:42, 11 July 2010 (UTC).[reply]

In the article it says: "Propulsion: 2-shaft CONAS, 2× KN-3 nuclear propulsion with 2× GT3A-688 steam turbines 140,000 shp[1] Speed: 32 knots (59 km/h) Range: 1,000 nautical miles (2,000 km) at 30 knots (56 km/h) (combined propulsion), Essentially unlimited with nuclear power at 20 knots (37 km/h)"

in the FAS org it says: "The ship's propulsion system is based on a combination of nuclear power and steam turbine, with two [four according to some sources] nuclear reactors and two auxiliary boilers. The propulsion system provides a full speed of 31 knots. When operating on the auxiliary boilers the ship's speed is 14 knots and the ship has an endurance of 60 days. The selection of the machinery was determined by the role of the cruiser and its assigned missions. The automated main nuclear machinery comprises two reactors (to produce steam for operation), two main geared-turbine units developing 70,000 hp each (to ensure full cruiser speed of at least 30 knots) and two stand-by steam boilers of 115 t/h capacity. The stand-by steam boilers provide for development of 17 knots with nuclear reactors shut-off and ensure an operation range of up to 1,000 miles with shipborne fuel."

(correct me if I am wrong) This means, ship uses Nuclear reactors to boil water and produce steam that drives steam turbines. With nuclear power, ships range is unlimited at its full speed. In case of emergency, two steam boilers are fitted, they provide 17 knots speed and 1000 nm range without the use of nuclear reactors.

I think the article should be edited like: "Propulsion: 2-shaft CONAS, 2× KN-3 nuclear reactors(300MW each), 2× GT3A-688 steam turbines, 2x auxiliary boilers, 140,000 shp[1] Speed: 30 knots+ (56+ km/h) Range: unlimited with nuclear power, 1000nmi on auxiliary boilers at 17 knots (30 km/h)"

Suggestions?? 78.166.75.118 (talk) 01:41, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Both seem wrong. Believe the reactor is the primary power source- it converts water to steam. the boilers are only able to super-heat the steam to a higher temperature and provide an higher speed (greater power from better thermal efficiency). If the reactors were out, they are dead in the water. There is one max speed with just the reactors, and a higher speed possible with the boiler also in use. World War Two (WWII) designed boilers had a M shaped furnace- 2nd side controlled the superheat- which was needed for a higher power/speed. Normal operations might not use the superheat at all. 1950s era designed boilers changed to a D shaped boiler and better protection to the tubes for super-heating, and remove ability to control amount of superheat from the operator. (see Water-tube boiler (section for D-type boiler). I am saying unlimited range at 20Knots, (max power from reactors) range for faster than 20 knots is "1000 miles" (or more range at say 24 knots). Realize the stupid element of design as I describe it (dead with out reactors, but there are 2). . 74.214.39.190 (talk) 23:01, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The statement in this title has come under some question. If there is an erstwhile editor that does not agree with the title statement, please provide proof that it is incorrect. Otherwise, the attempt to insert "possibly" has no meaning.Федоров (talk) 21:13, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Obviously, there are editors who would rather play tit-for-tat edit changes than engage in a discussion. I have repeatedly edited in that the Kirov Class cruise is the "most powerful" class of naval combatants other than aircraft carriers and nuclear powered submarines. I base my edit on the huge number and variety of very capable weapons carried by these ships. Those who would change this edit are challenged to state which world warships, other than the classes mentioned above, are "more powerful" than the Kirov Class cruisers. I await your responses and rationales. If no persuasive responses are forthcoming I request the oversight editors to restore the "most powerful" qualifier.Федоров (talk) 18:27, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies for not thinking to look near the top of the article, in the middle of older posts, for a discussion of this topic. The general rule on WP is to post new topics at the bottom of the talk page. I'm not trying to jump your case, but that is why I missed your earilier comments.

Per WP's Verifiability policy. all claims are subject to using reliable sources. If the Kirovs are indeed considered the "most powerful surface combatants today", then you should have no problem providing a reliable source which actually states that. Until then, please leave the statement out. Thanks. - BilCat (talk) 18:40, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• I am not the originator of and did not begin this is it or is it not the "most powerful" surface ship other than aircraft carriers exchange. When I originally read this article it said "most powerful". Presumably, the original drafter did provide a source. I have merely tried to reset some more recent attempts to delete that modifier. As to your comment regarding citing authoritative sources, I would have to honestly say that the strict application of that criteria would significantly downsize many articles. In all too many cases contributors consider any citable source to be "authoritative". Given that there exists no shortage of individual opinions far from all citable sources are "authoritative". Also, I do not see many players among the "oversight editors" that appear seemingly qualified to rule on the inputs of others in the naval or specifically Russian naval realm. All wikipedia players and their individual profiles are "self defined" and cannot be considered any more real than those of the many persons who have created "Facebook" or other networking site personae.Федоров (talk) 22:59, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just to add, every edit page states that content must be "verifiable". Given the characteristics of the Kirov Class cruiser, I again challenge anyone to show how the Kirov Class is not verifiably the "most powerful" current surface warship class other than aircraft carriers.Федоров (talk) 23:02, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid you have it a little backwards. Statements need to be verified, therefore it's up to you - or anybody else - to verify that the Kirov class is the "most powerful" surface warship class other than aircraft carriers. The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. Regardless of its comparative stats to other vessels, if you can't verify with a source that it is the "most powerful", then that statement has to be left out, not left in if not verified as not. - The Bushranger (talk) 00:35, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipolicy is that the provider of the claim is responsible for referencing said claim. It is not for the objectors to prove that the claim is unsupported. See WP:CITE. Mjroots (talk) 09:39, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

While I personally agree with this statement, it isn't verifiable. To demand others prove a negative is unreasonable. As it is essentially a value judgement, I think the statement should be removed. The capabilities of the ship are stated, and stand or fall on their own merit. HMS Vanguard (talk) 18:04, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Concur. It depends on how one defines "most powerful". It is just the number of types of weapons? What about quantity of each weapons type (rounds), range, explosive yield, etc.? All these factors in the modern era make it difficult to be precise, especially when nuclear warheads are included. - BilCat (talk) 18:19, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• What happens when somebody chooses to delete something and the footnote goes with the deletion? Федоров clearly stated that he was merely attempting to return what someone else had chosen previously to delete/alter. The deleted/reinserted statement on "most powerful" appears on the face of it to be correct. In the Wiki world which member of the "correctness police" would be responsible to go all the way back through the long history of edits to this article to find the original comment which may have had a footnote? Then there is the issue of citation - as noted just because you can footnote a citation does not mean that that citation is correct. I have seen many seemingly "authoritative" sites which have significant problems with correct facts. I thought that Федоров's logic in referencing the article's own data as proof of "most powerful" was compelling.Moryak (talk) 21:22, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously, this one. The "most powerful in the world" statement first appeared at 08:15, 5 May 2008, in this diff, created by an unregistered IP editor, and without any reference whatsoever. Also, I don't believe having the article referencing itself to "prove" a subjective judgement serves Wikipedia or its readers. Saying that Kirov is the largest surface combatant is easily provable or disprovable as an objective fact. Saying it's the most powerful is fraught with difficulty due to, as BilCat pointed out, the very defintion of "most powerful" will vary from editor to editor and reader to reader - and, in fact, the term itself, used in this fashion (as opposed to, for instance, describing the output of its powerplant) could, IMHO, very easily be argued to be, if not POV, a less encyclopedic phrasing than, say, "most heavily armed" (which still runs into the "varying defnitions of 'most heavily'" problem). - The Bushranger (talk) 23:52, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

largest and most powerful non-aircraft carrier warships in the world

It is clearly not the most powerful. The most powerful were the Musashi and Yamato. Nothing built since have been more powerful. As for "today", there are still Iowa-class battleships extant in the world, even if they are not in service. 70.29.208.247 (talk) 05:06, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Please pay attention to the wording. The statement "most powerful" applies to non-aircraft carrier surface ships currently operational in the world today. However, if you want to compare the fire power of the Kirov Class CGN with that of the Musashi, Yamato, and Iowa please tell me how those ships were more powerful that the Kirov Class each with 352 modern missiles.Moryak (talk) 12:59, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]