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The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future: Kennedy-Kollar, Deniese (2024). "Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW)". Extremism and Radicalization in the Manosphere: Beta Uprising. Routledge Studies in Crime and Society. New York: Routledge. pp. 58–64. doi:10.4324/9781032631080-6. ISBN 978-1-040-03920-5. Krendel, Alexandra (2021). "From Sexism to Misogyny: Can Online Echo Chambers Stay Quarantined?". In Zempi, Irene; Smith, Jo (eds.). Misogyny as Hate Crime. London: Routledge. pp. 99–118. doi:10.4324/9781003023722-5. ISBN 978-1-000-43034-9. Rothermel, Ann-Kathrin; Kelly, Megan; Jasser, Greta (2022). "Of Victims, Mass Murder, and 'Real Men': The Masculinities of the 'Manosphere'". In Carian, Emily K.; DiBranco, Alex; Ebin, Chelsea (eds.). Male Supremacism in the United States: From Patriarchal Traditionalism to Misogynist Incels and the Alt-Right. Routledge Studies in Fascism and the Far Right. London: Routledge. pp. 117–141. doi:10.4324/9781003164722-9. ISBN 978-1-0005-7622-1.

Thread retitled from "Opinionation".

This article is opinionated. Calling a group mysoginistic because of your personal views is not only wrong, but also has no place on a platform meant to educate people. Your opinions aren't relevant on this platform. Reddouble (talk) 03:17, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article characterizes the group as the cited sources do, that is how Wikipedia works. Editor's opinions don't come into it. MrOllie (talk) 03:23, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it's incorrect and should not be included into the article simply because of sources biases. How can I help to change this? (Since I can't edit the article) Reddouble (talk) 03:29, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We describe subjects how reliable sources describe them. Even if that means doing so in a way that might seem biased to those related to the subject. For example, we call homeopathy a pseudoscience whose beliefs are contradictory to all modern sciences. Practitioners of homeopathy likely consider this biased, but that's what reliable sources say about the subject. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:52, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, how can I preserve the reliability of Wikipedia by correcting a protected mistake? Reddouble (talk) 21:42, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Find other reliable sources. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 21:44, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See the FAQ. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 16:07, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect? That's just, like, your opinion, man.

It's is also not the same as opinionated. Correctness is not simply the absence of opinions. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 16:10, 21 August 2024 (UTC) edited 05:47, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. I don’t see how it is “misogynistic” when someone opts to be a hermit? Leave them alone and refrain from slapping labels to demonise them instead. Steven1991 (talk) 19:09, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, so what about "heteropessimism?" Here is a book that talks about it: https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/edit/10.4324/9781003263883-3/incels-mgtow-heteropessimism-jacob-johanssen

" Incels and MGTOWs are one particularly extreme example of wider developments that Asa Seresin (2019) has named heteropessimism, which are described as “performative disaffiliations with heterosexuality, usually expressed in the form of regret, embarrassment, or hopelessness about straight experience” (ibid). Heteropessimism is a permanent articulation of disappointment with straight culture and heterosexuality while at the same time remaining deeply attached to them. As Seresin has argued, such discourses can be found within anti-/feminist circles and also in the LGBTQI community. Heteropessimism is thus a contemporary defence mechanism that is more widely apparent than in male communities." Simple and accurate definition of the core issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.43.24.110 (talk) 05:23, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Where does the source say MGTOW, or indeed heteropessimism, isn't misogynistic? —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 05:44, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've never done any kind of editing on Wikipedia, so please be as kind as possible as I totally do this the wrong way. Can this be added as a reliable source? https://medium.com/@deeperunderstanding/mgtow-or-men-going-their-own-way-what-is-it-and-what-is-their-purpose-c4959aac9be0 JeremySWiki (talk) 15:02, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

...No? spintheer (talk) 15:06, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The 2021 Newsweek story about r/MGTOW getting banned from Reddit says the manosphere (not MGTOW specifically) has been concretely associated with acts of domestic terrorism, citing a paper by Ribeiro et al. The paper discusses MGTOW in relation to extreme anti-feminism and misogyny but not terrorism per se. The words "terror" and "terrorism" do not appear in the document at all. WP:NEWSWEEK post-2013 is of uncertain reliability, and this demonstrates exactly why. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 18:52, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The academic source does make several mentions of violence including one reference (in their review of other literature) of extremist violence. This is likely what Newsweek was clicking off of but, you are correct, Newsweek is not reliably recounting the RS here. We should prefer the RS from Ribeiro et al. over Newsweek and leave out the bad science journalism in favour of the better science. Simonm223 (talk) 19:09, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, thanks for the suggestion. Updated to an academic reference. Truthbetoldwikipedian (talk) 21:07, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]