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The title is prejudice, and along with it's opening statment. there is a clear violation of NPOV by the prejudice Tiltle and the opening statment

I added addtional line on to article - not deleting anything, just adding along the "arab lines" - the "jewish lines" as well, but some how someone trys to shut my mouth not include the Jewish side of the story.

I want to add my "addtional lines" first (not deleting others, and then discuss the title. --Shevashalosh (talk) 05:32, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please discuss your "additional lines" before adding or deleting anything. What exactly would you change?:Thank you. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 06:04, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't want to "delete" any content in body of the article, but rather "add on" the "Israeli lines", to be living "side by side" with the "Arabs line".

As for changes: The prejudice title should be change, to "Battle of deir yassin", as it is defined and widley known (other then arabs - see google) and rephrase the prejudice opening statement but do note in openong statement, that the arabs see this battle as a massacre, which is exaccly the reality of it, and thus, including both sides. Thank you --Shevashalosh (talk) 16:17, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Yoav Gelber, Propaganda as History - What really happened at Deir Yassin ? talks about that sujbect and refers several times to "Deir Yassin Battle". His conclusion is :

The massacre at Deir Yassin, if what happened in the village deserves this definition, was an almost inevitable outcome of circumstances – the nature of the combatants on both sides, their organization and location, level of training, deployment and mastery of command and control, the absence of proper military targets, the presence of a large number of civilians, and overarching exigencies and special stresses inherent in this kind of intra-communal warfare. Certainly, it was not the bloodiest massacre of the war. The killing of 240 Jews in Gush Etzion after their surrender, and 250 Arabs during the occupation of Lydda and its aftermath were more extensive by far.

Ceedjee (talk) 16:44, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Alan Dershowitz talk about "Deir Yassin massacre" in his book The case for Israel
• So does Israeli historian David Tal in his book "War of Palestine, 1948"

Ceedjee (talk) 17:28, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Battle is hardly the correct term...Attacking a civilian village is not a Battle...Maybe a title of "IZL and LHI run amok killing indiscriminately in Deir Yassin".....however "massacre" is also an overstatement... Deir Yassin Incident would be more appropriate....using Battle to describe 2 groups of undisciplined militia attacking a civilian village would get you laughed out of any Military Academy...Google gives 278 hits for Battle of Deir Yassin and 15,700 for Deir Yassin Massacre...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 17:22, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is how it is widely known - "battle" (see google). The title "massacre" is a prejudice arab pahrse, not else. You can't determine a title based on arab alligations and and arab phrases alone, against what this battle is known for other then arabs.

Ashley has just given you the numbers that prove the contrary. And this is the same in google book.

Surley, if terrorists attacks, or any other attacks come out of a villagers, then you must attack that villagers and their village serounding the road to Jerusalem -shooting at you, when you wanna get Jewish convoys heading towards Jerusalem to supply food and water to Jewsih population.

Funny. Deir Yassin unhabitants had signed agreement with the neighbouring kibbutz. And they had expelled ALA soldiers in respect of this. They didn't participate to the blocus of Jesuralem.

This was included in Operation Nachshon, to conduct a battle that to clear the road to Jerusalm, (and allocate the Jewish state territory, on half of the land, which arabs refused to recoginzes it's right to exist - already in 1948)

No it was not included in operation Nahshon. :-) IZL and LHI decided they wanted their victory.

It is known to Jews and people other then arabs as "battle", and this is exaclly the reality, and by anycase, a prejudice title (and opening statemnet). "Masscare" known to arabs should be included within the body of the artice, not else.

As already told you here above Yoav Gelber among many talks about "massacre". So what ? Will you stop claiming and try to develop the article and not fight for nothing ?

By any case, while disscussing the prejudice title, I wanna add addtional line, living "side by side" (not deleting) the "arab lines". I can't find a problem in doing so - do you ?

LOL. LOL. LOL. That could sound logical and fair. But given what you want to add, it is not a "side by side" living. This is an encyclopaedy. Not a wikipedia:ballteground for Mudjahideen of the keyboard... Find several wp:rs sources, cross check and develop articles.

--Shevashalosh (talk) 20:20, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The title of this article has been debated ad nauseum. Please see my comments above concerning the archived discussions. There is no reason to discuss this again.

Please, can we discuss the proposed changes to the article.

Shevashalosh, I asked you what exactly you would like to change, and you didn't respond. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 20:36, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Reasoning for changing title now:

1) NPOV tag is placed,

2) The absence of the Jewish story - the absence of people complete knowlege of the facts, made them conclude this title (example, the word "battle" disapeared" during the course of time).

3) A prejudice title by any case (and opening ststement), that violates NPOV policy

Immidiate edit, for now:

A) addtional exsiting line in paragraph 2 of opening statement: The size of the figure had a considerable impact on the conflict in creating panic and became a major cause of the 1948 Palestinian exodus

that staes: + whereas the Jews perceived this exodus to be the flee of local arabs under the promise of neighboring arab states to invade and eliminate the exsiting Jewish community (The Yishuv) and the newlly emerging Jewish state.

B) adding additional line, to exsiting line in paragraph 3 of opening ststement:...it took place weeks before the official declaration of war in May 1948

that says: + The day Israel declared it's Independence.

and finally:

If I find anything else needed, I will post here, but this is for now,

After this immidiate edit, I want to continue the disscussions on NPOV violation of prejudice title and opening statement, but this is the immidiate edit I would like to add for now.

Shabazz ? --Shevashalosh (talk) 21:21, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A) I agree that the traditional Israeli narrative is that the Palestinians fled because the other Arab states said that they would be able to return home after the victory against the Jews. But what does that have to do with Deir Yassin?

B) Yes, the official declaration of war in May followed Israel's declaration of its independence. But again, what does that have to do with Deir Yassin?

Keep in mind, Shevashalosh, that this is an encyclopedia article about the April events in Deir Yassin. It's not a history lesson about the Arab-Israeli conflict of 1948. The article needs to stay focused on its subject. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 21:42, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, but the article does mention other events in context, later then April 1948, that fact the importance of it is that the battle took place before may 15, the day of the declration of war - so you need to add that the same day , was the day Israel declaired it's Independence.

Second, The article did find it in contecxt to mention that the battle and the allegdlly high number that were killed, caused panic to become 1948 Palestinian exodus (after), and so in the same context, you must add the fact the the Jewish community (the Yishuv), perceived this exodus as local arabs fleeing under the promise of neighbouring arab states to eliminate the Jewish community, the Yishuv, and the newlly emerging state.

--Shevashalosh (talk) 22:15, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Shabazz ? --Shevashalosh (talk) 22:29, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, I'm not the only editor whose opinion is important here. I just happen to be the only one here today.

Second, I still don't understand why "you need" to add that information. You're talking about introducing information that has nothing to do with Deir Yassin. The idea that the events at Deir Yassin contributed to the Palestinian exodus is cause and effect. The idea that Israelis believe the Palestinian exodus had other causes is unrelated to the subject of this article. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 23:20, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, if you have the cause and affect, then you must include full info about it, the jews saw this as caus and affect on eliminating them.

As for declration of war may 15, that is mentinded , the fact, that it was the day that Israel declaired it's independence is basiclly absent.

Shabazz ? --Shevashalosh (talk) 00:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Benny Morris and other scholars refer several times to Deir Yassin to explain the PAlestinian exodus. Taht is the reason why we talk about this.

Are there scholars who refer to Deir Yassin to talk about the Jewish perception of the future or to the 1948 Israel declaration of independence ?

Background is not just a matter of satisfying people because they like it or don't like it. It needs good historical reasons.

Maybe somebody tried to explain the Deir Yassin atrocities by the fact that Irgun and LHI soldiers wanted to do to Palestinians what they fear will be done to them later (so as an excuse). I can check this. That is not impossible. Ceedjee (talk) 07:41, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If one is to refer to suspected attacks from the village as "Terrorist" attacks maybe one should remember that Lehi and Irgun were designated as terrorist organizations....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 09:30, 14 August 2008 (UTC) how can one say that the article hasn't got the Israeli line as most of the article is based around Milstein and Morris?...To make the article neutral one needs to add far more from the Palestinian perspective. At present the article is far to Israeli centric...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 09:56, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is true it is not neutral.

I just want to point out that the expression "Israeli centric" is nonsense. Among Israelis, there are different perception of the past, as well as "Arab centric" when there is "Palestinian perspective" and the "Arab perspective"... NPoV is a real challenge for all these events. Ceedjee (talk) 15:21, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article is based around Morris (9), Milstein (20), Meir Pa'il (2), Kananah & Zaytuni (6), Gorodentchik (4), Silver (2) and the rest 1 ref each. That is overwhelmingly from an Israeli perspective.....7:1 ratio...The article is slightly more weighted to Israeli right than to Israeli left....I do realize the limitations imposed by the lack of Arab sources...However, given the lack of Arab sources it is not to bad a job of presentation of the various arguments....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 14:03, 15 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The entire world knows there was a Massacre In 1998 the Zionists of America published an extensive denialist piece entitled "Deir Yassin: History of a Lie" which is reproduced in full here. Although it was a denialist piece, it conceded that academia overwhelmingly supported the view that a massacre took place: "A total of 170 English-language history books which refer to the battle of Deir Yassin were analyzed for this study. Only 8 of the 170 raised serious doubts as to whether or not there had been a massacre." In other words, 95.3% of academic sources reviewed for the article accepted that a massacre took place. That, by any measure, is an overwhelming consensus, and demonstrates just how marginal the anti-massacre position is. PR^talk 08:44, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The "entire world" also believes that "Baywatch" makes for better TV than Shakespeare. This does not prove anything. Nor does the fact that "academia overwhelmingly supported the view that a massacre took place." You'd have to take at least one good course in historiography to see exactly what sort of incorrect information gets into history books. "Deir Yassin: History of a Lie" tried to fix that problem - that is, in fact, what their "concession" meant! No amount of dismissing it as "denialist" is going to change that. Why don't you try to refute some of the facts it produced, instead of just saying that "lots of people agree with me"? A fact being "amrginally believed" does not change its truthfulness one iota.FlaviaR (talk) 05:13, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The entire world may in fact be correct in believing that "Baywatch" makes for better TV than Shakespeare (there aren't enough Shakespeare plays to fill more than just over one season for instance), and that academia's overwhelming support of something is a good indication that the opposing view is a fringe belief. "Deir Yassin: History of a Lie" reads just like a conspiracy theory ("Only 8 of the 170 raised serious doubts as to whether or not there had been a massacre"... "this extraordinary pamphlet, with its complete reversal of earlier Labor Zionist charges of a massacre, was almost universally ignored by historians"). It should be noted that even "Deir Yassin: History of a Lie" acknowledges that 100+ civilians, among them old men, women and children, were killed by Israeli irregular forces, well before the '48 war.MeteorMaker (talk) 19:26, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Again, just because "more people think so" doesn't make things so. Facts are what makes things so. Like, for instance, the fact that a season on television is barely 26 episodes, and none of them over an hour. There's more than enough Shakespeare for that. IOW, opinions are not facts (especially the remark that "History of a Lie" reads just like a conspiracy theory").FlaviaR (talk) 06:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's hardly anything else than a personal opinion that Shakespeare would make for better TV than "Baywatch", so it was a bad example to begin with. What about the fact in the last sentence in the post you replied to, doesn't that kind of invalidate the claim that a massacre did not take place in Deir Yassin? MeteorMaker (talk) 15:07, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". If "academia overwhelmingly supported the view that a massacre took place", then Wikipedia says a massacre took place. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 02:31, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

You contradict yourself, however unwittingly: verifiability does NOT equal "everyone believes". DO you know how many people used to think radio programs were real life (for just one egregious example)? FlaviaR (talk) 06:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Verifiablility, in the WP sense, means roughly "can be linked to", preferably to solid, reliable, academic, non-fringe sources. I doubt there was ever an academic consensus that "War of the Worlds" was real, so I don't know what you expected your example to prove. You may also find this reading enlightening. MeteorMaker (talk) 15:07, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If that's all verifiability is, then everything I have said should stand. Your strawman doesn;t change that, FlaviaR (talk) 07:06, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Go ahead then and verify everything you've said: That Shakespeare makes for better TV than "Baywatch", that academic consensus = "everyone believes", that there wasn't a massacre at Deir Yassin despite the fact that even your best source acknowledges that 100+ civilians, among them old men, women and children, were killed by Israeli irregular forces. MeteorMaker (talk) 07:44, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for admitting that your opinions don't make fact, & that nothing you post proves that there was a massacre. FlaviaR (talk) 22:42, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am from the village of Deir Yassin. I am from the Jaber family, currently one of the biggest families from Deir Yassin. This article is very biased. Ask anyone who was present in Deir Yassin and they will tell you there was NO massacre. Most of the men in Deir Yassin either served in the British army or were part of militias carrying out attacks on the Jews. Two Jewish gangs decided to attack Deir Yassin while many of the men of Deir Yassin were away on a mission. The remaining people, both men and women, defended the village. This battle lasted about two days. At this point, the villagers were out of ammunition and supplies and the battle was over. There were casualties on both sides. Seventy-two villagers died in the battle. I am not sure how many died on the Jewish side. That is basically the short version of what happened. Arabs from neighboring towns and villages over exaggerated the events. They claimed women were raped and hundreds of people were killed. None of that is true. To call this even a massacre is an insult to all of the villagers of Deir Yassin who fought bravely and paid the ultimate price. There are many survivors of that battle who are still alive today. Several of them live with their descendants in Chicago and San Diego. I urge all of you who are interested in this topic to seek out people from Deir Yassin instead of getting your information from these liberals who call themselves supporters of Arabs. They are not helping by keeping the lies about a massacre going. They are just attempting to gain sympathy for their own causes. Also, beware of the websites collecting money for a supposed Deir Yassin Memorial. If anyone has any questions or comments on Deir Yassin, feel free to email me at "alix007x@yahoo.com" Patriot007 (talk) 09:06, 6 November 2008 (UTC)Patriot007[reply]

Hi! The person from Jaber family, are you a jewish settler or a Palestinian? I think academic sources are infact based on witness accounts. And did you question yourself that those descendents who are displaced, why they are not being let come back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.85.194.75 (talk) 19:40, 1 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for coming forward with your story - I just wish there was a way to verify it for inclusion in the article. FlaviaR (talk) 22:42, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This article's title is fine as it is. Take a look at Kfar Etzion massacre. --Sherif9282 (talk) 15:27, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Further to what I'm adding at the end of the previous section, the statement in the lead that: "The battle of Deir Yassin took place weeks before the Kfar Etzion massacre and the official declaration of war in May 1948" reads like well-poisoning - if not outright denialism. Amongst other things, it encourages editors such as Shevashalosh above (now indef-blocked for making legal threats) to try and shovel in all kinds of unpleasant revisionist nonsense.

I propose to remove that statement from the article. Kfar Etzion was an armed camp, deep inside what was to become the new (though completely unprepared) Palestinian(?) state. The settlers in Kfar Etzion had a choice of cooperatively living under the new sovereignty or evacuating a place they'd lived in no longer than 5 years. Instead of which, they chose, quite freely, to take up arms and defy the armed services of an entire state (which happened to be Jordan).

Sad though it was that a considerable number were massacred after surrender, they'd chosen to fight and had been doing so for months. (Not so long ago, under Christianity, a city that resisted a siege was considered lawful target for massacre). The defenders of the three adjacent settlements (who'd been there a maximum of 3 years) were taken as POWs and released some 6 or 9 months later. This is hugely different from the defenders of Deir Yassin, innocent (indeed friendly) villagers surprised in the middle of the night by a gang of militants (to give them their most favorable title) who planned, but failed to arrange, a panic with psychological warfare (loud-speaker warnings such as those used on 27th March to warn of a typhoid catastrophe such as the one that struck Acre before that city's fall). PR^talk 08:44, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kfar Etzion was a civilian settlement, not an "armed camp". Its residents were armed, yes, just like the residents of Dier Yassin. Please don't remove well sourced information in order to push a POV. NoCal100 (talk) 14:50, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Though PR is wrong in virtually all he has written above (it isn't well-poisoning, nor denialism, no serious person disputes Kfar Etzion was a massacre, etc), he is right that the clause in question it doesn't belong in the lead. It might be possible to discuss the chants of "Deir Yassin" that those Arabs who perpetrated Kfar Etzion chanted, but that would go later in the article, not the lead. IronDuke 15:17, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have no problem with that.NoCal100 (talk) 15:26, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with NoCal100 IronDuke and PR here. There is no reference to Deir Yassin in the lead of the Kfar Etzion massacre, and so the reference here is out of place. Removing "The battle of Deir Yassin took place weeks before the Kfar Etzion massacre and the official declaration of war in May 1948" RomaC (talk) 17:07, 20 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This article is full of [citation needed] markings. If the claim cannot be verified it should not be in the article at all. Sections about historical background and the loudspeaker truck are nothing but hearsay unless someone can provide documentation. Shame on you nerds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.244.63.215 (talk) 03:27, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What are the POV and unreferenced issues, Wikifan? SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 23:29, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]