Archives

Archive 1

This page has archives. Sections older than 10 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present.

Hi thanks for creating this article. When we translate or borrow from other language wikis it’s a requirement to acknowledge the source. The best way to do this is to include it in your edit summary (e.g. “translated from ar.wiki”) and there’s also a translation template you can add to the talk page. If you can confirm where material for this article was sourced I’ll add the template to the talk page for you if it is needed. Happy editing and please leave a message on my talk page if you need any help Mccapra (talk) 21:41, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Mccapra Sure, but if you verify, you'll find that I have created the article in all languages. Therefore, when I retranslate my own work, I do not mention it. Regards. Riad Salih (talk) 22:07, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Riad. Since you're active on both the French and Arabic Wikipedia, I was wondering whether you could keep an eye on the highly disruptive editor "Aquaamjad" (they are uploading POV maps and adding them to both projects, here and here). I already reverted their edits on this one. Thanks. M.Bitton (talk) 16:18, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

A tag has been placed on Category:Maghreb templates indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:38, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

A tag has been placed on Category:Maghrebian people indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:02, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Riad Salih. I see you have initiated a deletion process for the category "Scholars of Precolonial North Africa|Scholars of Precolonial North Africa", with the reason:

"It is not accurate to categorize something as 'precolonial North Africa,' and it's important to note that North Africa does not solely refer to the Maghreb region. I have already suggested a category named : Maghrebian people."

With all due respect, would you please provide an explanation as to why it is "not accurate" to categorize something as "precolonial North Africa"? It would generally be understood that "Precolonial North Africa" refers to North Africa prior to 19th-century European colonization, as North Africa is a region in Africa, and scholars and laymen alike generally refer to "Precolonial Africa" in the same sense, even though many parts of Africa were "colonized", by both Africans and non-Africans alike, prior to the 19th century.

I will add that, as is indicated by the descriptive text in the category's text, and the inclusion of articles related to Egyptian individuals (including al-Suyuti, Abd al-Rahman al-Jabarti, Hassan al-Jabarti, and so on), this c category clearly does not confuse North Africa with the Mahgreb, and does not consist of exclusively Maghrebi individuals.

I will finally note that a category for "Scholars of Precolonial North Africa" may not be appropriate to combine with a category for "Maghrebi People", as its intention is clearly different. Depending on how the bounds of such a category were to be defined, "Maghrebi People" may be interpreted to refer to people with: roots or recent ancestry from the Maghreb, roots or recent ancestry from a specifically "Maghrebi" ethnic group (however that may be defined), Maghrebi birth (ie: born in a Maghrebi country), or time lived in the Maghreb (regardless of ancestry and birth). Many of these potential interpretations, naturally, would conflict with the intended purpose of a category meant to highlight scholars who operated in North Africa, regardless of background and origin.

HiddenHistoryPedia (talk) 22:27, 11 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, categorizing individuals based on pre-colonial eras is both illogical and inappropriate. When referring to North Africa or the Maghreb, scholars are never labeled based on a colonial framework. This way of categorization itself, lacks objectivity and is heavily influenced by Western perspectives.

The inhabitants of this region are identified as Maghrebi people or simply as North Africans. The most suitable designations are North African people and Maghrebi people as historically recognized in various sources. And to avoid the confusion you have mentionned, it would be more accurate to designate this individuals as Scholars related to the Maghreb or North Africa. Regards Riad Salih (talk) 23:23, 11 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Why is it illogical to categorize individuals "based on pre-colonial eras"? Why does "this way of categorization [lack] objectivity"? Why is it "heavily influenced by Western perspectives", and if it is, why is this a bad thing?

As previously stated, categorization schema delineating between "pre- , "peri-", and "post-" colonial periods are well-established for various parts of the world, including the Americas (especially Meso-America and the Caribbean, where the "pre-Columbian" period is typically treated as a "pre-colonial" era) and many certain parts of Asia. This is because European conquest and colonization are understood to mark uniquely significant events in the histories of most countries which experienced it.

Scholars of Africa, including many from Africa who helped to found the field, and who continue to make significant contributions, broadly embrace this schema: they recognize its ability to highlight and celebrate the history of Africans prior to European conquest, an especially important exercise given their constant struggle against those seeking to diminish that past.

As previously stated, "Maghrebi" is not synonymous to "North African". Egyptians are not Maghrebi, and Sudanese people are not Maghrebi. "Maghreb" etymologically refers to the "Far West", meaning to countries west of Egypt (Misr), especially Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia. As such, it would be inappropriate to title the category in reference to Maghrebis. As the Maghreb essentially is contained within North Africa, the title "North Africa" is more appropriate, and far less potentially ambiguous.

The regionalization schema (North Africa) is chosen as it reflects conventionally well-understood methods of regionalizing the African continent, used by both Africans and non-Africans alike, and carrying a decent amount of historical value. The delineation system is not perfect, but it is very intuitive and thus extremely user-friendly.

Additionally, periodization schema are not exclusive. One may discuss the same chunk of history using multiple overlapping categorical systems: we speak of "Classical History" in the same breadth as "Ancient History", "The Hellenistic Era", the "Bronze Age", the "Iron Age", and so on. The existence of one framework does not preclude the existence of others. HiddenHistoryPedia (talk) 01:52, 12 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@HiddenHistoryPedia

Regarding Maghrebi North African scholars, you can review my contributions, I am already familiar with these topics, being a native of the region.

We are discussing the naming of categories, not articles as you mentioned. To clarify things, I suggest naming them as "North African Scholars" or "Maghrebian Scholars". If they are specifically related to the region, we can label them as "Scholars related to the Maghreb" or "North Africa". I would prefer to continue this debate on the deletion talk page. and the concept of colonizers is open to interpretation. The Romans also colonized Africa, along with the Vandals, so what you are referring to as colonial is quite debatable. Riad Salih (talk) 12:00, 12 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

--HiddenHistoryPedia (talk) 22:34, 11 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]