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Irrelevant: "White Woman Missing Syndrome", which is neither scientific nor related to this individual story. Therion1313 (talk) 19:40, 26 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done This case did in fact cause an elevated national debate about missing white woman syndrome, a term used by social scientists. How to discuss it in this article has been extensively discussed but you are free to see if you can change consensus. --SVTCobra 19:53, 26 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be good to provide more neutrality in this section, as the "missing white woman syndrome" thing is quite biased when looking at the sources, but it still isn't irrelevant. It was debated at length in this case, and so should be included, not removed. PetSematary182 (talk) 19:09, 20 January 2022 (UTC)PetSematary182[reply]

I was wondering if there should be a section added to this page for the case's coverage in popular media. 60 Minutes Australia, Dr. Phil and a number of other TV shows have extensively explored the case and it seems like it would be beneficial to mention these in the article, since these are major programs watched by international audiences. I can't edit the article itself, but I can provide links to these instances of media coverage and pages for citation purposes. PetSematary182 (talk) 19:06, 20 January 2022 (UTC)PetSematary182[reply]

This needs to be moved to Murder of Gabby Petito. The FBI Denver Division closed out the investigation and ruled Brian Laundrie as the perpetrator. Also why is List of unsolved murders still listed on the article?. Mysticair667537 (talk) 06:12, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mysticair667537 I noticed that you moved the article to a new name, although it clearly states on this talk page above: Current consensus (October 2021):Subject and title: The article title should be about the event and circumstances around the death of Gabby Petito and not "Gabby Petito" or "Gabrielle Petito" - Discussion: The article title should remain "Killing of..." and not "Murder of..." as per WP:BLPCRIME, WP:KILLINGS and WP:KILLINGOF. Did you perhaps gain consensus for your change in another location, and forget to move that discussion here? Netherzone (talk) 19:54, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think consensus needs to form here on the Talk Page first for moving the article from "Killing of..." to "Murder of...", as we don't yet have full information on exactly what transpired. It's not that I don't think he killed her; I'm the editor who made the first edit a couple days ago to directly attribute Petito's killing to Laundrie (as opposed to the deliberately indefinite way it was worded previously, before Landrie's notebook information was announced by the FBI). It's just that we don't actually know yet what the underlying nature of the killing was. Is it a situation which would have warranted first or second degree murder charges? Or were the other factors in play that would have made it something more like voluntary manslaughter (i.e., the "killing of a human being in which the offender acted during the heat of passion, under circumstances that would cause a reasonable person to become emotionally or mentally disturbed to the point that they cannot reasonably control their emotions," etc.) I'm sure that in time, the FBI will disclose the full contents of the notebook. Until that information is parsed and reasoned through to reach a new consensus, the article should remain at "Killing of..." Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 02:04, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I reason for moving the article to Murder of Gabby Petito was because the word "Murder" was used in the Attack type, so I didn't think a consensus was needed. The FBI also used the word "Murder" In this statement:

“We truly appreciate the FBI’s diligent and painstaking efforts in this extremely complicated case,” according to a statement from Petito’s family. “The quality and quantity of the facts and information collected by the FBI leave no doubt the Brian Laundrie murdered Gabby.”[1] Mysticair667537 (talk) 06:17, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Petito’s family, not the FBI. My mistake Mysticair667537 (talk) 06:29, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mysticair667537, Netherzone, and AzureCitizen: In deciding whether the title of this article should begin Killing of ... or Murder of ..., one needs to consider why Wikipedia has this convention. Primarily this convention exists because living people have the right to a fair trial and anyone charged with a crime is presumed innocent until found guilty. However, that is no longer the case in this situation, as the only likely suspect is deceased and investigators have evidence that the suspect admits to killing the victim. While it is not a finding in court, it is a finding by officials that this is a murder. The Wikipedia essay about "Murder of" articles and the naming conventions for violence and deaths, both do not seem to have contemplated that the prime murder suspect might admit guilt and then commit suicide. This eventuality falls outside the advice given by WP:BLPCRIME, WP:KILLINGS and WP:KILLINGOF, so we fall back to the general criteria for naming the article. Most of the reliable sources report that the FBI now considers this homicide to be a Murder as there is written evidence of the suspect admitting guilt in his notebook. Since the suspect is deceased as a result of his own actions, there won't be any charges laid, no court hearing nor a conviction. This is the situation where we should ignore the rules because they are no longer relevant. I support the latest title change because it is a Murder, in my view, and oppose trying to undo the change now that it has happened. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 14:45, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Cameron Dewe: You mentioned above that the officials have found this to be a murder, and that the FBI considers it to be a murder. Can you provide us with some sources to verify that they have declared this to be a murder? Or are the authorities still calling it a "killing" (and/or "homicide")? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 00:38, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It seems the Petito family, not the FBI is using the word "murder". We have to go by what reliable sources actually say. Let us not forget that even tho this is not a BLP, there are living people involved - there are two families - the Petito family and the Laundrie family. We need to be cognizant of the wording and considerate towards both families as neutral editors. When in doubt, do no harm. Netherzone (talk) 01:34, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@AzureCitizen and Netherzone: This 21 January 2022 statement from the FBI Denver office includes the statement that "A review of the notebook revealed written statements by Mr. Laundrie claiming responsibility for Ms. Petito’s death." Although the FBI do not mention the word "murder", nor do they mention "killing", they only call this a tragic death as a result of "blunt-force injuries to the head and neck, with manual strangulation." in the statement. If one adopts the FBI approach, the title of the article should be Death of ..., if one adopts the Coroner's opinion then "Manual strangulation of ..." would be a good title. But since the only suspect is deceased and the FBI are saying he has admitted responsibility for causing the death of Gabby Petito, then the commonly recognizable interpretation is that the only suspect in this case has confessed to murder. I believe the facts in the FBI statement are sufficient to meet both the guilty act and the guilty mind elements for the crime of murder and the reporting media have portrayed this as a murder, not a death or a killing. A quick sample of reports in the media about the FBI statement are either interpreting this as a murder or at least a confession of responsibility for the death. See these sources and read beyond the headlines:

• "Gabby Petito: Boyfriend of blogger 'responsible' for her murder". BBC News. 21 January 2022. Retrieved 26 January 2022.
• Alvord, Kyler (21 January 2022). "Brian Laundrie's Notebook Confession Reveals He Murdered Fiancée Gabby Petito". PEOPLE.com. Retrieved 26 January 2022.
• "Gabby Petito: Boyfriend of blogger 'responsible' for her murder". RNZ. 22 January 2022. Retrieved 26 January 2022.
• "Brian Laundrie claims responsibility for killing Gabby Petito in notebook: FBI". ABC News. A. B. C. News. Retrieved 26 January 2022.
• Marks, Andrea (21 January 2022). "Brian Laundrie Admitted to Killing Gabby Petito, According to FBI". Rolling Stone. Retrieved 26 January 2022.
• "Brian Laundrie wrote that he killed Gabby Petito, the FBI says". NPR. Associated Press. 22 January 2022. Retrieved 26 January 2022.
• "FBI says Brian Laundrie's notebook has him claiming responsibility for Gabby Petito's death". Stuff. 21 January 2022. Retrieved 26 January 2022.
• "Brian Laundrie admitted in notebook to killing Gabby Petito, FBI says". the Guardian. Associated Press. 21 January 2022. Retrieved 26 January 2022.

Were Brian Laundrie still alive, his confession would result in him being found guilty of and convicted for murder. Because Landrie is dead and the FBI is closing the case, I believes this amounts to adjudication in this case. The FBI says this is a death where their only suspect claims responsibility, the Victim's family and independent news media sources are interpreting that as murder. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 03:10, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• I've reverted the move as it clearly is not non-controversial. I suggest opening an RM discussion here. Elli (talk | contribs) 03:16, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Elli, AzureCitizen, Netherzone, and Mysticair667537: I understand why Elli has moved this article back to the title of Killing of Gabby Petito. Applying WP:KILLINGS strictly gives that title. However, WP:BLPCRIME, WP:KILLINGS and WP:MURDEROF does not contemplate that the single suspect is now both deceased and has effectively provided a deathbed confession to causing the death of the victim. The Denver office of the FBI has been careful to avoid using the terms "murder" or "killing" in their closing statement, only saying it is a "death". However, various media sources have used both "killing" and "murder" when describing this death. No charges of murder will be laid and there will not be a court trial to convict anyone. As various sources describe this event in different ways we need to decide not only what to title this event but also develop some principles or guidelines as to how and why we came to that title, so we can apply the same principles or guidelines in similar circumstances. If we accept the FBI's carefully worded statement, and apply the terms used by investigating authorities, then the title should be "Death of Gabby Petito", if not, then we need to consider what the most appropriate natural and recognizable common name should be, given the variability in the sources. We also need to be able to explain the logic behind choosing that name, so we can update the various guidelines and decision-making criteria. I don't think merely counting the number of times a particular term is used by sources is good enough, we need to explain how the sources are interpreted, too. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 00:30, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t get why this is so controversial. Laundrie confessed. It was a murder. TheXuitts (talk) 04:38, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

WP:KILLINGS is neither policy nor guideline, so its content is not binding. If we followed its flowchart zealously, murder-suicide would be impossible, since the suicidal killer would not be alive to be convicted of murder. WWGB (talk) 05:25, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

^^^^^^ This. TheXuitts (talk) 05:32, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@TheXuitts and WWGB: In the usual murder-suicide case, both the victim and perpetrator are dead by the time law enforcement intervenes, and they usually label the investigation a murder-suicide from the outset. In this case, the victim was alive, but distressed, when law enforcement first intervened and the case has evolved from there. The FBI's carefully worded statement does not use the word "murder", nor does it use "killing", it only says Laundrie accepted responsibility for causing Petito's death. However, various news media have also put their own spins on this "death" and called it a murder, killing, death or disappearance, as they see fit. You and I might also be of an opinion that this is a murder as well, but that leads to editorial bias. For me the question is: Who does the Wikipedia community, collectively, believe and accept is right? The FBI, who investigated the case and ought to know a murder when they see one, or the news media, who might put their own spin on what the FBI has to say and take into account the opinions of others. How does the Wikipedia community decide, consistently? This argument is really about verifiability and how to interpret sources that avoid using a succinct term that means what they say, so they can avoid giving an opinion on what happened. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 02:28, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Policy: Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from reliable secondary sources. An FBI statement is a primary source. If RSSs use the term murder then so may we. WWGB (talk) 02:39, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For TheXuitts: In your edit summary here, you said that almost all "murder of" or "killing of" articles on Wikipedia include the "attack type" parameter in their infoboxes. Can you provide some examples? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 23:55, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The article uses the wrong template. It should use template:infobox event, which is used for crimes. Template:infobox civilian attack is used in articles like 9/11. WWGB (talk) 02:33, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

*Murder of Ahmaud Arbery

• Murder of John Lennon
• Murders of Alison Parker and Adam Ward
• Murders of Jennifer Ertman and Elizabeth Peña
• 2018 Riverview murders
• Killing of Vincent Chin
• Killing of Vicha Ratanapakdee TheXuitts (talk) 08:10, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So, I would like to start this out by making it resoundingly clear that I believe Laundrie killed Ms. Petito. I would also like to state that I’m not terribly familiar with this section of Wikipedia, as I mainly focus on law enforcement, military, and aviation articles. So I’m not sure what the accepted convention here, is.

That being said; Should the intro not state that Ms. Petito was *allegedly* killed by Laundrie? Or are we staying an incontrovertible fact backed by consensus? Without a video of what happened, one will never be able to be 100% certain what transpired, unfortunately.

I’m very familiar with the FBI’s statement on the matter, and I know they state they believe that Petito was killed by Laundrie. However, the FBI does not pronounce guilt or innocence, it is a law enforcement agency (LEA). They are free to state their opinions. Furthermore, as this murder took place in the US, US law applies, and a dead person cannot be tried. I’m the eyes of the law, Laundrie is, and always be, innocent, as he was never proven guilty.

If Laundrie had been found alive, we would be staying “alleged,” correct?

I’d be more than happy to see something included in the intro that states something along the lines of, “The Federal Bureau of Investigation has stated that Laundrie was solely responsible for the killing,” and that “Laundrie himself admitted to the killing in a journal entry prior to his suicide.” I know that’s already mentioned in the intro, but we could bump it up higher.

I truly don’t want to start an argument over this, I’m merely wondering if this is the proper convention in a case like this. I couldn’t find any other articles to compare it to, so I figured I’d just open the discussion; Thoughts?

MWFwiki (talk) 09:20, 3 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think video evidence of every killing and/or murder is an inconceivably high standard of evidence. Also, this is an encyclopedia not a court of law or an oracle of absolute truth. --SVTCobra 10:17, 3 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]