I don't really see what possible justification there is for redirecting this to Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, an article about a UK-based group opposing one aspect of nuclear technology, rather than to anti-nuclear, (which isn't but should be) about the more general international movement.

I can see one obvious reason: To promote the organisation in question. But perhaps that's unkind.

As a (generous IMO) peace (;-> offer, let's try a disambig. Andrewa 16:20, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any antinuclear wiki?. --HybridBoy 13:22, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If by anti-nuclear, you mean a wiki centered around the environmental dangers of the anti-nuclear movement, then I do know of one. -Theanphibian ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:39, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This page is pro-nuclear. And anti-democratic because don´t accept democratic result of phase-out nuclear power plant. --Nopetro 23:38, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Did you even understand what I wrote? Do you even speak English? Your above response above not relevant or coherent. -Theanphibian ^{(talk • contribs)} 02:27, 13 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The wiki says in the Main Page (you have to register to read) :

"It's start-up was blocked in November 1978 by thin majority of 50.47% in popular vote. Citizens movement START ZWENTENDORF organizes Austrian-Czech border blockades and demonstrations to start-up the nuclear power station in Zwentendorf in Austria". Really antidemocratic.--Nopetro 08:01, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You really don't understand what they did there do you (I'll give you a hint: Start Zwentendorf doesn't organize border blockades and demonstrations)? -Theanphibian ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:17, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm adding a More sources tag to this article because there are many unsourced statements. There are also quite a few blog sources (eg., blogspot.com) which are cited and which are unacceptable on WP. These should be removed. The other thing is that at the very least the title of the source document, not just the URL, should be given in the reference list.

I've been watching this article for some time and it's ironic that an article with the title Anti-nuclear movement has now become one of the most pro-nuclear on WP. This is mainly due to contributions from Cde3.

Reading the criticism section one gets the opinion that all the nuclear experts are pro-nuclear. This is clearly not the case as physicists such as Amory Lovins and Ian Lowe have "specialist technical knowledge" and are anti-nuclear. As far as pro-nuclear environmentalists go, Lovelock and others have their critics, yet this seems to be overlooked in the article.

Various disparaging comments are made about renewable energy technologies, yet the reality is that many renewables are being rapidly commercialized as part of The Clean Tech Revolution.

There is much more that could be said. In short the article needs a more balanced perspective. Johnfos 06:44, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Johnfos, I'll admit to favoring nuclear energy as a solution to the problems of pollution and climate change. My intent, though, was to remove a lot of anti-nuclear bias. The article included many anti-nuclear contentions as though they were facts. I can't account for what impressions you got. It's a fact that some critics of anti-nukes have specialized knowledge in the area of nuclear energy. For whatever scientific training they have, neither Lovins or Lowe every worked in that field. Actually, Lovins has never done scientific work since he left college and Lowe has always been an educator. In any event, references to them would belong somewhere other than in the Criticism section.

Part of the anti-nuclear argument is that renewables can render nuclear energy unnecessary. I don't see how the article could be complete with only that position described and no description of the opposing position. Your own position is that renewables are being rapidly commercialized; that's a viewpoint open to challenge, and doesn't address their limitations.

Your basic point is probably right. The subject is contentious, with different contributors adding their own perspectives. Even if a final authority existed, advocates of different viewpoints would still dispute his version. It doesn't hurt to post a disclaimer tag at the top, although most people would approach the article aware of its controversial nature. Actually, a lot of articles deserve that tag, including the ones you referenced. Cde3 17:18, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree this page is pro-nuclear. So lacks NPOV. HybridBoy 17:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So, I re-added the NPOV because there is no consensus. Images are deleted, citations are deleted, Einstein´s reference in history is deleted. This is not a neutral article. --HybridBoy 08:53, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This article contains a chart that shows over half of Europeans favored nuclear energy in 2002. Checking the source shows that is not the result of the poll. This chart has been deleted numerous times by different editors but keeps being restored even though the information is false.

Furthermore, the article contains a quotation from former US VP Gore which is irrelevant to the subject of the article, and is apparently included only to persuade readers to a particular opinion.--Cde3 18:16, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, we've had people go in trying to just put pro-nuclear stuff in at every place they can wedge it, we've also had people do that in the other direction. In order for this to actually be a good article, we need better history and attribution. Like, instead of expanding on the technical information that should be covered elsewhere, include that there are some radicals out there who complete reject the life cycle analysis that shows how much CO2 is emitted. Also, include specific people and what they argue instead of having a "Stances" section.

I think Johnfos has pretty good ideas for it. I'll try to contribute more of the specific ones that I've dealt with. I was trying to do a little of this with the Storm and Smith reference on nuclear power, but I want to have that covered well in this article. -Theanphibian ^{(talk • contribs)} 03:20, 13 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have to admit that I don't know a lot about the Anti-nuclear movement, just what I've picked up in passing on WP. But I would have thought that it was important to mention something about actual groups such as the Abalone Alliance and the Clamshell Alliance, their attempt at a non-violent approach, and the impact they had. And, yes, it is important that we don't reinvent the wheel and end up simply doing another nuclear pros and cons article. We need to focus on the people issues here.

I think its good that editors are coming to the Talk page to discuss these sorts of things. I don't have a lot of time to put in to the article right now but appreciate that you have some ideas Anphibian and would encourage you to make some gradual improvements and discuss things further as needed.

And, as the article progresses, we just need to remember that the WP principle of WP:NPOV requires that we describe competing views without endorsing any one in particular. Johnfos 06:01, 13 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh oh, the one in particular I was thinking of before was Helen Caldicott. In my opinion, a IRL troll. Her claims are Ah-mazing. example video. She is fregin' crazy. People like her definitely need a good amount of space in this article.

For another example, she mentions in that video "there's only one decent study to look at the whole nuclear fuel chain from beginning to end." I haven't read the book, but I'm pretty sure she's talking about the one I was referencing in the nuclear power article. Anyway, I know this is going to show my pro-nuclear stance, but this kind of lie spinning of "all scientific articles except for mine are wrong" is seriously used heavily today and convinces many people this "green anti-nuclear" approach under false pretenses. If you're going to be against something, do it for the right reasons :)

But yeah, I think we have a good discussion going. -Theanphibian ^{(talk • contribs)} 06:50, 13 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I really don't have a problem with the images myself. Protests and stuff are illustrative. What does bother me are the ones that we don't know where they're from. -Theanphibian ^{(talk • contribs)} 09:10, 13 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

they are (were) also located at bizarre places in the article. Also, they are only an illustration of a part of this movement. Not of the lobbying efforts and political activism, frequently financed by other industrial lobbies but give the impression of a more sympathetic "young idealists defending the planet" thing. In that, they are not illustrative, but rather misleading. CyrilleDunant 09:46, 13 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

eh, I think all articles still have a little bit of a right to pretty itself up, and we do have all of this as free media. I'd say allow pictures for a protest is there's some text corresponding to it. The EPR protests are the only ones I can see this working for. If people want to sing songs and act like it's an anti-nuclear protest, then whatever, let 'em. -Theanphibian ^{(talk • contribs)} 01:41, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is you don´t like antinuclear logos and pictures (you deleted a logo and a picture about an anti-nuclear manifestation). But, I and more peoplereally LOVE them. Because of you delete what is nuclear opposing, you got the NPOV tag. On the other hand, the Smiling Sun Logo apperas in http://plarmy.org/zwentendorf/en/index.php/START_ZWENTENDORF , http://www.nuclearpowernothanks.org/, http://nonewnukes.ukrivers.net/index.html , http://www.foe.ie/campaigns/nuclear.html, http://sustainablefuture.mysite.orange.co.uk/smilingsuns.html... --193.145.201.53 09:21, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't deleted any of them. Check it. Do it. -Theanphibian ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:30, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

User:CyrilleDunant has deleted one. I restore it. And we would include a section about antinuclear logos. --HybridBoy 08:27, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

[1] probably has iffy legal status. Can't we have pictures not violating WP policy?CyrilleDunant 08:46, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You are not right. One can upload fair use image. But before delete, one discuss it in the talk page. --Mac 07:01, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't an article about global warming, or about Al Gore, or even about nuclear energy. It's about the anti-nuclear movement. Mr. Gore's opinions are irrelevant. Moreover, if a nuclear opponent made the argument, the counter-argument would also be appropriate, since the denial of panacea status to nuclear energy would be a straw-man argument. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cde3 (talk • contribs) 19:50, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is non-controvertible. The section is "The Anti-Nuclear Movement and Global Warming" main "Global warming", and has in it a quote from Al Gore about nuclear power and global warming. 199.125.109.46 19:55, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Point taken. I'll edit the section slightly; see if you approve.Cde3 19:59, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The original was better. I'm out of reverts for the day but tell your sockpuppeteer that this article is written in commonwealth english, not in American english and to revert this.[2] I see that this still needs to be fixed. They complain about using commonwealth english in a messed up edit that changes the title of the page and uses American english in multiple places? 199.125.109.46 22:15, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I guess we can keep reverting each other's changes, but we ought to be able to come to an agreement. Even if this is a section about global warming, the article is about the movement. This is simply an argument against nuclear energy and should be described as such and put in a context that relates to the subject, and it belongs in the Stances section. On top of that, there should be references to show that anti-nuclear groups agree with Mr. Gore's view.

I think you're saying that anything that relates to global warming can be included here. By that reasoning, we should also include the viewpoints of global-warming skeptics and all the possible ways nuclear energy can reduce greenhouse gases.Cde3 23:03, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please try to keep to commonwealth English. It is -ise, and not ize, and favour and not favor (amongst other). Your edits can be reverted for this sole reason.CyrilleDunant 05:45, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Am I hearing an echo? I'm the one using commonwealth English. 199.125.109.46 21:02, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

When you have a movement, it does not matter if there is one percent of the population behind you or 99 percent. In the former case you have more work to do than in the latter, but it is still a movement. The lead image for this article should be one that is representative of the anti-nuclear movement (golly gee that is the title of this article isn't it?), not a poll that is irrelevant, and erroneous by the way. 199.125.109.46 21:33, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't completely agree with you, but I also don't completely agree with the person who deleted the image. The poll should not stand alone as it is, but if accompanied with other images that were in some way representitive of the anti-nuclear movement, then I believe it contributes to the illustrative value of the article in the same way. IMO, it would be appropriate to contain several images used as PR by organizations opposed to nuclear with clear and direct explanations accompanying them that tell who it is that use them and under what context. In terms of "opinion poll" type stuff, I think a graph over time showing opinion regarding nuclear power and whatnot would be ideal in that it does show a progression of the "anti-nuclear movement". -Theanphibian ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:55, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I didn't see that the previous smiling sun image had been deleted. I would not particularly object to moving or deleting the poll the article stands. -Theanphibian ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:57, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know why the smiling sun was deleted, but that is the most common image for the anti-nuclear movement. The second most common is the flower that says "nuclear power is not healthy for children and other living things". As Theanphibian says, charts are interesting for historical perspective, but not as a main image. And by the way, anyone can edit, that's one of the five pillars of Wikipedia. 199.125.109.58 06:03, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

this logo looks like it has a good bit of usage as well. -Theanphibian ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:01, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I had never seen that one (the hand in front of a nuclear radiation sign), but I see that it is used in Australia a lot, it is prominently displayed on the map of the Australian anti-nuclear movement at http://www.australianmap.net/ 199.125.109.46 (talk) 05:17, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I had seen the hand on the radiation symbol many times before, and had only ever seen the smiling sun a few times outside of this article (recently, not like years ago). And then the other "poster" in the article I had never heard of, couldn't even find on the internet, and still question when it was used and what it's significance. Yet most people who've contributed here seem to think the one they know of it the MAIN one. I'm sure there are more - if you wanted to do this right, there should be a section that describes what logos are used, where, and their significance relative to one another. That's why people use Wikipedia, to get the real story, not some BS propaganda. -Theanphibian ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:37, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

First, polls about the popularity of nuclear energy aren't history. Maybe a new section should be added, possibly about the effectiveness of the movement; otherwise, poll results aren't relevant to the movement, as far as I can tell. Second, the fact that most people don't want a nuclear plant near their homes isn't significant by itself. Most people don't want to live near a coal plant, or a wind farm, or a meat-packing plant, or a wastewater-treatment plant, or just about anything that isn't a home, church, school, or small business. Third, the reference gives conflicting results. The New York poll shows most people oppose nuclear energy but the Los Angeles poll shows the opposite. If poll results are to be presented, there ought to be something more comprehensive than one or two small samples.

In a day or two, I'd like to delete both the remark about a single poll presently in the History section and the pie chart that's been in and out of the article for a couple of weeks. If anyone objects, please comment here. Thanks.Cde3 05:07, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It illustrates the point that this movement is a minority point of view. Which is important for the argument. CyrilleDunant 11:28, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But the article isn't supposed to argue for or against nuclear energy. It's supposed to describe the anti-nuclear movement. If antinuclearism is a minority viewpoint, that information needs more support than one or two polls, and doesn't belong in the History section.Cde3 16:32, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for agreeing to my point of view. I have displaced the poll results to a possibly more adequate position. As for the representativity of polls, you may provide additional contradictory sources demonstrating the non-representativity of this specific instance. CyrilleDunant 20:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I just googled "nuclear energy polls europe." Here are some hits:

• http://www.euractiv.com/en/opinion/majority-europeans-oppose-nuclear-power/article-145003: negative on nuclear
• http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0106/p06s02-woeu.html: negative on nuclear but becoming more positive
• http://www.foratom.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=28&Itemid=1095: positive on nuclear

It seems to me that one poll result is inadequate, and maybe misleading, and a collection of them is confusing. From looking around on the net, it looks as though anti-nukes are spinning the results one way and pro-nukes the other way. Besides, the results depend on the questions asked. For example, if a person says he'd rather get electricity from windpower than nuclear, does that consider the difference in reliability and cost, or is the respondent assuming that everything is equal? If he says there ought to be more nuclear plants, does he mean in addition to renewables and conservation, or instead of them? Or is he comparing nuclear plants to coal-fired ones? In many cases, the answers depend on the questions that came before, and often the results are shown without that information.

I don't want to pick a fight, but I think the article would be better for now without any attempt at showing poll results. If someone could present a thorough exposition of polls along with their historical trends, then it could make sense to include them in an Effectiveness section. On Wednesday, if no one objects strenuously, I'll take them out.--Cde3 00:52, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You have allready done that, and there allready were objections. So stop removing sourced data.CyrilleDunant 05:18, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You do know that this entire thing was prompted by me just inserting a lonely image from the commons right? My problem with what you're linking to here is that they're all just articles and not real... data. If you go through multiple reports of multiple opinion polls on nuclear power, you should find that all comprehensive studies agree on trends over time, by country, and to some extent the general number. example of multiple studies. High in the 70s and 2000s, but lowest around 1990. Also, high in South Korea, Sweden, France, Indonesia, and others generally while the opinion in countries like the US or the UK are highly contestable. There's also a commonly used IAEA report that finds that educated men are the demographic that supports nuclear power the most and that South Korea and Japan are the most informed while France is not well informed - just in case you were curious.

I'm not making this up. There are things that data out there does support, and there should be no problem covering that information in this (or related) articles. And like I said, the chart fit in well until the picture nazis went through. -Theanphibian ^{(talk • contribs)} 04:30, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, as for the other pictures, obviously copyright violations were not going to stay online long...CyrilleDunant 05:18, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

True, but the consensus with the poll stuff seems to be that we don't have comprehensive enough of information, no? -Theanphibian ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:18, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I do not get your point. I believe this poll to be very well as it is. Of course, a more comprehensive history of the popular view of nuclear power would be excellent, but I don't see the point in removing sourced (and relevant) information. CyrilleDunant 13:13, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I added a new section on Poll Results. Anphibian, there was a discrepancy in the chart. The label showed 2005 but the reference showed 2002. I changed the chart since it differed from Eurobarometer's 2005 results. If I did wrong, please correct it as needed and accept my regrets.--Cde3 19:03, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Editing Notes: "Approval ratings of nuclear energy, which are a reflection of the anti-nuclear movement's position prevalence in the general public, vary from poll to poll. " This isn't grammatical, and it's not clear what you're trying to say.

It is perfectly "grammatical". It also exhibits correct grammar: (object), (incised qualification), (verb) (complement). CyrilleDunant 05:50, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"The general image of nuclear power is to be distinguished from the perception of the risks" True though this may be, the polling results that follow don't support the conclusion. The results only have significance if their context is described. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cde3 (talk • contribs) 20:20, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well it wasn't me who wrote those, but good luck getting them cleared up. -Theanphibian ^{(talk • contribs)} 00:50, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Note on pie chart that's been in and out and moved around: The poll does not show that European sentiments were 2:1 in favor of nuclear energy. The question asked was, " if all the waste is managed safely, nuclear power should remain an option for electricity production in the European Union" --agree or disagree? The results were: Strongly agree 14.9% Tend to agree 35.6% Tend to disagree 15.1% Strongly disagree 10.4% Average 2.72% Don’t know 24.2%

To leave out the qualifier misrepresents the results. Elsewhere in the same reference, 68.6% of the respondents said they were at least fairly worried about nuclear wastes at the national level and 70.1% were at least fairly worried about waste handling in other EU countries.--Cde3 01:17, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Very well, then change the legend, do not remove the chart... Not also that the chart illustrates then the point I was making and which you edited out.CyrilleDunant 05:50, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I see no reason for you liking the chart. It is quite misleading to have only one chart. Somewhere I saw a set of about 10 charts showing varying views toward nuclear power around Europe. Even that is too limited. What about the rest of the world? This article is about a movement, not about the success of that movement, which is only tangential to the article. 199.125.109.58 23:41, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

this is what we currently have, made by hard working wikipedians like yourself. Feel free to create more media or use these to your hearts content. Any other problems? -Theanphibian ^{(talk • contribs)} 03:52, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings, a word from a bored Wikimedia Commons admin:

I see that an awful lot of images in violation of copyright are uploaded on Commons, apparently in order to illustrate this article. So let me explain: Reproducing a poster, image or logo by trivial photography does not constitute an original work. If you go around and start taking photographs of promotional posters in the street, the copyright of the poster holds, and you are not entitled to licence your photograph as you please. The very same applies to antinuclear posters.

In order to have something of the sort on Wikimedia Commons, I suggest that someone contacts the makers of a proeminent logo or poster and require that the author licence their work under the CC-by-sa, CC-by, Public Domain or GFDL (Tip: terms like "licenced under XXX for Wikipedia" is not acceptable on Commons and will get erased, so word your request appropriately so that someone ignorant of licencing matters does not void his own licence by mistake, and make certain that he understands what he is signing for). After recieving the mail, forward it to the OTRS at permissions@wikimedia.org

I am sorry to have to say that unless you prove that the images are not in violation of copyright, they will be deleted on sight. If you have questions, you can ask them on Commons Village pump, on my talk page, or on IRC, among other things. Thank you for your understanding. Rama 09:56, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That shouldn't have been uploaded to the commons as it is a political poster. It has been reduced in resolution and uploaded as a fair-use image for this article. I wouldn't call one image "an awful lot of images". Cheapthrill 19:16, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Neither would I. Sixteen, on the other hand, is clearly too many. Rama 19:22, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Don´t worry. You only have one. Other reasons was these images were irrelevant. There are a lot of excuses to truncate plurality. By the way, Spaniards don´t like nuclear power plants. --Mac 06:58, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There were about 16 images uploaded on Commons in disregard or ignorance of legality, which is the only thing I care about in this framework. Your insinuations and political exaggerations are irrelevant and an insult to your intelligence. Rama 10:09, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article was reviewed and determined to be neutrally presented. I am surprised that you wish to add the NPOV tag and add the POV statement about Gore. What's up? There is no reason for having the NPOV tag. The article accurately presents the anti-nuclear movement, and includes a large section on criticism of the movement (recently renamed to avoid the confusion that it was criticism about nuclear power instead of criticism about the movement). The goal of WP is to write NPOV articles, even about controversial subjects, which this is not. Nuclear technology is controversial, but not the anti-nuclear movement. You may or may not like them, I may or may not like them, but that doesn't mean that we can't write about them in a neutral manner. This article needs to be just a factual representation of the subject. Two months ago this article was written as though it was written by the pro-nuclear movement and was totally NPOV. That has been corrected, with the exception of the questionable graph showing European support for nuclear, which has been marked as dubious, which is fine, and does not make the article NPOV.

What, specifically remains in the article that is NPOV? Please remove it or edit it to correct it. Since you put up the tag, Cde3, it is your obligation to explain why you think the article is NPOV, and if you can not do that, it will be removed. Saying that "Omitting it distorts the history of the movement" is just poppy-cock. What are the most contentious subjects on Wikipedia? Abortion? Nuclear power? Intelligent design? Global warming? None of them have NPOV tags. Why? Because we don't write articles that are NPOV. This article is no exception. 199.125.109.46 (talk) 18:54, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have repeatedly explained what's wrong with this article, and repeatedly corrected it, and Cyrilledunnant simply, repeatedly, and peremptorily reverted my corrections. I would gladly ask for mediation, but the rules say that two or more people have to complain. Since I'm the only complainant, all I can do is keep the NPOV tag in place.

The anti-nuclear movement is indeed a controversial subject. Nuclear opponents think they can walk on water and are incapable of error. Nuclear advocates think opponents are both misinformed and devious. By my reckoning, nuclear technology is not controversial at all; it simply is misrepresented in the popular media because of the irresponsible conduct of the opponents. There are many articles in Wikipedia that deserve the NPOV tag; its absence in them does not qualify this article as neutral.

I can accept that some pro-nuclear information was added before that could show bias in the article. Since I'm pro-nuclear I would just consider it to be objective, but I haven't protested when it was altered. But now irrelevant material is being added for the purpose of persuading readers for or against nuclear energy. That is blatantly against the neutral-POV principle. Gore's quotation doesn't belong in the article because he's not part of the anti-nuclear movement, and pointing out his monetary motivation is only a feeble effort to put the quotation in context. I don't think putting a Dubious tag on the pie chart is nearly adequate. The chart isn't dubious, it's demonstrably false. I tried to remove it before and you-know-who just reverted it. Is there a False tag? Anyway, ordinary readers will see the chart and conclude that Europeans are wild for nuclear and won't take the trouble to look it up in the discussion, and it would be hard to find there anyway. Note that the chart is pro-nuclear, but I object to it anyway.

Omitting the part about some environmentalists favoring nuclear energy leaves the reader with the impression that all environmentalists oppose nuclear energy; in the context of history it would mean that it was a founding principle of environmentalism, even though in reality it was smuggled in by ideologues who had their own agenda and has been a point of contention ever since. Poppycock is in the eye of the beholder.Cde3 (talk) 20:07, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You may need to review the information on editing articles that you have a personal interest in at WP:COI. This article should not have anything to do with persuading readers either for nuclear or against, but simply factual statements about the movement. I do not see anywhere in the article that they think that they can walk on water and are incapable of error. It would be unlikely for anyone to be able to find a WP:RS that made either of those statements. The article does indicate that nuclear advocates think opponents are misinformed, which is how we create an NPOV article, by presenting both sides of the subject. As to devious, feel free to look for a reliable source. I doubt that you will find one. The NPOV tag does not mean that someone disagrees with the point of view of the group that the article is about, it means that the article is a piece of junk that needs to be re-written in an encyclopedic manner. "The neutral point of view is a point of view that is neutral, that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject." As I said before, if you can't remove or edit the parts that are poorly written, I'm removing the tag. By the way, why would there be an "anti-nuclear movement" if no one thought that nuclear technology was controversial? 199.125.109.46 (talk) 22:15, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I looked at the COI rules and I'm clear: no conflicts. I have a strong POV but not a COI. The RS rules are a little tricker; they require:

• The material has been thoroughly vetted by the scholarly community. This means published in peer-reviewed sources, and reviewed and judged acceptable scholarship by the academic journals.
• Items that are recommended in scholarly bibliographies are preferred.
• Items that are signed are more reliable than unsigned articles because it tells whether an expert wrote it and took responsibility for it.

Very little of the article complies with these rules. From what I can tell, it started simply enough but then anti-nuclear premises were added by nuclear opponents. Some others, including me, made some corrections. It's possible that in trying to make the article objective I added biased information in favor of nuclear energy. So I would agree that there are many RS problems with the article, but they've been there for a long time.

Whether or not water-walking claims are presented in the article, the subject of the article is controversial. Self-adulation has always been a defining feature of anti-nuclear groups. Here are quotes from some of the majors' websites:

Sierra Club: "We use law, science and the support of 1.2 million members and online activists to protect the planet's wildlife and wild places and to ensure a safe and healthy environment for all living things."

Friends of the Earth: "Friends of the Earth defends the environment and champions a healthy and just world."

Natural Resources Defense Council: "We use law, science and the support of 1.2 million members and online activists to protect the planet's wildlife and wild places and to ensure a safe and healthy environment for all living things."

Public Citizen: "We fight for openness and democratic accountability in government, for the right of consumers to seek redress in the courts; for clean, safe and sustainable energy sources; for social and economic justice in trade policies; for strong health, safety and environmental protections; and for safe, effective and affordable prescription drugs and health care."

See? Nothing about back-room deals and nest-feathering by executives. I don't see any difference between their self-praise and believing they can walk on water. To know what really happens in the big environmental groups that oppose nuclear energy, read Losing Ground: American Environmentalism at the Close of the Twentieth Century by Mark Dowie.

When nuclear advocates talk, the startling dishonesty of nuclear opponents is a frequent topic. Here's an example from Environmentalists for Nuclear Energy's website: "It is difficult to attribute the anti-nuclear position of the greens to ignorance. We have spoken briefly with one of their principal science advisors following his public statement that "we must reduce the emission of carbon dioxide by all means possible"; We asked him whether that included nuclear energy, and he quietly said 'We're not all stupid.' His smile was almost audible over the telephone wire." The point here isn't that nuclear opponents lie (they do, but that's not the point). The point is that nuclear advocates claim they do. That makes the anti-nuclear movement controversial.

No, it doesn't make it controversial. It's like if I have a fight with someone over something, the fight is the controversy, the fact that I am having a fight is non-controversial. In the same manner, the controversy is between the pro-nukes and the anti-nukes about nukes, meaning that the nuke article is controversial, not the fact that they disagree, which is non-controversial. Your introduction of controversy about the article is controversial because criticism of the movement is already amply covered, and there is no reason to treat the subject as controversial. You didn't say whether he thought that the pro-nukes are stupid or the anti-nukes are stupid in the above statement, but you did imply that one was. Clearly everyone in the anti-nuclear movement would regard pro-nukes as stupid, and pro-nukes would regard anti-nukes as stupid. Do you see that that is non-controversial? 199.125.109.58 15:31, 30 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We're arguing a point outside the question of whether the article is neutral. You challenged me to show that the anti-nuclear movement is controversial, so that's what I did. I do not think nuclear opponents are stupid. I think the original leaders spread misinformation about nuclear energy to serve the cause of lowering material consumption, especially in advanced countries. That's covered in the history part of the article. I think the followers of the movement have accepted the misinformation because they didn't take the time to check it, and because it conformed to their ideological prejudices. In all of the anti-nuclear propaganda I have seen, pro-nukes are accused not of being stupid or misinformed, not of having tangential motives, but of being manifestly evil.(Cde3)19:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

You haven't convinced me that the article is about a controversial subject. The article is about a group of people who take a particular POV. What is controversial about that? The article is not about what the issue of nuclear power, it is about a group who takes a position about nuclear power. The word "evil" appears no where in the article, and once again, I think you would have a hard time finding a reliable source that said that they thought that. 199.125.109.58 00:36, 1 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't care if you're convinced or not. I've been following this subject for forty years and I can tell you the term "evil" gets tossed in by the true believers whenever they're low on histrionic adjectives. Your position that the anti-nuclear movement isn't controversial is absurd on its face, and it's not my job to convince someone whose mind is totally closed of anything.(Cde3)Cde3 01:31, 1 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you can find a reliable source that uses the word evil feel free to add it to the article. You still don't seem to see the difference between what the movement stands for and the fact that there is a movement. The facts of the movement are completely non-controversial. And that is what the article is about, not an argument for or against nuclear technology, which is obviously controversial, even though to you it is completely non-controversial; for whatever reason, no one in the anti-nuclear movement would agree with you, which is the definition of controversial. You have previously tried to add information that could have been controversial, for example that most environmentalists are pro-nuclear today, which isn't controversial at all, it is flat out false. 199.125.109.58 04:54, 1 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I looked and couldn't find a basis for your remark, "The NPOV tag does not mean that someone disagrees with the point of view of the group that the article is about, it means that the article is a piece of junk that needs to be re-written in an encyclopedic manner." Where does that come from? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cde3 (talk • contribs) 20:05, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

One of the five pillars of Wikipedia is NPOV, writing articles from a neutral point of view. Using the word junk was a euphemism for it should be discarded and not included. The NPOV tag is a flag that a flagrant violation of NPOV exists and needs to be corrected, which is why I took a look at the article. Tell you what, I'll give you one week to fix the article in an NPOV manner or I'm removing the tag. 199.125.109.58 14:22, 30 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As I mentioned earlier, I have repeatedly fixed the article in an NPOV manner and all the fixes were reverted by CyrilleDunant. The article continues to lose its neutrality as bumper-sticker slogans are added. At the rate the article is being degraded it soon will be junk. You can remove the NPOV tag as many times as you like, but it probably would be more productive to enter dispute resolution.(Cde3)Cde3 19:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have anything to dispute, if you wish to duke it out with your counterpart Cde dup, have at it. It's a little surprising that you say you have a strong POV, but have fixed the article in an NPOV manner. My question, is how would you know, given your "strong POV"? However, there is one easy way to fix the article, ask for others to edit it. 199.125.109.58 00:36, 1 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you just skimmed through this. I made the same point at least twice. Of course it's possible my corrections might have added bias to the article. That's why I haven't protested when my humble additions were modified. But when editors add bumper-sticker slogans and irrelevant quotations, obviously to promote a particular viewpoint, that's something to protest.(Cde3)Cde3 01:31, 1 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In answer to your last question, the only reason there is an anti-nuclear movement is that the original opponents, for reasons they don't advertise but haven't hidden, distorted the facts to suit their agenda and persuaded the popular media to cooperate.Cde3 (talk) 19:55, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm aware of your POV, but it doesn't seem to be shared by any reliable sources, so I would ask you to keep it to yourself. The world is full of conspiracy theories, and yours is just yet another. 199.125.109.58 14:22, 30 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know why you're lecturing me. I simply answered your question. Since you feel free to give me advice, I'll return the favor all in the spirit of the holidays: If you don't want your questions answered don't ask them.

It would be helpful if you'd sign your comments.(Cde3)19:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Template:RFCpol Please review this article and remove anything that is not NPOV, or at least not balanced to include all majority points of view. 199.125.109.58 00:36, 1 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you look at the data in the article, it appears that while the 2002 data may have been accurate it is outdated, because the more recent data shows much lower approval percentages. 199.125.109.46 (talk) 22:49, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Have you looked at the reference for the graph below it? Not only do we have data from 2000 for that one, but the document isn't in English. Regarding your statement "more recent data shows much lower approval percentages," the graphs were made in good faith and used the well known Eurobarometer data. I don't believe that you actually saw data that supports that. -Theanphibian ^{(talk • contribs)} 02:11, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's a graph of data from Spain, which is why the data is in Spanish. I don't know what you mean by 2000, the pdf file says the data was taken in June of 2007. I don't speak Spanish, but I used Google to translate it into English.[3] I think Mac speaks Spanish. The article says 37% approval in Europe in 2005, the chart clearly showed over 50% approval in 2002, making it either questionable or outdated or both. Través de 2000 entrevistas does not mean, in the year 2000, it means "Through 2000 interviews" according to Google translation, meaning that 2,000 people were interviewed. The next sentence, "Los trabajos de campo se llevaron a cabo en junio de 2007" means "The fieldwork was carried out in June 2007." As I have said before, the size of support is not important. It's still a movement whether there is 1% support or 99% support. Now if no one supports it, well then it wouldn't be a movement, but to call it a movement only needs about 1% support, or not even that, which in the US would be over a million people, and would be a huge movement. I don't think the anti-nuclear movement in the US can claim to have ever been that big. The biggest rallies I ever heard about only had maybe 30,000. The biggest Shoreham rally, outside New York City apparently had 17,000.[4] That doesn't mean that more didn't support the movement, but being a part of a movement and supporting what it stands for are totally different. 199.125.109.46 (talk) 03:22, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh I see, you may be right about the Spanish pdf, but I unfortunately still can not figure out how to make Google Translate work for a pdf file. But yes, I did interpret that 2000 as the year and it may be more recent that I thought. What report are you referring to regarding the pie chart? Do you have a link? More information (and discussion) needs to go on the Wikipedia Commons page. -Theanphibian ^{(talk • contribs)} 04:31, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This version of the page [5] has a chart showing over 50% support in Europe while the article says differently. That chart has been replaced with the USA chart which agrees more closely with the article. Save the pdf file, open it in Acrobat reader, export it to text, open the text file, and cut and paste the Spanish into Google. Google stops translating after a while so you have to repeat several times for a large file like this one, but the first section includes the relevant data. Even Mac thought the data was 2006, when it is actually this year. 199.125.109.46 (talk) 05:11, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What does "the article" refer to? -Theanphibian ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:57, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"the article" refers to "this article", an article about the "anti-nuclear movement". 199.125.109.58 14:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]