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Much fake data on Marco Polo being planted. However for historians this is a howler. example Marco never set foot in Kashmir Valley. Neither does Jonaraja nor Srivara mentions this. Carefully planted fake data.

The idea that Marco Polo was of Croatian/Dalmatian origin is far younger than Polo himself, is based on anecdotal evidence, and is not taken seriously outside of Croatia. Yet that hasn't stopped some editors from inserting this fringe theory into the "early life" section, some of whom I suspect were probably involved in the other effort to get "Italian" removed from the lead.

You may want to refer to the Christopher Columbus article for a lesson on how to successfully manage frequent attempts to insert pseudo-historical origin claims into the article (and attempts to get "Italian" out of the lead, which is as big of a nuisance there as it is here). Unless someone can demonstrate that Dalmatian origin speculation is at least a significant minority pov outside of Croatia, it should not appear in this article, and certainly not in a main biographical section. Jonathan f1 (talk) 02:00, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually Christopher Columbus is not a good example since there is (proper) new research suggesting he was a sephardic jew (see [1]) and hence most likely not Italian.--Kmhkmh (talk) 01:59, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here we go again -sorry, but that "research" is just sensationalized nonsense that appears every few years in Spain and then makes its rounds in the media. You cannot use DNA tests to figure out where someone was born, nor even to draw a sharp genetic distinction between regions like Northern Italy and Spain. That isn't how genomic science works.

Needless to say, most editors on the Columbus article are wise to this which is why the lead hasn't changed, despite the frequent talk page attempts to change it.Jonathan f1 (talk) 20:18, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, this part was already relegated to a footnote but somehow managed to find its way back in the main text. Yes, too excessive for the biography article. Tone 13:20, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Tone: the editor's remark is wrong, the Dalmatian origin is demonstrated by cited sources to be a significant minority out of Croatia, and this is not only and mainly about Croatian/Dalmatian fringe theory about the island of Korcula from the 19th century. Exactly the Venetian/Italian sources since the 14th century forward claimed his family was not of a Venetian origin, that they were immigrants, from Dalmatia or elswehere. Those, reliable historical sources, influenced the later fringe theory as well. With the removal was removed two very important parts of the section, the reliably sourced footnotes about origin (and the fact it is archivally unknown), and the fact that there existed separate Polo families which genealogical information and coat of arms are often mistaken in the literature. The section now doesn't represent information about Polo's family origin at all. Some parts could have been trimmed or simply moved to footnotes again.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 14:28, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If editors find such information too excessive for the biography article, meanwhile exist's article like Origin theories of Christopher Columbus, then can be made a separate article Origin theories of Marco Polo as well because non-Venetian birth place/and family origin are mainstream POV.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 14:59, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

These are not mainstream positions among scholars, the historical evidence-based consensus is that Polo was Venetian and Columbus was Genoese. The issue is that both these figures, because of their fame, have been claimed to be from other regions and countries for chauvinistic reasons or rather because of traditions that exist in those areas since some centuries or just because of mistakes. Some sloppy authors have a wrong methodology, they fall for this and try to prove some tradition or claim is true despite the evidence leading clearly somwhere else, but they have always been recognized to be outside of the consensus (what we call fringe views). It's like with mythtical heroes that over time get claimed to be from multiple countries, except these are historical figures and we know where they really came from. So there is a difference between rejected (usualy, altough not necessarily, local) theories and what we know historically. The article on the origin theories of Columbus is essentially a list of wrong theories and makes it clear. Yes, we could do that for Polo too, but it would still need to make it clear what's the historical consensus. Barjimoa (talk) 16:46, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We did have an article on theories on Polo's origin, which was AfD'ed over 10 years ago when it was established that it should not exist because of the reasons mentioned above (fringe stuff). Tone 16:58, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I understand, I can see that happening unfortunately. Barjimoa (talk) 17:04, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know, but also don't see that was the case neither at the time had such information. Again, mainstream sources do mention fringe Korcula (it is good to be mentioned in context of negative reception), but that theory isn't related to other reliably sourced information which was removed without proper substantiation. Removal of that information on the basis of Korcula fringe theory is nonsensical. --Miki Filigranski (talk) 17:18, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Barjimoa: almost nothing you said is true. It is not possible to have a constructive discussion reaching for NPOV if we are going to make claims ignoring what's written in the section (with clear consensus) and don't check what's written in the reliable sources (both historical and modern litetature). --Miki Filigranski (talk) 17:12, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am being constructive. I said I am not generally opposed to have an article like the one we have on Columbus. I am saying it should still make clear what the historical agreement is and that it's a list of theories that do not form a part of the consensus. In that case we can have it. Otherwise, if it's created to counter the consensus here and confuse people, obviously it shouldn't exist. That's my position.Barjimoa (talk) 18:09, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, and it should not be in a main biographical section. The whole rule about "fringe theories" is that they shouldn't be mentioned at all, although sometimes editors try to start separate sections to address those fringe theories that have generated mainstream scholarly pushback. The problem here is that I'm not convinced these Dalmatian theories have inspired any mainstream scholarly dialogue at all, or if most RSes simply ignore them. I think it's time for a literature review. Jonathan f1 (talk) 21:32, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ωφωφωγγ 85.72.191.54 (talk) 18:38, 24 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Cited literature (won't quote in Croatian, although reliable):

in English

• Henry Yule; Henri Cordier (1923), The Travels Of Marco Polo, Mineola: Dover Publications, ISBN 978-0-486-27586-4 -

• Arthur Christopher Moule, Paul Pelliot (1938). Marco Polo: The Description of the World. Vol. 1. London: George Routledge & Sons Limited. -

• Frances Wood (1998), Did Marco Polo Go To China?, Westview Press, ISBN 978-0-8133-8999-8 -

• Laurence Bergreen (2007), Marco Polo: From Venice to Xanadu, Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group, ISBN 978-0-307-26769-6, p. 24 - "Although complete agreement on the origins of the family is lacking, one tradition suggests that the Polos migrated from the Dalmatian town of Sebenico to the Venetian lagoon in 1033 ... Another tradition holds that Marco Polo was born on Curzola, the island where he would later be captured by the Genoese, while a third asserts that Polos had been entrenched in the Venetian lagoon prior to all these events ... The name Polo-Venetian vernacular derived from the Latin Paulus-appears with the frequency in civic records beginning in 971, when a Venetian named Domenico Polo signed a petition forbidding commerce with Arabs, and later entries show that various Polos owned land and salt mines, and served as judges throughout the realm. This activity suggests that Marco Polo's ancestors shuttled between Venice and her embattled satellite, Dalmatia."

• Kathryn Hinds (2002), Venice and Its Merchant Empire, New York -

• Timothy Brook (2010), The Troubled Empire: China in the Yuan and Ming Dynasties, Harvard University Press, ISBN 978-0-674-04602-3, p. 24 - "The Polos, Venetian by the time Marco was born, hailed from the island of Korcula on the far side of the Adriatic Sea in present-day Croatia."

• Olga Orlić (2013). "The curious case of Marco Polo from Korčula: An example of invented tradition". Journal of Marine and Island Cultures. 2 (1): 20–28. Bibcode:2013JMICu...2...20O. doi:10.1016/j.imic.2013.05.001 -

• Edward Peters, Fosco Maraini, "Marco Polo". Encyclopedia Britannica. - "(born c. 1254, Venice [Italy]—died January 8, 1324, Venice) was a Venetian merchant"

in Italian

• See note 1 edited per Moule & Pelliot 1938/Puljiz-Šostik 2015 - "In the old Venetian chronicles, manuscripts and genealogies seemingly is known and mentioned only one Polo family, specifically from San Geremia.[28] According to 14th-century chronicle Venetiarum historia vulgo Petro Iustiniano Iustiniani filio adiudicata they were immigrants to Venice with uncertain origin; mid-15th century chronicle Cronaca di Venezia fino al 1446 alongside family's coat of arms is stated that in old times came from Dalmatia ("antigamente vene de dalmatia"); another mid-15th century document stating the same "veneron antigamente de dalmatia"; Marino Sanuto the Younger in the 16th century claimed Dalmatian origin; Marco Barbaro in Genealogie Patrizie (1566) claims they arrived in 1033 to Venice from Šibenik; two 1600 manuscripts stating they "ueneno de dalmatia", "uene de Dalmatia" and so on.[29][30]"

• Giuseppe Bettinelli (1780). Dizionario Storico-Portatile Di Tutte Le Venete Patrizie Famiglie [Historical Dictionary Of All-Portable Venetian Patrician Families] (in Italian). Venice. p. 126. - "Polo. Vennero dalla Dalmazia. Un f. Nicolò, e Marco fuo Figliuolo, celebrattiffimi viagiatori..."

• Placido Zurla (1818). Di Marco Polo e degli altri viaggiatori veneziani più illustri (in Italian). Vol. 1. Venice: Presso Gio. Giacomo Fuchs. pp. 42–43. -

• Niccolò Tommaseo (1857). Bellezza e civiltà, o delle arti del bello sensibile, studii (in Italian). Florence: Felice Le Monnier. p. 324. -

• "Pòlo, Marco". Treccani (in Italian). Istituto Treccani. Retrieved 17 October 2023. - "Viaggiatore veneziano (Venezia o Curzola 1254 - Venezia 1324)"

• M.G. Chiappori (1998). "Polo, Marco". Enciclopedia dell' Arte Medievale (in Italian). Istituto Treccani. Retrieved 17 October 2023. - "nato nella città lagunare o a Curzola, in Dalmazia, nel 1254 e morto a Venezia nel 1324"

• "Polo, Marco". Dizionario di Storia (in Italian). Istituto Treccani. 2011. Retrieved 17 October 2023. - "Venezia o Curzola 1254-Venezia 1324"

• Giuseppe Gullino (2015). "Polo, Marco". Dizionario Biografico degli Italiani (in Italian). Vol. 84. Istituto Treccani. Retrieved 17 October 2023. - "Nacque a Venezia nel 1254. Suo padre, Nicolò di Andrea, del quale non si conosce la data di nascita, esercitò per lungo tempo la mercatura a Costantinopoli, assieme al fratello Matteo. Risiedeva, in Venezia, probabilmente nella contrada di San Severo; non è noto il nome della moglie."

• Giovanni Vale (28 August 2023). "Marco Polo, homo adriaticus in spite of everything". Osservatorio Balcani e Caucaso Transeuropa. OBCT. Retrieved 17 October 2023. - "According to some, the question is open, so much so that the Treccani aencyclopedia uses a compromise formula, indicating: "Polo, Marco – Venetian traveller (Venice or Korčula 1254 – Venice 1324)". In fact, there is no document that certifies the explorer's birthplace and it seems established that his family had ancient Dalmatian origins, more precisely from Šibenik. At the time, these disquisitions made little sense, as all these territories belonged to the same state: the Republic of Venice, which controlled almost the entire eastern coast of the Adriatic. Today, however, the debate is alive. On the Italian side, scholars such as Alvise Zorzi, author among other things of a biography of the explorer, argue that "there is no doubt that Marco Polo was Venetian, his family had been Venetian since the 10th century". The Croatian side, on the other hand, insists that a certain "DePolo" family owned some houses in Korčula, even if the one that has been referred to for years as the traveller's birthplace was built at least two centuries after his death. It's not much, but enough to fuel the local tourist narrative."

• Alvise Zorzi (1981, 2000). Vita di Marco Polo veneziano. Bompiani, ISBN 9788845290251 - ?

• Tiziana Plebani (ed.; 2019). Il testamento di Marco Polo. Il documento, la storia, il contesto. Milano, Edizioni Unicopli, ISBN 9788840020518 - ?

Here is a list, which we can all edit, those without quotes need to be cited as well for review. --Miki Filigranski (talk) 00:33, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate you taking the time to present these sources, but it would've been more helpful to quote chapter, verse and context for all of them considering most of us don't have access to them and wouldn't have the time to read them anyway. I want other editors to weigh in, but my personal opinion is that you've come close to making a case that some mention of origin theories may be due, but not in one of the main biographical sections. Quoting Giovanni Vale again:

"The Croatian side, on the other hand, insists that a certain "DePolo" family owned some houses in Korčula, even if the one that has been referred to for years as the traveller's birthplace was built at least two centuries after his death. It's not much, but enough to fuel the local tourist narrative."

He is indeed correct about this, and in fact they've got a museum in Korcula next to this house they claim Polo was born in, despite the fact that it was built well after Polo died. In your other sources they cite "15th Century" documents to back this claim, which are highly speculative to say the least.

This is pretty much what happened with Columbus -an Italian explorer became famous, and then everyone wanted to claim him as their own centuries after the fact. Many of your sources talk about "ancient Dalmatian" ancestors, which may be of genealogical interest but so what? Polo is a Venetian surname and I'd venture to guess that many Medieval Venetians had some Dalmatian ancestors. We are not in the habit of speculating whether famous Italians had "Lombard" ancestors or "Norman" ancestors, and we can assume that many of them probably did. But if this is to bolster a Croatian tourist industry narrative, I fail to see the encyclopedic relevance. Jonathan f1 (talk) 19:38, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• There has also been dispute as to whether the Polo family is of Venetian origin because their exact origin is also unknown.^[1]

I don't know what would be Fringe here, or excessive detail?

• There existed at least two families of the same surname in Venice, one in the San Geremia district, and another in the San Giovanni Grisostomo where was Marco's family house (he is mentioned in 1323 as Marco Paulo de confinio Sancti Iohannis Grisostomi^[2]), and their members and coat of arms are often mistaken in the sources.^[3]

I don't know what would be Fringe here, or excessive detail?

• Some Venetian sources of the 15th and 16th centuries considered that the family Polo was of Dalmatian origin.^{[nb 1][7][8][9]}

I don't know what would be Fringe here, or excessive detail? If we have "The Travels of Marco Polo" from 13th-century travelogue written down by Rustichello da Pisa, I don't know why there would not be Venetian sources, that is informations from the 15-16 centuries in the article?

• Placido Zurla in the early 19th century noted that in the historical sources there is a lack of any specific mention related to Polo's family,^[10]while Niccolò Tommaseo in the mid-19th century considered Dalmatian origin of the family.^[11]

I don't know what would be Fringe here? Possibly an outdated secondary sources.

• Some scholars such as Alvise Zorzi argue Venetian origin and that it can be traced up to the 10th century.^{[nb 2][14]}

This could be a fringe context considering that probably no one connects Polo with Venice and the origin which occurs since 10th century.

• According to another disputed theory their origin and Polo's birthplace was on the island of Korčula,^[7] which is influenced by Ramusio's account about Polo's capture during the Battle of Curzola (1298).^[15]

I don't know what would be Fringe here? Possible excessive detail but it can fit in with other sources that mention Korčula. Mikola22 (talk) 18:27, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You've been at this for four years, first in an effort to get the lead changed from "Italian" to "Venetian" (Venetians are and always were Italians), and now in an attempt to push this Dalmatian theory into the main body of the article. Please don't clutter up this section with a dozen more links -comment on the sources Miki has presented. Jonathan f1 (talk) 19:41, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Marco Polo was born around 1254 in Venice, but the exact date and place of birth are archivally unknown.

This is information from the article. The editors probably wanted to combine the sources which say that Polo was born in Venice and the sources which say that it is not known from the archives where he was born. However, this wording from the article is not clear and does not convey the context of all sources, which falls under the rank of OR, considering that the wording "but the exact date and place of birth are archivally unknown" can also mean a specific part of Venice, the suburbs, etc.

To avoid the OR context, I suggest that we formulate the second part of the sentence like this: "however, there is no archival material which would prove that Polo was born in Venice". Mikola22 (talk) 15:57, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've got news for you -we can't "prove" where most pre-modern people were born, and we don't need to do that here. There's scholarly consensus that he was born in Venice, and various sources describing his purported Korculan origins as an "invented tradition" that was popularized only in the 20th Century interwar period. [2].

" I will not advocate any of the viewpoints in the birthplace controversy, especially because there are a dizzying number of claims over the origin of the Polo family, if not of Marco Polo himself."

"it should be noted that historians have only verified one fact connecting Marco Polo to Korčula island, namely, that he was captured near the island during a naval battle between Venetian and Genoese naval forces (Foretić, 1940: 70) and was imprisoned on the island for several days before being transferred to the Genoese prison where he dictated the book that made him famous (Gjivoje, 1969: 47–48). However, associating Marco Polo with Korčula Island became more popular after 1922, when Korčula became interested in tourist development." Jonathan f1 (talk) 19:50, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"No archival material could prove he was born in Venice" is not a phrasing I would use. The Polos appear in the archives of Venice, what we don't have is something akin to a birth or baptism certificate...but the thing is that it's pretty common to lack such hard evidence for the birth of historical figures, especially non-nobles. Possibly the phrase could be removed entirely, the lack of such a document has been relevant only to those who tried to argue that Marco Polo was not from Venice, to the rest of it's just kinda expected.Barjimoa (talk) 07:11, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The context of part of the source is that it is not archivally confirmed, but with a possible other place where Polo originates from. So leaving only information which says that Polo was born in Venice I don't know how it is in line with the rules of wiki if there are other sources which don't confirm it. Mikola22 (talk) 08:22, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's 100% in line with the rules of a mainstream encyclopedia that goes by mainstream consensus -which in this case agrees Polo was born in Venice. It's deceptive to present these different origin theories as if they're all on the same scholarly footing -the non-Venetian origin claims are far more unlikely than the traditional view that he was a Venetian from Venice. To expect that there should be something like a birth certificate for someone born in the 13th Century and then to use the absence of documentation to bolster an alternative origin claim (on such ridiculous reasoning like linking him to vaguely similar surnames and 15th Century hearsay), is nonsense. Jonathan f1 (talk) 18:44, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I find the section Arts, entertainment, and media perhaps a bit too trivial, listing video games from centuries after his time. I don't know what other editors think?--Marginataen (talk) 10:49, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello My name is vicky,and I love working with Wikipedia, fixing/improving Wikipedia facts. I would appreciate if you would let me improve your document! Vickyyy78 (talk) 16:08, 11 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. If you are looking to make edits directly, you can either reach auto-confirmed status or request for the page to be unprotected. Aston305 (talk) 17:42, 11 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In 1275, Marco Polo and his family reached the court of Kublai Khan in Shangdu, after their long journey through Asia. The Mongol Empire, at its height, stretched across vast regions, making it one of the largest empires in history. Kublai Khan, grandson of Genghis Khan, had established a powerful rule and maintained a court that attracted many foreign visitors. The Polo family was welcomed warmly, and Marco quickly became a trusted figure within the empire. His ability to speak several languages and his knowledge of Western customs made him an invaluable asset to Kublai Khan. Marco’s role in the court evolved as he was appointed to various administrative positions, serving as an intermediary between the Mongols and other foreign nations. His work included overseeing trade, managing taxes, and assisting with diplomatic relations. During his time at the court, Marco traveled throughout the empire on missions for the Khan, gaining first-hand knowledge of its vast territories and diverse cultures. Marco Polo’s experiences in the Mongol Empire provided him with a unique perspective on Asian life. He traveled to places like the Yuan capital, Beijing, and explored regions in China, Tibet, and Persia. His observations of the culture, economy, and political systems were detailed and often vivid, painting a picture of a thriving and sophisticated civilization. Polo’s encounters with the Mongols and their vast empire deepened his understanding of the East, and he became a valuable confidant of Kublai Khan. Marco also witnessed the Mongols' advanced technologies, such as paper money and efficient postal systems, which impressed him. His stories about China, including its cities, infrastructure, and wealth, captivated European readers. Marco Polo’s accounts were written down in the book The Travels of Marco Polo, which became one of the most influential travel narratives of the medieval world. His descriptions of the Mongol court, the grand cities of China, and the customs of the East were unlike anything Europeans had ever heard before. Though many in Europe doubted the accuracy of his accounts, Marco’s travels sparked curiosity and led to an increased interest in the East. His stories inspired later explorers, including Christopher Columbus, who was influenced by Polo’s descriptions of Asia. Despite skepticism over the years, Marco Polo’s legacy endures as one of the first Europeans to provide detailed accounts of Asia and its wonders. His journeys bridged cultural gaps and opened the door for further exploration and trade between Europe and Asia, leaving a lasting imprint on history. TTTSTORM (talk) 14:38, 14 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Marco Polo's journey to the East stands as a pivotal moment in history, bridging the gap between Europe and Asia and igniting a flame of curiosity that would fuel centuries of exploration and trade. Born in Venice in 1254, Marco inherited a legacy of trade and adventure from his father and uncle, who were already seasoned merchants with connections to the East. This familial background, coupled with a solid education that emphasized languages and diverse cultures, prepared him for the extraordinary experiences that awaited him. His family's established network proved instrumental in facilitating his access to the court of Kublai Khan, the powerful Mongol ruler.

In 1271, the 17-year-old Marco embarked on a transformative odyssey along the legendary Silk Road, accompanied by his father and uncle. This arduous journey, spanning several years, exposed them to the diverse landscapes and cultures of Central Asia. The Silk Road, a network of trade routes connecting East and West, served as a conduit for not only goods but also ideas and cultural exchange. Finally reaching the opulent court of Kublai Khan, Marco's intelligence and linguistic abilities quickly garnered the Khan's favor. He was not merely a passive observer; he became an integral part of the Mongol administration, serving in various capacities and traveling extensively throughout the vast empire. These travels provided him with invaluable firsthand knowledge of China's intricate culture, thriving economy, and diverse geography. He witnessed marvels that were unknown to Europeans, such as the sophisticated use of paper money and the efficiency of the Mongol postal system. His time in the Mongol Empire profoundly shaped his understanding of the East, transforming him from a merchant's son into a chronicler of a world unknown to most Europeans. After 24 years in the East, he returned to Venice, laden not just with goods but with captivating tales of his adventures.

Marco Polo's legacy rests primarily on his book, "The Travels of Marco Polo," which became an instant sensation across Europe. It offered a tantalizing glimpse into the rich and sophisticated civilizations of the East, painting vivid pictures of bustling cities, exotic customs, and unimaginable wealth. His accounts sparked a fervent curiosity and a burgeoning desire for trade with Asia, fueling the ambitions of merchants and explorers alike. Perhaps most significantly, Marco Polo's narratives served as a powerful inspiration for future explorers, most notably Christopher Columbus, who, driven by the descriptions of the East, sought a westward route to the Indies. While some skepticism surrounded his accounts, their impact on European perceptions of the world was undeniable. Marco Polo's journey, therefore, transcended the realm of personal adventure. It played a crucial role in bridging the gap between East and West, fostering cultural exchange, and ushering in an era of increased global interconnectedness. His legacy endures as a testament to the power of travel, observation, and storytelling in shaping our understanding of the world. TTTSTORM (talk) 10:21, 17 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]