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My initial proposal appears to have been overrun by hispanic users and anti-British users wishing to add extreme minority titles or retain the full title translation.

We should not translate the title. This is sensible War is not a Spanish word and Guerra is not an English word. It makes sense to mention an alternative pronoun for the Islands, however.

I once again, therefore, propose changing the heading to:

The Falklands War was fought in 1982 between Argentina and the United Kingdom over the Falkland Islands (or Malvinas), South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands. The Falkland Islands consist of two large and many small islands in the South Atlantic Ocean east of Argentina, whose ownership had long been disputed. (See Sovereignty of the Falkland Islands for the background to that dispute.)

Could we discuss this proposal and not Malvinas War, or Falklands/Malvinas War which we can do separately if you want.

I don't feel the current full title into Spanish is appropriate -- it's never used in English speech. --BadWolf42 22:53, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

• To state that editors who argue against your POV are "hispanic users and anti-British users" is assuming bad faith and also leaves you open to accusation of being pro-British - this site should be neither!

Also 30,000 ghits for "Malvinas War" does not equate to "extreme minority titles". As a compromise I would agree not to change the title for not and to use your title intro with one addition of the "Malvinas War" after the Falklands War which still gives Falklands promenance over Malvinas - I propose -

The Falklands War or Malvinas War was fought in 1982 between Argentina and the United Kingdom over the Falkland Islands (or Malvinas), South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands. The Falkland Islands consist of two large and many small islands in the South Atlantic Ocean east of Argentina, whose ownership had long been disputed. (See Sovereignty of the Falkland Islands for the background to that dispute.)

Now that is a very fair compromise and the minimum I would suggest without bringing this article to a Mediation Cabal with the mediator being non British or Argentine.--Vintagekits 23:05, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's pretty clear that the majority of users on this talkpage are opposed to the idea. The term "Malvinas War" is one I have never heard or seen before and that is most likely true for the vast majority of the visitors to this page. NJW494 23:24, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) There is absolutely nothing wrong with users expressing their POV on this talk page, on the other hand we dont want it in the article. I thus support Bad Wolf's version and agree with NJW494's comments. I disagree that we should have mediation from a non Brit or non Argentine, such a comment hovers near rascism (while not being so). IMO Sebastian, Argentine in the US, and me, Brit in Spanish Central America, are probably the most genuinely neutral participants in this case and we neither of us support VintageKite's proposal, SqueakBox 23:42, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well if you live in Britain or are British then I would not be surprised! But this would suggest otherwise - I have already stated that I would accept as a compromise that it not be put in the title but you are push the British POV to far by not accepting the compromised intro that I have suggested.--Vintagekits 23:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Your compromise is not a real compromise. It is not worth including in this article, has no mainstream recognition and has no encyclopaedic benefit. I have little option but to consider that your Irish republicanism plays some part in this crusade of yours.NJW494 23:48, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually it is a massive comprise by #not pushing for the Malvinas to be in the title and #allowing Falklands first. So I think it is a MASSIVE consession. The article is Sooooo pro British it is unreal - Malvinas and Malvinas War are common terms in the English language and especially in Ireland for example shown here in the Irish national broadcaster and here the Irish Government which shows that Malvinas is listed and the official term for the islands here and is given promence over Falklands. Last time I noticed we were an English speaking country - this shows the blatant anti-Argentinian and pro-British bias shown here. If there is no serious comprimise put forward it will be brought mediation to get Malvinas put into the main title because this is too pro British imo--Vintagekits 00:01, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I dont oppose mediation in itself. Yours is not a massive compromise as you have no chance of getting Malvinas into the title anyway, regardless of how passionately you feel that is the correct format. I remain convinced even mediation wont begin to give you what you want. Th first of your 2 links doesnt argue your case and while the second does we already have concluded it is a minority POV, hence the section at the bottom, thus even if it is so that Ireland people call it the Falklands/Malvinas War we have already included this POV and dont need to do so further, SqueakBox 00:08, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

BTW neither of your links gives prominence to the Malvinas as a aname and the first does quite the opposite and implies thta Ireland people say Falklands just like Brits do, SqueakBox 00:10, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually the RTE link states "known here as the Malvinas" and the Irish Government states Malvinas before Falklands ie. "Malvinas/Falkland Islands" - how is this IRisdh POV if your view is not British POV??? That smacks of blatant bias and pro-British slant - whcih the article is riddled with imo--Vintagekits 00:20, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Provide the evidence for this, Vintage. In any case, my google search proves which is the mroe common. Logoistic 00:58, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just lost a load to an edit conflict!

English language google has by far more hits for "Falklands War" than "Guerra de las Malvinas", and vice versa for the Spanish language google. Thus, "Falklands War" should take precedent over "Guerra de las Malvinas", although the latter deserves a mention. Note that the Spanish language Wikiepdia article on "Guerra de las Malvinas" (Falklands War redirects there) not suprisingly uses the Spanish term. I think mentioning "Guerra de las Malvinas" as it is currently is fine. In fact, I'm going to be bold and edit the Spanish version to do the same thing - "Guerra de las Malvinas" taking priority but "(en ingles: Falklands War) being mentioned in the opening sentance too.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerra_de_las_Malvinas

Logoistic 00:16, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good on you. I have done so twice already. See Argentine Navy for more of the same, SqueakBox 00:19, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

At Battle of the Bulge we translate this term into German but we dont call it the Unternehmen War (apologies if my German is incorrect), and I bet there isnt a single modern battle between English and non English speaking forces where we do this, so why make an exception for the Falklands War, SqueakBox 01:55, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I think you have done your arguement a lot more harm than good with this one - that article shows the foriegn language name and the 3 alternative English names - that sets a precident to have the two English names and the Spanish name in the article!--Vintagekits 02:02, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just a quick comment from someone not interested in getting involved in the arguments, but I think you'll need to follow the example set by Battle of the Bulge if your going to get Falklands War upto FA status. --Kind Regards - Heligoland ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 02:05, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sure and we can indeed add the Spanish name (I am not opposed to that) and probably more pro it having seen the Bulge example, and add the other common English term Falklands Conflict. Will you forget that you are making a big compromise by not changing the name of the article as that clearly doesnt happen at the Bulge or any other battle. And Heliogland is right that we need to see what wikipedia is doing with other battles and wars if we are serious in our intention to make for a better article, SqueakBox 02:11, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As I've stated elsewhere, a term is only 'neutral' because an accepted viewpoint is reached. Every position is a POV. In the case of the Battle of the Bulge I would expect little opposition to not using its German name alternately because there are very few who would support the cause of the Nazi side. On the other hand, for the Falklands there is opposition to the use of the term 'Falklands', be it among Argentines, or even the likes of others such as Irish Republicans (presumably as they see a parallel with NI). In this case we must accomodate these views into a new viewpoint different from The Battle of the Bulge example. I think the translation to Spanish is acceptable, as well as using 'Falklands/Malvinas War' in certain limited contexts such as in an article on the Argentine navy. Logoistic 02:21, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

IMO its either okay to use in all articles or none, we still have to follow NPOV whatever the article and nobody is seriously claiming Argentinians, who are for the most part Spanish speakers, say Falklands/Malvinas War, they say guerra de las Malvinas, SqueakBox 02:51, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Who said, Argentinians say "Falklands/Malvinas War" - I am saying many English speaking people use the term--Vintagekits 03:01, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, Logistic and I were getting sidetracked. I thought you claimed people use Malvinas War, I cant beleive there are people who arent politicians in public who use Falklands/Malvinas, thast sounds more obscure than Malvinas War, SqueakBox 03:04, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The truth is that "Malvinas War" is a fringe term used by fringe groups and with little popular English language support. It is already a concession to allow a Spanish language name into the title. Extreme minority viewpoints do not generally have much currency on wikipedia, as some parts of society hold views that are in total conflict with the mainstream and often considered offensive to the mainstream. This is one such case. NJW494 10:30, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

One swallow does not a summer make. Examples of conflict where a direct translation is not given:

Vietnam War -- Gulf War -- World War I -- World War II -- Spanish Civil War -- Spanish-American War -- Russo-Japanese War -- Polish-Ukrainian War -- Anglo-Iraqi War

Examples where an alternative name is given, but with lesser prominence.

Korean War -- Mexican Revolution

I gave up looking at this point.--BadWolf42 11:04, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Those examples are irrelevant, due as I already mention a hundred times there is not a dispute in their names convention!!! The international accepted name of the islands is Falklands/Malvinas please shut down your nationalism a second and check UN, ISO, CIA , ... Jor70 11:16, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think so, Jor, certainly not in any capacity similar to, say, Trinidad & Tobago. I think it is pretty much a consensus that it is very unusual (except perhaps in the most diplomatic of environments) to actually call the Islands "Falklands/Malvinas". One or the other, definitely, yes, and I believe there are even some people who freely alternate between the two names, but combining them together is simply not usual except in situations where there is a clear and strong desire to not emphasize one of the names over the other (such as UN and ISO - I am not at all certain about CIA). That might look like a case of NPOV, but it isn't; this is the English language Wikipedia, after all, and not some equal-language-rights Wiki. NPOV is no reason to avoid the declared prefered language of this Wiki, especially so when there is a fully functional Spanish language sister Wiki. Luis Dantas 21:13, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please source your claim Jor because I for one absolutely do not acceptt hat Falklands/Malvinas is the normal English. As NJW rightly points out it is an extreme minority and offensive to the majority view to call it either Falklands/Malvinas war or Malvinas War, its not done for other battles and if we did it here we would be playing into Argentinian nationalism and anti-Brit sentimnent, SqueakBox 16:31, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Exactly- the formal name is the Falkland Islands. The offical Spanish translation being Islas Falklands (as used in Spanish language EU documents for example). It is called Islas Malvinas by the majority of native Spanish speakers as they generally support the POV of Argentina's claim. In any case the different names are already mentioned on the Falkland Islands page- the most appropiate article for this. Astrotrain 17:01, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

For goodness sake, are users who want nothing less than a full Argentinian interpretation of the event going to be able to veto changes to this article forever?

Luis and Astro are spot-on. The dispute is over the name of the islands, not of the war.

Argentina never legally posessed the islands, never populated the islands and never had popular support for soverignty on the islands. They are called the Falklands in English.

Argentinian supporters and anti-British users need to accept that whilst their minority POV can be represented in the name of the Falkland Islands there really is no justification for re-naming the liberation operation. --BadWolf42 04:33, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

• I am going to re-enter the alternate English language names outlined above unless there is a very strong agrument against this (one which does not invlove purely POV and WP:IDONTLIKEIT--Vintagekits 16:10, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are already alternative names at [[1]], is your alternative name there? Necessary Evil 21:23, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Like other wars this should be in the opening sentance.--Vintagekits 21:25, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Last call!--Vintagekits 11:28, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, this seems to be starting again. We now have an NPOV tag on the [[2]] section, for reasons I don't understand. For me the use of the word "commonly" in the opening gambit seems a touch wrong too, "also known as" would suffice, to my mind. Back to the plot - what's POV in that section? LeeG 22:40, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The non neutral POV tag is because of the wording of the section which makes out that only looney commie nutters use the terms Malvinas War - which is bull. As for alternate wars use of alternate names a good example to look at would be the Irish War of Independence - this show the main name = Irish War of Independence, the colloquil (sp?) Irish name = the Tan War and the British name = the Anglo-Irish War.--Vintagekits 22:47, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Looking at the example; that does away with "commonly" I note. The cites (numbered 2-6 for the opening statement) are interesting, two from books (neither of which I have read, are they any good?), one from a (no offence to Ray Griffin, who I assume not to be this gentleman) random contributor to a BBC bulletin board, and two from left wing websites. That does not justify "loony commie nutters" but there is a left wing bias there - 40% clear left wing, and I would not dare to pretend to know the others' political leanings. These cites are repeated, in part, for the last section. So, I can understand the use of the phrase "occasionally used by left-wing activists", but not the use of "commonly" in the opening. I assume, therefore, "commonly" can be deleted to be comparable to the Irish War of Independence? LeeG 23:45, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We can do away with the "commonly" also if you wish. I added the Ray Griffin quote for three reasons 1. Its was from the BBC and no British editor could quibble with that, 2. Ray Griffin in just an ordinary guy and not representing any group and 3. He is based not British and therefore it show common usage outside of the British sphere. But if we remove the commonly it should be added to stop Squakbox's and his edit war.--Vintagekits 20:58, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, I am not too sure that Mr Griffin is a reliable resource, but I see your point there. I don't understand the last bit "But if we remove the commonly it should be added to stop Squakbox's and his edit war." I think I'm missing something as that reads to me "if we remove 'commonly', we must add 'commonly'" which I don't follow, sorry. Trust me, I have no desire to get into an edit war, so I'll have a thorough read here to try and see what the squabble was. Thanks for the reply! LeeG 22:47, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am not saying he is a reliable source himself, but his use of the phrase is quoted by a reliable source and it shows "common usage" which is what some editors are asking for. What I was also saying is that I am fine with the term "commonly" being removed.--Vintagekits 23:04, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've been asked to revisit this, so I have had a re-read of the article, and the debate. I think the current text is fine, given the references cited. This is because:

• The references at the start of the section refer to Falklands/Malvenas war, which seems to have more usage than "Malvenas War";
• The reference given for the term "Malvenas War" is from the "League for the Revolutionary Party" website. I am guessing that is left-wing. It too co-opts the word into its own text ("war for the Malvinas (Falkland) Islands") just reversing the order from what seems the norm.
• The fact that one gentleman uses the phrase on a BBC website does not demonstrate common usage to me (I can't find that link now to see if he uses Malvenas or Falklands/Malvenas)

In short - the current references indicate that the phrase "Malvenas War" is used by left wing Britons, and we lack any references to show other uses as a phrase in isolation (i.e. not as "Falklands/Malvenas war"). This, to my mind, makes the article read consistently with its references as it stands. It needs no change from here. LeeG 00:53, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So do you suggest 1. the we ingore the leftist term for the war just because its leftist. Anyway its not only leftists that use it. I am sure you can pick out a few links from the 50,000 of google that will satisfy your requirement. I think it is a disgrace to wiki that the only version of the Wars name that is whitewashed from the article is the Malvinas. --Vintagekits 01:00, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, we already have "(Spanish: Guerra de las Malvinas/Guerra del Atlántico Sur)" right at the start. That is as NPOV as we could be. End of story. --Guinnog 01:19, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect - this still ignores the FACT, the frickin indisputable FACT that many people in the English language called the Falklands wars either 1. the Malvinas War or 2. the Falklands/Malvinas War. Now in the article we have every other frickin name that is used in the English language but not the ones that involve the use of the Malvinas - WHY? I'll tell you - British POV, British propaganda, British whitewashing - until this is sorted the POV tag stays. Ignoring this issue doesnt make it go away.--Vintagekits 01:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(deindent)I don't agree, and I don't agree to your holding the article hostage like this, against what seems to be consensus. However I can also see you feel strongly about it. I suggest walking away from it for a few hours; I plan to do the same. --Guinnog 01:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What do you not argee with? I disagree with you accusation that I am holding this article as a hostage - infact the opposite is true - this article being held hostage by British editors like you. Can you put forward an agrument why the term Malvinas War should be whitewashed and all other alternate names should stay thats justifies your argument to disagree?.--Vintagekits 01:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't. As I pointed out above it is there, as the Spanish name, which is what it is. It is already mentioned too under the Names section. What more could you possibly want? --Guinnog 03:53, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Re: 50,000 Google hits; a quick perusal down the top few hits show them all to use the phrase "Falklands/Malvenas War" (mentioned in the article) not "Malvenas War" hence the article is correct as it stands. LeeG 10:04, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly - both names - both the Malvinas War and the Falkland/Malvinas War should be highted in the lead section. The term Malvinas is not just used in the Spanish language but also in the English language and therefore should be represented as such.--Vintagekits 10:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's the exact opposite. "Falklands/Malvenas War" is in the google list, I did not spot "Malvenas War" in isolation (i.e. without an attendant "Falklands". Hence it's not common, hence it belongs where it is. The article deals with it correctly. LeeG 10:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

SOrry I didnt understand that Lee. regards--Vintagekits 10:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

<unindent> I don't think I am able to say it any clearer either. Not that it will stop me trying... The phrase Falklands/Malvenas War is dealt with in the right place, as it is a MINORITY viewpoint (see Google Hits discussion below). Even more of a minority viewpoint is the phrase "Malvenas War" (in fact I struggled from the 50,000 hits (I have not read them all, just perused the first few pages) to find the phrase in non Wiki mirrors and the cited website). NPOV says not to give undue weight, and we don't - the balance is right. Furthermore, adding every possible name permutation between English and Spanish in the opening paragraph makes it unreadable. The opening has the Spanish and English names, it needs no further confusion. I think I can no longer contribute new material to the debate, so I will sign off and say "Leave it how it is, the balance is right, and the text is legible". LeeG 21:49, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just for the record; Vintagekits wrote Malvinas with an I, LeeG wrote Malvenas with an E, are you guys googling the same words?? --Necessary Evil 22:10, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's my bad typing! I used the link helpfully given above by Vintagekits to do the Google hits reading. LeeG 22:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry I missed the recent peer review, having been absent from Wikipedia at the time. Otherwise I would have added the following comments there:

The main weakness in the article is the very poor coverage of the opposition to the war at the time. This includes the initial decision to go to war, the Peruvian peace plan, the controversies over the sinking of the Belgrano, and several other matters. My main reason for getting a Wikipedia account was to improve this aspect of the article, as I was so appalled by the current version. I then realised I would have to re-read all my books on the war (I have most of the books in the Bibliography), but it took me several days just to find them, not having read them for over 20 years! I also need to get hold of some of the more recent references, particularly where they conflict with my references. All this is going to take time, although I have taken the opportunity to make some small improvements in the meantime.

Anyway, this is just a notice of a weakness that badly needs to be addressed. I hope to be able to do it myself some time in the future, when I am able to, if no-one else does it first.

I regard this deficiency as much more serious than, for instance, the discussion over "Falklands" and "Malvinas" (FWIW I think the current version has it about right).

The other main point worth mentioning is that there is some useful information from both the German and Spanish wikis that could also be brought into this article.

--NSH001 17:01, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good, and to hear from the oppostion in both countries to the war would be very useful, SqueakBox 17:06, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I join wikipedia when I found this article. At the time [3] it was just a whole pure british point of view . Since then I try to mix some argentines thoughts , sometimes with success but most of the times being acussed of doing argentine revisionism of the war just because the facts where not listed in a BBC site. Jor70 18:58, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you have any concrete examples please bring them here to discuss. Personally my only interest is an NPOV article that doesnt take sides and we can certainly use reliable sources in Spanish, SqueakBox 19:23, 12 January 2007 (UTC) SqueakBox 19:23, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

For the beginning, the performance of the Argentine Air Force FAA is despised, whilest we are talking about the efforts of the Royal Navy, the british pilots skills, etc , throught all the article

I think any new information surrounding the war would be excellent. Unfortunately there isn't much to say about British domestic opposition other than to comment on minority working class leftist politics (ie those of Mirror readers) or of protests of BELGRANO's sinking other than to mention they happened. Sadly, neither of these stand up to cross-referenced scrutiny, and so to donate extensive article-space to them would be to proffer their POV.--BadWolf42 04:16, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

There is actually a huge amount that could be said about opposition to the war (the bibliography is a good place to start). As a matter of historical fact, the Mirror did not oppose the war (backing the Labour Party line instead); the two newspapers clearly opposed to the war were the Guardian and the Financial Times. The Telegraph's letter pages, as I vividly remember from the time, were full of letters from former military types stating their opposition on pragmatic grounds.

--NSH001 13:41, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well lets see what you come up with then we can discuss it or not as the case may be (only edits where there is disagreement need discussing). It would also be great to see Argentinian opposition to the war, indeed for NPOV purposesd the 2 should sit side by side. Having said that there clearly wasnt the opposition that there has been in the UK and US to the Iraq War, something I remember myself, feeling my owwn anti war sentiments were very much in a minority, SqueakBox 17:07, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's also important to mote that there was not an "anti-war" lobby as such, it was opposition to the British retaking of the Falklands only. I don't recall the "anti-war" lobby marching in protest when Argentina invaded, only when the British fleet was re-assembled.Greenpeas 18:58, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In order to tone down the british point of view of this article , I would like to add something like this at the top of the Analysis section :

[4] Admiral Sir John "Sandy" Woodward said the conflict was "a lot closer run than many would care to believe."

By the time of the Argentine surrender, British losses were mounting while rations and ammunition were running low. "We were on our last legs," the admiral said. "If they had been able to hold on another week it might have been a different story."

"We won the Falklands war with a degree of luck," he said yesterday. His comments are in line with the military consensus that the war was a far more desperate operation than was understood at the time. Jor70 14:28, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think you mis-use the term British POV.

This is certainly the accepted British Naval interpretation of the conflict, and as such is a British POV (it's also the accurate one, the Army could win the war, the Navy could only lose it). The ships were damned near falling apart and victory was siezed with only a few weeks remaining on the possible deployment schedule.

I agree this really ought to be represented more in the Military Analysis section, but the article is so jumbled it's difficult to know where. I'll certainly aid with the integration of this Naval perspective, however, if you'd like to make a start rewriting the section to accomodate it cleanly.

Cheers. BadWolf42 15:11, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, nothing POV about what you said. POV tends to be more incendiary staements such as Britain was right or wrong to invade, stating the reality of the military situation isnt at all POV and certainly the National geographic programme I saw recently doesnt in any way contradict what you say, ie it was a close run thing, SqueakBox 17:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

BadWolf had already add the sentence to the anlysis section. I think would be important to explain in the Landing at San Carlos section the given name of bomb alley, add it to the title will be very fair because the FAA response was so important as the landing itsef Jor70 17:20, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, as nobody seems to be contrary on this, I would change the section title and add some references about Bomb Alley Jor70 12:32, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My poor brain can't quite figure out what this means: "The attack on Belgrano was the second submarine kill since the end of the Second World War, the first having been made by PNS Hangor on INS Khukri during the Bangladesh Liberation War in 1971. It was, however, the only time that a nuclear powered submarine has done so." There seems to be a mixed tense in the last sentence. Do we mean "to date it is the only nuclear powered submarine kill" or it was the first. I think it needs to read "It is, however the only time..." rater than "it was" which makes it sound as if it no longer is, if you see what I mean. LeeG 10:35, 23 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So change it. Be bold, and all. I don't personally find it confusing, but your version is no worse than the original. And yes, it is/was the only time a nuclear sub sunk an enemy vessel. Unigolyn 10:13, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Whats with the new picture? We won the war why does it show one of our ships blowing up, it seems at 1st glance as if we were the ones that lost. Im not good at this editing stuff this needs to be changed to picture that doesnt say we lost.

I agree - sounds boring I know but that picture with the royal marines hiking across the island with the union flag on their backs - thats a pretty iconic picture everyone can recognise. Lets get it changed. [Pagren]

The article needs a neutral image in the lead section, so I have replaced it with the same one used in the German Wikipedia's article. Incidentally, I think the German article is much better set out and organised than the English one.

--NSH001 08:18, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"We won the war why does it show one of our ships blowing up" - that pretty much somes up the unbalanced POV throughout this article - this is a British article an attempt to tempre that is met with aggresion.--Vintagekits 11:41, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

although, some editors have good intentions and we made great progress in the last months Jor70 11:49, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

One of the many significant imports of Falklands War is the fierce rivalry between England and Argentine teams and fans seen on Football World cup matches. I feel this should be included under cultural impact or elsewhere. Comments welcome. Nyckid 17:09, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt it. If that was the main cause of the rivalry, it would be the same with all the UK teams. In Argentina-England matches, the Scottish fans seem more friendly to Argentina (making fun about the "hand of god" incident in mexico, and how the English were defeated). Considering the importance of football in both England and Argentina, I think the rivalry would have been as fierce as it is even if the Falklands war had never existed.201.213.16.47 06:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I was shocked to read this article and find no mention of the "three flags" proposal. Margaret Thatcher indicated she would agree to flying three flags over the islands -- the UK's, Argentina's and the UN's. See here, page 24, 2nd paragraph. The proposal was adopted by the UN, but rejected by the Argentinian military junta. --Abenyosef 19:35, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just a quick one really, this article has the sink date of HMS Antelope as the 21st of May, yet the article on HMS Antelope (F170) has the sink date as the 24th of May. Which article needs correcting? Dave t uk 13:06, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Antelope seems to be forgotten by some media these days [5], [6] --Jor70 13:33, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A very interesting battle that I read about was described in the book "Twilight Warriors" by Martin Arostegui. D Squadron of the SAS was inserted onto Mount Kent to observe the Argentinean garrison at Stanley. They were spotted by the Argentineans who sent the 602nd Commando Company to drive them out. So, there was a battle that night between Argentinean and British Special Forces on the mountain. The British were driven back but managed to hold onto the mountain until the Royal Marines of K Company arrived. After this there were some scattered skrimishes, and an Argentine commando with a silenced sniper rifle shot 13 British soldiers over a period of a week or so before being captured. I believe had the Argentinean SF managed to occupy the mountain in strength as they had intended to then Galtieri would've remained in power for the next ten years and the war would have ended in stalemate for the British. [[El Orangutan]

Hi, I have been checking out a few forums dealing with the Falklands War 25th anniversary. I just have a question. Does anybody know about ex-US Green Berets fighting on the Argentinean side on Mount Longdon? The reason why I ask is that BBC journalist Robert Fox in "A very British war: the Falklands remembered" (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/article2406403.ece) recalls meeting a number of US mercenaries serving as snipers with the Argentinean Army.

Ridiculous, a very sad way to try to hide the help given by the US to UK throught all the

conflict. Jor70

Recent edits by User:Elorangutan (contribs) are both poorly written (full of eufemisms and weasel words) and are intended to give an impression of harshness without actually giving any information. I will remove the comment, and hope the user agrees on discussing the issue and arrive to an agreement before re-introducing such controversial comments. --Mariano(t/c) 13:22, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This sentence was always since WWII and now we are already at 1974!, in few weeks more someone would find that in 1981 there was a similiar operation somewhere !! --Jor70 02:45, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I tagged the sentence for a citation because I don't know how you can really go about proving that it's still a topic of discussion in Argentina. I think it's just a dubious comment and it's hard to gauge the truthfulness of it. Imasleepviking 18:06, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In political analysis, the following was added yesterday:

"The United States international image was denigrated because of breaking the Inter-American Treaty of Reciprocal Assistance (TIAR) providing UK with satellite images of the Argentinian ship positions. Chile also broke the TIAR supporting UK troops."

(I've removed the "fact" template from this quote)

This reads as though it is universally acknowledged that said treaty was broken by the US and Chile - by all sides, including the US and Chile. If that's true, then fine. But somehow I doubt it, particularly given the lack of source given. If the US and Chile do not agree with this assessment, then this should be balanced with something from their side.

According to the article on the treaty, it appears that the Falklands example is significant to Mexico's later withdrawal from the system, and so it may be relevant to the political impact of the war. I just think such a bald assertion needs backing up and some balance. Pfainuk 11:41, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You could not expect to find a document signed "we, the chileans, broke the TIAR", They, however, openly admits they do everything they could to help Britain FACH commander declarations and yes today is universally acknowledged in latin america that the TIAR was just a tool to support US interests: a brazilian study said [7] "The deep weakening of hemispheric relations occurred due to the American support, without mediation, to the United Kingdom in the Malvinas war in 1982, which definitively turned TIAR in dead letter" Jor70 15:31, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Strange as Argentina clearly was not attacked so one wonders how anyone could claim it was broken but I note this is what the US also said, SqueakBox 15:52, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Argh two edit conflicts... Summary of what I was going to say: I've edited that paragraph to explain that the idea that the TIAR was broken is a perception in Latin America. As I understand it, the American position was that the Argentines were the aggressors and as such the TIAR didn't apply. It seems to me that it is not for us to say whether the TIAR was technically broken or not, since to do so would be to imply a POV on one side or the other of the conflict. But the fact that the TIAR was perceived to have been broken in Latin America is clear from the report Jor70 linked to, which I've taken the liberty of adding to the article. Pfainuk 16:25, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Air forces in the Falklands War vindicated the UK decision to develop the STOVL Harrier aircraft, which showed its capability of operating from forward bases with no runways. Im not sure if it is properly to mention this at least if means the UK decision to maintain 'at least the VSTOL carriers instead of nothing.. if the Royal Navy would have its ARK Royal with her air groups of Phantoms with AEW Gannets surely 6 more ships should had return to the UK and her Bucaneers would be more capable of strike any target even in the mainland. Also, how many times and with which results were used from forward bases during the hostilities ? Jor70 17:50, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why do we have this tag here? --Guinnog 01:11, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Because of the Britsh POV stranglehold on this article as outlined in this discussion. regards--Vintagekits 01:13, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I see. Let's see how the discussion turns out before tagging it then, eh? --Guinnog 01:16, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, because the British editors that are attempting to whitewash the term Malvinas from every article got to do with the Falklands havent engaged in a decent debate on it since January - as proven in the link provided.--Vintagekits 01:19, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Vintagekits, there are several alternate names presented in the lead already. We already have a section entitled names which presents several more (which perhaps should be linked from the lead). Adding any more names to the lead would make it ungainly. By comparison, the es version of the article doesn't present the name "Falkland War" in the article (except for the reference section). Perhaps your time would be better spent fixing that issue. Megapixie 01:45, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there are alternate names - but just the ones that the pro-Brits are happy with. Why should I "fix" the Spanish wiki article - I dont care about that article I care about this one because I only edit on English language wiki. You are still not giving me any reason why the term Malvinas should be whitewashed from this article?--Vintagekits 01:48, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think that Malvinas War should remain, or whatever the spanish call it. Simply because its the name used by one of the participants. Though yes, the spanish Wiki should make mention of the falklands war, thats really not our problem over here on the English wiki. Frankly, the other wikipedia don't have the bredth of editors we have on this one so you can't expect them to be as thorough on every article. Anyway, back to the point....Malvinas War (being a translation of the argentinian name for the war) should be used in something approaching equal weight in the article. Now, in the 'BRitish Military History' Falklands war is just fine. But this is about the war itself, which had two sides. Uhm. Now where was I rambling. oh yes, the hyperbole about a 'whitewash' though should perhaps be curtailed. Its just going to polarise people against your point of view and turn it into a nationalist issue. Narson 12:31, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Both terms should be given equal weight. There were two sides in the war, and this would reflect that. Regards--Domer48 19:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree we should use both names, the Falklands War and the Spanish term for it. As we already do this, I cannot see why the NPOV tag is displayed. --Guinnog 19:31, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I dont know if you are ignoring the fact the Malvinas is not just a Spanish language term to make a point or you are missing the point - Malvinas is not just a Spanish language name it is both a Spanish language name AND an English language name both should be shown with promience. I am going to edit the article now to show what I mean.--Vintagekits 19:53, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Both sides are (or were, before Vintagekit's edit) already given equal weight, since the Spanish term for the war is included, including the Spanish term for the islands. That's equal weight. The extraneous English names (Falklands Conflict/Crisis, South Atlantic War, Falklands/Malvinas War and Malvinas War with appropriate explanations) should ideally be removed or relegated to the "name" section (which we do already have) - which maybe should be brought up as the first paragraph after the lead.

The situation is similar to the name for the islands themselves: in any situation, if you use Malvinas as an English word (as per pro-Argentine sources in English) or Falklands as a Spanish word (as per pro-British sources in Spanish), you imply a strong political viewpoint, and we shouldn't act as if this wasn't the case.

In English, Falklands - or Falklands War in this case - is what linguists would term the unmarked case: the case that can imply a viewpoint but can also be neutral. Similarly, "dog" can mean a male canine or a canine of unknown or irrelevant sex. By contrast "bitch" in this context can only mean a canine known to be female. In the dog article, we don't include the word "bitch" until the second paragraph after the lead, assuming that our readers are taking "dog" in the general sense. In this case, including "Malvinas War" in the lead gives a pro-Argentinian bias. FWIW reverse "Malvinas" and "Falklands" and you have the situation in Spanish.

I'm not saying that the term "Malvinas War" shouldn't necessarily be included - just that it shouldn't be in the lead, and instead should be (as it is) in the name section with an explanation that it implies a pro-Argentine or (as we put now) left-wing bias. Note that the MOS on geographic names does not say that we should give names used by small minorities equal prominence with widely accepted names - quite the opposite in fact. What I'm suggesting is effectively the third bullet point of point 2. Pfainuk 20:10, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would argue that barring the article being changed to Falklands/Malvinas War then the Malvinas term requires a far high promience then you are suggesting otherwise we are just maintaining the undeniable pro-British perspective that currently exists. Remember this is English language wiki not English national wiki.--Vintagekits 20:16, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(reduce indent) Where are the sources which show Malvinas War is a widely used term in English? The only one I saw in the article was a rather odd article which used the term but didn't give any sort of indication that represented a widespread usage in the English language. If Malvinas War is to be given the extremely high prominence it currently enjoys then its going to have to be properly sourced, i.e. something explaining its widespread usage in English, not something which simply demonstrates that a minority uses it.

I am not talking about the Spanish name of the war "Guerra de las Malvinas" which is perfectly fine, but the specific "Malvinas War" which according to Vintagekits is as equally widely used as Falklands War in English. If you're going to insist on such prominence for your term, then you'd better source it properly, otherwise you have no justification for putting it in the lead. My argument is based on Wikipedia policy, so please do not knee-jerk accuse me of pushing a pro-British POV at me as you have done to others above, but instead focus on sourcing your opinion properly. This entire argument has become rather over-blown and very unpleasant to read, either prove your case conclusively or give it up.--Jackyd101 21:56, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. --Guinnog 22:15, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing could be further from the truth Jacky. Infact I have been trying to discuss this issue in a rational mannersince January but have been ignored, it was not until I put the NPOV tag on the article that anyway bothered to even address the issue and to be honest it kinda pisses me off that I have to stir things up a bit even to get a discussion going but this seems the waythat wiki works these days. I never said that the Malvinas is used as much as the Falklands in the English language I said it is a significant minority term, it is recognised as the equal term for the islands by the UN and due to the disputed nature of the islands we need to recognise it also. I welcome the debate by the way.--Vintagekits 23:14, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As a significant minority term (maybe 10%?) it may merit inclusion in the article, but certainly not in the lead. --Guinnog 23:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just had my point proven - Squeakbox has reverted my edits for months but refused invitation to enter into a discussion despite the majority of people here stating that it should be in the article - that is Class A edit-warring isnt someone from admin going to do something about this rather than giving me stick even though I have been trying to rationally bring this discussion forward for months.--Vintagekits 23:29, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Remember that in the case of decolonisation the UN is not necessary a neutral third party, as its stated intent is to cause decolonisation, not just to adjudicate over it, but for it to happen. Honestly? I've rarely, if ever, heard the Malvinas Term used over here as a primary term. Not even in the left wing. I have some vague recollection of the nationalist parties sometimes using the term (Alec Salmond I believe) but I could be mistaken. Either way, if we are looking at it from a purely 'whats used in English' standpoint, Malvinas /should/ have a subservient role. I think if we argue that its a two party conflict and thats the English translation of the name used by the other conflicting party then that would likely get more support. And, I hate to say, but the disputed nature of the islands is a cause of the war and nothing more, in relation to this article. If we went around naming things based on what claimants of the time called them in every article vaguely related to them, the wikipedia would be bloated with extra brackets. Lets keep the disputed nature as regards naming into the sovereignty of the falkland islands article, and keep their disputed nature as a cause of conflict in here. Narson 23:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Honestly? I've rarely, if ever, heard the Malvinas Term used over here" - I dont doubt it Narson but that is because you are British (like Squeakbox and Gunniog) - I am not and when talkin in the English language many other nationalities use the term Malvinas either in tandem or instead of the term Falklands and that needs to be recognised.--Vintagekits 23:46, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Except your claim hasnt been proved. An American commenting on our discussion of this issue on my talk page said he'd never heard of it either (OrangeMike), and while I've only spent a month or so in Ireland I certainly didnt here it there either, SqueakBox 23:49, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Then it should go in 'other names' or somesuch. The article should name things as the participants did or in the common name if the participants called it something lost to time or simply daft. I'm in favour of Malvinas War, not for the reasons you stipulate and not in the context you put foreward. (And I'm kinda British, yes. But only kinda ;) ) Narson 23:55, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That is not how other wars deal with their alternate names as seen in this discussion why should this article be any different.--Vintagekits 23:58, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Having looked through wikipedia, you are right, having checked the naming convention on several campaign, battle and war pages, it would seem the usual method would be to call this 'Falkland's War (Also known as 'Guerra del Malvinas' (spanish) or 'Malvinas War') and then continue to use Falkland's War through most of the article. But I doubt this is the result you were debating for? [My spanish is rubbish, I know] Narson 00:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt if anything like 1% of English speakers use this term, 1% would be several milion people, 10% would be tens of millions for what is a word with no common usage, SqueakBox 23:31, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Two wows at once First wow, Squeak actually discussing the issue and Second wow an argument based purely on POV and OR. I'll say no more.--Vintagekits 23:34, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I have discussed this issue extensively with you at Falkland Islands (and it is the same issue). OR on a talk page. That's a new one. What is POV about not wanting an extreme minority viewpoint expressed in a non common usage term in the opening, enought hat we mention Malvinas as a Spanish word but I am gl;ad that me allegedly arguing a POV and OR comment has sufficient rareness to merit a wow, SqueakBox 23:37, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I'm gonna skip over the stuff immediately above my post and reply directly to Vintagekitses reply to my first point. I'm putting it at the end here so that it isn't missed by anyone. I really don't care how long people have been arguing or who didn't listen to who, at the end of the day the onus is on Vintagekits to provide a source which shows that the term Malvinas War is as widely used as Falklands War. If you can prove this (and if the UN really use the term officially) then show us in the article with a properly formatted link to it. If you can't then leave it in the "Names" section where it was before and stop pressing for its equal recognition. It must be a reliable source which indiciates that the term Malvinas War is as widely used as Falklands War. This DOES NOT include sources which use "Falklands/Malvinas War" (which is the term I believe the UN actually use) but only sources specifically explaining the use of the term Malvinas War. The name "Falklands/Malvinas War" could perhaps stay in the article lead as an alternate, but only if it is sourced as an official name, preferably with a link to the UN, and an explanation of who uses it (perhaps in a footnote). Wikipedia is not interested in assertions without verification.--Jackyd101 00:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I gott ago to bed cos I got work in the morning but heres a start for you for starters Argentinian press release in English, and here for left wing report on the war, here for a report on the islands and the all important United Nations that you asked for would be a good start, the non political Ocean Currents Project, this neutral ABC website, this British book by Martin Middlebrook, this Irish website, the landmines monitor. Like I said I can add more to this later as I gotta go ta bed.--Vintagekits 00:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Time is not really an issue here, so don't worry about not continuing this tonight, I have work tomorrow too. I'm looking at your sources one by one and I'll comment on them.

• Argentinian press release in English - name says it all, not useful for proving use of the term Malvinas War in standard English.
• left wing report on the war - The same piece in the article currently. Is just about enough to prove that the term is used by fringe groups, i.e. not good enough for the lead.
• a report on the islands - The term Malvinas is only used to describe Argentinian plans or reactions, Falklands and Falklands/Malvinas are also used throughout.
• the all important United Nations that you asked for - Does not mention the war and gives the official name as "Falkland Islands (Malvinas)", which actually appears to weigh against your case.
• Ocean Currents Project - Is not about the war or the islands, but about an ocean current.
• this neutral ABC website - Is entitled "The Malvinas-Falklands War" and in the lead talks about the "invasion of the Falkland Islands". Given that the guests include both Argentinian and British academics this would seem to point to the Spanish use of the term.
• this British book by Martin Middlebrook - An Amazon page for a book of unknown content written about the Argentinian side of the war.
• this Irish website - An Irish Republican blog, perhaps good enough again to show a fringe view, not good enough for the importance you attach to the term.
• the landmines monitor - entitled "FALKLANDS/MALVINAS", no use of term Malvinas War and Malvinas only used alone in quotes from Argentinian politicians.

Two of these sources may be enough to indicate fringe use of the term, but the others only use it in a Falklands/Malvinas context or when representing an Argentinian viewpoint. The only new source to use the specific term "Malvinas War" was the Irish Republican blog, which is not good enough for these purposes. Several of the sources have nothing to do with the war, and one only tengentially connects with the islands at all. If you can come up with some more later then by all means submit them, but these are not enough on their own.--Jackyd101 00:37, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

An Argentine statement translated into English? If that's the best you can do you are destroying your own case, SqueakBox 00:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest you opinion means little to me Sqeauk, I will wait until others judge it. Surprising that you love documents and honours from the British goverment but disparage Argentinian goverment documents! Also its very strange that User:Swuekilafe turns up only when you are up to your level on WP:3RR - very unusual!--Vintagekits 00:20, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

User:Swuekilafe? Where is he? I havent seen him since this dispute last erupted, and he hasnt edited since the third. Whether my opinion means little or a lot to you doeasnt make the slightest difference as this is wikipedia, SqueakBox 00:23, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

None of these provides the key reference we are looking for here which is as Jackyd101 said a reputable statement that the war is commonly called the Malvinas War, in English. No-one is disputing that formulations like "Falklands/Malvinas War" are sometimes used, what we would need to be able to adopt your proposal would be a reliable source saying that both are used equally often, in English. Vintagekits, I hope you slept well. It might be better not to personalise these disputes this way when you return. Best wishes, --Guinnog 00:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My surprise at your using an Argentinian source, Vintage, is that I am under no illusions about how the great majority of Argentinians feel about this but that is a Spanish speaking country, SqueakBox 00:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Spanish speaking country yes, but the document is in English. Anyway the Embassy press release is not the only source I outlined above.--Vintagekits 12:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

None of these sources support the edit you are proposing. --Guinnog 14:08, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As a yardstick, note that Google finds "about 650,000 for "Falklands War"", but only "about 58,200 for "Malvinas War""; and the latter total includes "about 41,000 for "Falklands/Malvinas War"" - so the true figure is more like 691,000:58,200, or approx. 12:1 Andy Mabbett 22:13, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I got "1,150,000 for "Falklands War" and "1,340,000 for "Guerra de Malvinas" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.109.60.211 (talk • contribs)

Which proves nothing as Google trawls in all languages and nobody is claiming that in the world Falklands War is more common than Guerra de Las Malvinas, SqueakBox 00:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

- The use of Guerra de Malvinas doesn't appear to be in dispute, its the use of Malvinas War not as a translation of Guerra de Malvinas but as an English word from English sources, or something. (And just for the record, when doing a quick jokey search, I got over 230,000 hits for 'Aliens killed JFK'. I really hate google searches as a mesure of things) Narson 00:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Outsider's view: As a neutral party, may I comment? The lead had been quite stable for quite some time (I carefully reviewed the history), until Vintagekits changed it (with bad grammar and all) and then reverted any attempt to change it back. Something this sensitive should have been proposed here before changing it. In the interest of keeping this civil, I suggest that the lead get put back to the stable version before Vintagekits' edit, until a consensus can be reached to change it. In fact, I'm gonna be bold and go do this, not because I endorse one view or the other, but because I endorse stability in the encyclopedia, and I would ask that all parties in this dispute respect the concept of "discuss first" with such sensitive subjects. Stability and consensus is vital to this project, and while change is good, change should come after discussion. This isn't worth an all-out edit war. Work together folks. AKRadecki 02:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think if you look here and in the two threads below that that I have been trying to discuss this issue for nearly five month. The problem on English language wiki is that porportionally in has a larger number of British editors editing this article than anyone else and they have been stonewalling this issue.--Vintagekits 10:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that the title of hte article should be the Falklands war/Malvinas War. Reuters News service alternated between both names during the conflict. While I think that British and Argentinian people my call the war one name or the other, for the purposes of this unbias encyclopedia both names should be used to preserve neutrality. Wikipedia is not here to say that the island is rightfully british or argentinian, its job is to provide information. If both names aren't used then it adds weight to one position and not the other. If that is allowed then we are doing ourselves and wikipedia a diservice.Maplecelt 02:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral person's comment for the purpose of spurring discussion: While it is obvious that the British call the island "Falklands" and the Argentines (Argentinians? sorry if I misspeak here) call them "Malvinas". The more important question, though is what does the rest of the English-speaking world call them? This is, after all, the English-language Wikipedia. So, fans of maps and atlases, especially you with older editions: Was Malvinas a generic, universally-accepted alternative, or is it a name used mainly (or uniquely?) in Argentina? This is important, because we have some similar precendents already set for how we address issues in articles. AKRadecki 05:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Maplecelt, and have made the point already. If as AKRadecki suggests that the article be reverted and discussed first, then the tag should stay during discussion. On a personal point I am not intrested in what the rest of the "English-speaking world call them",the English speaking world should not dictate or determine our understanding of , or opinions on, our view of things. Parity of esteem, it what is being asked for, and being resisted. What we aim for is neutrality, and because this is the English version of Wikipedia, we must respect the views of non-English speaking Editors. What did the Argentinians call the war? If they called it the Malvinas War, then in the interest of balance, it should be included.--Domer48 09:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to change the Article name, I suggest you use the normal method to ascertain consensus. And read Wikipedia:Naming conflict and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) first. And one of the first statements of Naming is "Generally, article naming should prefer to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." GraemeLeggett 10:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well lets get the lead section to acknowledge the fact that it is also reffered to as Malvinas and then we can talk about a name change if that is then needed (I am not sure it is). What is true is that the current version is unacceptable and not NPOV.--Vintagekits 11:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Vintagekits, I'm not sure I get your point...the lead section does acknowlege the fact that the islands are referred to as "Malvinas". Currently, "Malvinas" is the eighth word in the lead paragraph. Is that not good enough? Is it the fact that it's italicized that bothers you? Let me give you an example of where I was going. Besides the point that GraemeLeggett makes about our naming conventions, when an article is about an American subject, U.S. English is used, when the article is about a British subject, British English is used. The point is that we conform some of the language to the subject. These islands were a British colony before Argentina existed as a nation, and before the nation before Argentina existed. They are still British. That's a reality, it's not a political bias. They were named by the first explorer to set foot on them, who happened to be British. This is a historic reality. The predominant maps of the world use the term "Falklands". Wikipedia is not a soapbox for people with political agendas to make their mark in the world. You (Domer48) may not be interested in what the rest of the English-speaking world calls them, but the reality is that this is the English-speaking Wikipedia. No one here is dictating your understanding of things, or your view of things. What we are asking is that you respect the policies and guideleines. AKRadecki 15:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes but is only acknowledges that it is referred to as the Malvians in the Spanish Language - but it does not acknowledge that it is referred to as the Malvinas War in the English aswell. --Vintagekits 15:29, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you think that the purpose of Wikipedia is to "acknowledge" something, then you don't understand the purpose of Wikipedia. We are not an advocacy forum. AKRadecki 15:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In reply to GraemeLeggett, if there is a preference only for what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, this would not be in any way neutral. This would also explaine why some English Editors are not familiar with the term. Which I find strange, since during the course of the war, a number of English Papers used the term Malvinas, though this was just to wind up the Tories I will admit. This would be an ideal opportunity to end the perpetuation of this information deficit , and learn that there is a whole wealth of information out there in the non-English speaking world that we should all be conscious of. --Domer48 15:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is based on POV neutrality, and article titles must be neutral as well, but this conflicts with the guideline about the preferred use of English. I'd rather have a short title ("making linking to those articles easy and second nature") than a clumsy compromise title (nobody says "Malvinas/Falklands", it's either one or the other). As long as Malvinas War redirects here, I think it's OK to leave the title at Falklands War. Domer48, note that Wikipedia is not an advocacy site or a source of new information; it only collects information from already published sources. This is definitely not the place "to end the perpetuation of this information deficit". —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 15:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree Pable, we are not trying to reinvent the wheel here, however we must (I am struggling to carry on the wheel analogy now) reflect what type of wheel already exists.--Vintagekits 15:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK, it looks to me like there are three different arguments going on at the same time here. These need to be seperated before any solutions can be reached.

• 1) The name of the islands themselves.
• 2) The name of the war
• 3) What alternative names of the war are acceptable and what prominence should they be given in the article.

Some points which have emerged from the discussion.

• The first question should be discussed at Falkland Islands, not here. The discussion of the islands' name and the war's name are related but seperate questions which should not be confused.
• This is the English-language Wikipedia, and thus the most common term in English is the one which this article should present as title and lead.
• The most common name for the conflict in English is Falklands War. This includes English speaking populations in Britain, United States, Australia and elsewhere. Unsourced claims have been made that it is not the most common name in Ireland.
• The most common name for the conflict in Spanish is Guerra de las Malvinas.
• There is a case that Falklands/Malvinas War is a secondary name widely used in diplomatic language.
• There is a case that Falklands Crisis/Conflict is a well used secondary name.
• So far, no real evidence has been provided that Malvinas War is a common term in any English speaking place, only that it is used by minor fringe groups.
• Guerra del Atlántico Sur may be a common Spanish term, it is used on the Spanish Wikipedia, but the question remains over whether it is common enough for the lead of the English article.
• Guerra de las Falklands may be a fringe term in Spanish, possibly in Chile, but this too is unsourced.

The decision remains, where and in how much detail are the above choices presented. Here are some further points.

• Vintagekits clearly desires that Malvinas War be in the lead, other users have resisted this. Wikipedia policy is quite clear that challenged statements MUST be reliably sourced. Since this claim has been challenged, Vintagekits must reliably source his assertion that Malvinas War is a common English term.
• As for the other terms, there is a resonable case that all (including Malvinas War) can be presented in context with sources in the "Names" section at the bottom of the page. There is also an agreed case that the most common Spanish name can follow the English in the lead.
• There also seem to be reliable enough sources that Falklands Crisis/Conflict and Falklands/Malvinas War could perhps be presented unbolded further down the lead as alternative names as well as in the names section.
• Acceptable and reliable sources must be found to back up all the assertions made over names. These incude major international and national newservices, bodies, organisations and governments. Only sources in English are acceptable, as translations from Spanish do not prove anything except that Spanish speaking countries use Malvinas, which we already know. Sources from the British government or major British newspapers etc. should be labelled as such to make it clear that they come from one side of the dispute. Sources from other English speaking countries are probably the most useful.

What do people think to this summary and does anybody have any constructive comments about where to proceed? Regards--Jackyd101 18:20, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think you have summed it up admirably, Jackyd101. --Guinnog 18:29, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with some of it but disagree with others. You seem to be picking and choosing how we look at evidence and what evidence is acceptable and how the information should be presented.--Vintagekits 19:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please clarify what you believe I have picked and chosen? What do you agree with or disagree with?--Jackyd101 19:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I, too, think that you have done a masterful job in clarifying things. AKRadecki 19:47, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yours was a very good summation, Jackyd101. The sources as yet identified do not support the contention that "Malvinas War" is a term used in English to the degree necessary to merit inclusion in the lead. I would welcome its inclusion there if the sources can be found. Mmccalpin 00:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A masterful summary, I think. SheffieldSteel 19:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, when it comes to sources, I dug into the media coverage of the Versailles summit, inwhich all the western leaders were in attendance. The conflict in the Falklands, among others, was discussed. In the coverage of this aspect of the summit, "Falklands crisis" and "Falklands conflict" are the terms primarily used. "Malvinas" isn't at all as far as I can see. A couple refs: Mitterrand's statement at the conclusion of the summit; Time magazine coverage. There are others, as well. My point is that the leaders in the western world, not just the English-speaking world, at the time, discussed this as "Falklands", not "Malvinas" as the English-language name for the conflict. AKRadecki 20:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just to note, in the original French, Mitterrand uses the word "Falklands" in reference to the war, and "Îles Malouines" in reference to the islands. You can see that here. So the translation into English, in reference to the war, is quite clear. (The standard French name for the war, incidentally is "(la) guerre des Malouines", reflecting the standard French name for the islands).

Incidentally, I think Jackyd101's clarification is accurate and well done. Pfainuk 22:11, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just looking at the source given, and I do have to agree it doesn't back up the statement that the British Left call it Malvinas (Even in any large number). Infact, looking at some other articles from this 'Proletarian Revolution/Socialist Voice' (Is this really a reliable source?) it even acknowledges several left leaning groups calling them falklands and falklanders, including Tony Benn's group within labour as well as the Socialist Workers Party and Spartacist League of Britain. I am sure Vingekits will have a better (And British) source so I will leave it to him to alter the source for a better one. Narson 11:39, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That might be a reliable source, but only for what that particular group says - at least, if I understand WP:RS correctly. More importantly, that source seems somewhat shy of wikipedia's notability threshold. SheffieldSteel 13:03, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I must admit I've never heard of them, but my father's cousin might have an idea. Her mother was a pretty staunch and active member of the British communist groups, as was that entire side of the family. But yeah, that definatly appears to be an American source (And even they use Malvinas (Falklands) in their opening paragraph :) ) Narson 13:25, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

From Der Spiegel. I will put forward a more comprehensive argument soon (time constraints you know!) but here is a strong piece of evidence which show a very main stream non British or Argentinian source referring to the islands as the Malvinas and the war as the Malvinas War.--Vintagekits 23:43, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There have been numerous (reverted) attempts to change the figures in the "Casualties" portion of the infobox - specifically, the number of Argentinian cargo ships sunk. One would think that such a simple question should be easy to answer definitively, once and for all. With that aim in mind, I invite those editors who feel strongly on this issue, rather than engaging in edit war, to please state your cases here, preferrably citing reliable sources. SheffieldSteel 21:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Every two or three months the great "this article should be called the..." debate arises, and everytime it is settled with the same elaborate arguements. It is getting rediculously repetititve and time consuming to go through all of these arguements, Such as the islanders choice, the victor naming the islands, the original naming of the islands, who had them first and so forth. Inevitably it becomes a sort of 'who should control the islands' proxy debate, which itself gets some people very aggitated as although the British decisively won the war, the issue of ownership remains unsettled in the opinion of the Argentines.

However, As far as I can see there is no problem calling this article the Falklands War. This is for one main reason that the Falkland Islands are the correct English name for the islands. Malvinas is the argentine/spanish name for the islands. US news agencies like Reuters only called the islands Malvinas/Falklands during the war (and to a degree afterwards) to accomodate the high number of spanish speaking people in north america. In Europe (with the obvious exception of spain) they were not so named.

As a case study of this policy, if you type "deutschland" into the search bar it redirects you to germany. Thats because germany is the english name for country and this is the english wikipedia. en.wikipedia isn't a multilingual encylopedia but does accomodate commonly known non-english words. The very fact a malvinas redirect exists in this case is generous for normal policy. I see no reason why this should be furhter extended to rename the article to Falklands/Malvinas as malvinas is not the english name for the islands and this is afterall the en. version of wikipedia. You dont see the title of 'germany' as 'Germany/deutschland'. WikipedianProlific^(Talk) 14:50, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As you already said , I will explain again like previous months, why there is not a Germany/deutschland so called article. It because there is not a claim or dispute there!!. The islands are referred as Falklands Islands (Malvinas) by the UN and the ISO standard not just Falklands nor Malvinas. Now is your time to came again and say : "The people there want to be called Falklands", "UK won the war", and so on .- Jor70 14:57, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think anyone had raised a problem with this being called the Falkland War for a while? *looks at Jor70* Until you brought it up anyway :) Narson 15:03, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I did not begin this again, he asked why there is not a Germany/deutschland article. Jor70 15:13, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I meant until he brought it up (At which point you chimed in) Narson 15:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jor70 point is valid, and has not been addressed. --Domer48 15:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(un-dent)So, the argument seems to boil down to this

• Malvinas is the Spanish name
• Falklands is the English name
• Spanish speakers want to use the Spanish name
• English speakers mainly want to use the English name
• Some English speakers (including, but not limited to, Irish republicans and some socialists) want to use the Spanish name
• Diplomats, international agencies, and news media may use one or both names, depending on native tongue and on audience

Did I miss anything? SheffieldSteel 15:17, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That seems to be it. Frankly I think the naming of the war is less controversial than the islands. The common name is Falkland War in the English language. Its not like there is some neutral source we can go to on matters on the naming of colonies/dependencies/overseas territory/Whatever we are calling them these days. So we go with what is the common name. Narson 15:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

All that some Editors want is for the title to be balanced, and for each name to be given parity of esteem. Or in wiki talk equal weight. --Domer48 15:33, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Boiled nicely. It seems that the solution is right in front of us: Call it the English name in the English wikipedia, the Spanish name in the Spanish wikipedia, and have a redirect from Malvinas War to Falklands war in the En WP so that the odd diplomat, int'l agency worker, Irish Republican or news reporter who stops by can find his way easily...oh, wait, that's how it is now. So what's the fuss all about? Think about how much time is being wasted on this debate, time that could be used for truly constructive editing? If you really are hung up with using Spanish names for things, consider going and editing on the Spanish wikipedia. With their 237,000 articles to our 1.8 million, they could actually use your talents a lot more over there. As for "parity of esteem", it's not the place of Wikipedia to make people feel good about the name their own spanish-speaking county calls a particular war. AKRadecki 15:42, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Had a look for "equal weight" - couldn't find it. Theres WP:UNDUE weight, but I'm not sure that's what you want. SheffieldSteel 15:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks SheffieldSteel WP:UNDUE weight will do just fine. There is an obvious name dispute in relation to this article, and the title doses not reflect that. Therefore undue weight is being giving to one term. AKRadecki Good manners and politeness is applicable and appreciated in any language. --Domer48 16:14, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is no major name dispute in English though. The naming of articles is by common name in English, it would appear. For example, I doubt Boston Massacre is the most NPOV term. Yet could you imagine calling it 'Riot in Kings Street' or 'Civil disturbance in Boston'? Alternative names are given in the lead section. This is perfectly fine (infact, we even give the spanish alternative before we give the first British one). Narson 16:39, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's nice to throw around guidelines like WP:UNDUE in comments, but have you actually read it? What it actually says about minority views is "should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Now an important qualification: Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all." Now compare usage: "Falklands War" is used by the vast majority of the English-speaking world. "Malvinas War", in English is used by...who? It is clearly a minority view, and WP:UNDUE, when properly applied here, does not require "Malvians War" to be given parity. AKRadecki^Speaketh 16:56, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, I really don't think WP:UNDUE was what Domer48 wanted. Bearing those guidelines in mind, let's look at how our Spanish-speaking colleagues interpreted them:-

(This is easy to find: just change the URL from en.wikipedia to es.wikipedia and Falklands_War will redirect you to the correct article.) My point is, the current English version is already more favourable to the Spanish name than the Spanish version is to the English name. Now I'm not claiming that this is a conclusive argument, but it seems to me that, given the interpretation those editors have given to the NPOV rules regarding naming the conflict, and taking into account the minority English-speaking usage of Malvinas, the English version is pretty nearly exactly right. Perhaps it gives the Spanish term a little too much weight, since it really is a small minority, but that's okay. I think we can afford to give the benefit of the doubt here. What we absolutely should not do, in my opinion, is give any more weight to the Spanish name than we currently do. SheffieldSteel 17:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The english version more favourable ?!? Are you kidding, the english WP shows the spanish name in italics, under () and as translation while the spanish WP shows Falklands War in boldt and in the same level than the spanish names.- Jor70 19:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is in italics, because that is how it is proper to write foreign words in English text (see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (text formatting)). I would not, however, object to the spanish names also being bolded. AKRadecki^Speaketh 19:47, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Im not against the WP style, just sounds me not nice SheffieldSteel comment --Jor70 19:54, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I just fail to see how one of the parties in a conflict, can be considered to be a minority view in relation to the war and how it is named. The issue in relation to the islands, as far as I’m aware, is still unresolved. By insisting on using only one term in the title, we are lending undue weight to one of the conflicting parties. In affect, we are pre-determining any established outcome. --Domer48 18:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't about giving both sides in the war equal time on Wikipedia. But even if it were, you're argument doesn't hold water: One side, the English, called it "Falklands War", the other side, the Argentines, called it "La Guerra de las Malvinas" or "Guerra del Atlántico Sur", and as it was pointed out already, the Argentinian name is already given precedence in the lead over the alternate English name. What is a minority view is the usage, in English, of the title "Malvinas War". That's the point here. We're not refighting the war, and both sides, in their native languages, are more than adequately represented in the lead. The title, because this is the English Wikipedia, is the English usage. AKRadecki^Speaketh 18:35, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

When I used the term "minority" in my post above, I was referring to the minority of English-speakers who use the Spanish name. Sorry I wasn't more clear. SheffieldSteel 18:36, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No Problem, SheffieldSteel,Regards --Domer48 19:10, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Although some people persist in calling it "Port Stanley", this is not and was not the official name of the town before or after the war (discounting the numerous names that the Argentines gave it). "Stanley" without the "Port" prefix was established long before the war, and on 2 August 1956, the Officer Administering the Government of the Falkland Islands reported to the Secretary of State for the Colonies in London as follows:

There is some difficulty over the correct name of the capital. Early despatches contain reference to both Port Stanley and Stanley. Port Stanley was accepted by the Naming Commission set up in 1943 to consider the names then being included on the War Office maps. Local opinion differs on the matter, but there is no doubt that Stanley is now common usage and has been for some considerable time. The capital is defined as Stanley in the Interpretation and General Law Ordinance. In the circumstances I would advise that the correct name for the capital is Stanley.[8]

It was not officially Port Stanley in 1982, is not Port Stanley in 2007, and was plain Stanley during the 1960s, 1970s, most of the 1980s, 1990s and present day.

This is nitpicking, I know, but it is a point of accuracy. --MacRusgail 17:14, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think perhaps the UK media used the term "Port Stanley" too much at the time, which let to its prominent place in popular culture. Sources such as that quoted above would not be necessary otherwise. The only question is how best to cover this "popular misconception" in the article. SheffieldSteel 17:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]