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Stream or wadi

Is this watercourse a stream or a wadi? I note that a change in the opening paragraph was made anonymously yesterday. Both terms are referred to in the alternative names in use. BobKilcoyne (talk) 04:30, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@BobKilcoyne realistically it seems to be an Israeli stream, Besor Stream, flowing into a Palestinian river valley, Wadi Gaza? I don't know why this describes them as one thing? If this is about both, there might be a name for the whole system that the page should have? BottleOfSoup (talk) 22:49, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Synonyms or different things?

Is Besor Stream really the same as Wadi Gaza? Or is Besor Steam a tributary that runs into Wadi Gaza valley / wetlands? BottleOfSoup (talk) 22:46, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Geography Section

The geography section is a bit of a mess. It needs to be put on order to follow along the course of the river, down stream probably works best. But I'm not sure what order that would be without a better map? BottleOfSoup (talk) 05:43, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Explanation of my lede rewrite

The common name is the Besor, as evidenced by the sources. Similar to Jerusalem. The river is in the Gaza Strip and Israel and divides the Strip in half. It is one river and does not have a tributary that spills out at the Israel-Gaza border. The Wadi Gaza reserve is not relevant to the lede and is mentioned in the body, especially because it has been severly damaged in the Gaza war. Closetside (talk) 18:55, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Upon further thought, we don't need the fact that it divides the Gaza Strip in half in the lede. This is evident from the map and from the Geography section. Closetside (talk) 19:03, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
While boldness is part of Wikipedia, given the topic area I think that consensus should have been established before moving the page. Richard Nevell (talk) 19:06, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The new title was moved without consensus en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wadi_Gaza_and_Besor_Stream&diff=prev&oldid=1217251590 Closetside (talk) 19:11, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Heck, by a sockpuppet BottleOfSoup. Closetside (talk) 19:13, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

M.Bitton please give the quote saying the Nahal Besor's source is in the West Bank. Also please ensure you are not referring to the Nahal Gerar or the Nahal Beersheba. From the map in Nahal Gerar it seems to be inaccurate. Closetside (talk) 19:50, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 6 March 2025

Wadi Gaza and Besor Stream → Nahal Besor – This is the common name of the stream and an anglicized variant (Besor Stream) was the name until it was moved without consensus or discussion. There is no other tributary of the Wadi Gaza; it is the same stream as the Besor Closetside (talk) 19:26, 6 March 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 16:22, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Split The evidence presented above shows that both names for the river are in common use. Google Scholar is a crude measure, but it doesn't indicate that one is overwhelmingly more common than the other to the point that it should be the default title. If we were considering two topics vying for a single spot there would be a good case for a disambiguation page with neither bring the primary topic. Where I have encountered the topic is in literature about archaeological sites in the Gaza Strip, and they commonly refer to the Wadi Gaza. When referring to the feature as such in one Wikipedia article it does not seem appropriate to direct readers to one titled Nahal Besor. I have gone through sources used in the articles on Tell es-Sakan, Al-Moghraqa, and Taur Ikhbeineh

Just wadi Gaza

Uses both

  • Horwitz, Liora Kolska; Tchernov, Eitan; Mienis, Henk K.; Hakker-Orion, Dalia; Bar-Yosef Mayer, Daniella (2002). "The archaeozoology of three Early Bronze Age sites in Nahal Besor, northwestern Negev". In van den Brink, Edwin C. M.; Yannai, Eli (eds.). In Quest of Ancient Settlement and Landscapes: Archaeological Studies in Honour of Ram Gophna. Ramot Publishing and Tel Aviv University. pp. 107–133.
    Covers length of the watercourse beyond Gaza. “Nahal Besor (also known as Wadi Ghazzah), is a seasonal stream forming the major drainage channel of the Beersheva basin”
  • Oren, Eliezer D.; Yekutieli, Yuval (1992). "Taur Ikhbeineh: Earliest Evidence for Egyptian Interconnections". In van den Brink, Edwin C. M. (ed.). The Nile Delta in Transition: 4th–3rd Millennium B.C. Tel Aviv: Israel Exploration Society. pp. 361–384.
    Written when Gaza was an occupied territory, and a different toponymy appears to have been preferred by the researchers. The Arabic name is given on the first occurrence: “Taur Ikhbeineh is located … on the west bank of Nahal Besor (Wadi Gaza, Wady Ghazzeh), about 3 km from the Mediterranean”
  • de Miroschedji, Pierre; Sadeq, Moain (2008). "Sakan, Tell es-". The New Encyclopedia of Archaeological Excavations in the Holy Land. Vol. 5: Supplementary Volume. Israel Exploration Society/Biblical Archaeology Society (BAS). Archived from the original on 23 June 2024. Retrieved 23 June 2024 – via BAS Library.
    ”Located on the northern bank of Naḥal Besor (Wadi ‘Azza)”. This contrasts with De Miroschedji and Sadeq’s other publications on Tell es-Sakan which mention the Wadi Gaza but not the Nahal Besor. Those in French are not listed above, but their 2005 paper in English is. The contrast may be due to a different editorial process as the New Encyclopaedia of Archaeological Excavation in the Holy Land is published by the Israel exploration Society.

This is what informs my thinking. I do not present it as comprehensive, but it appears to me that there is generally a consensus that when the stretch of the watercourse in the Gaza Strip is being referred to it is named the Wadi Gaza. Oren 1992 is the exception amongst the above, but was written in a political context where the local name was given secondary consideration.

The other side of the equation is that given that Nahal Besor is commonly used by Israel readers at articles referring to the Nahal Besor would expect the article they arrive at when following a link to reflect that.

As both terms are in use and used in different contexts, I think there is scope for a significant change: splitting this page into two so there is an article on the Wadi Gaza and another on Nahal Besor. They can have different scopes. The article on the Wadi Gaza can note its historical usage while focusing on the present day extent, ie: the watercourse within the Gaza Strip. There are well documented challenges with sewage discharging into the Wadi Gaza, and that poses ecological problems that aren't faced upstream. It also appears prone to flooding whereas the portion of the watercourse further upstream is less so. And I don't think the part in Gaza has any dams or reservoirs, contrasting with the stretch in Israel. By necessity there would be overlap between the two pages, and they should signpost clearly to each other, but this is consistent with the principle of writing in a summary style; each could have a section summarising key points of the other article and different articles can have different levels of detail. Richard Nevell (talk) 01:02, 13 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It is clear from the uses both section they are the same stream; hence I oppose splitting. More formally, a split would violate WP:REDUNDANTFORK, because the articles would be about the same stream. Splitting would also deviate from the standard set by Nahal Alexander, Nahal Sorek, Hadera Stream, or the Lakhish River, or any other stream in Israel, Palestine, or both, with an etymologically different Hebrew and Arabic name.
From every example where both terms are used, Besor is preferred to Gaza. Furthermore, the scholarly literature slightly favors Besor to Gaza. Hence, move to Besor. Closetside (talk) 04:39, 13 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
As outlined above, the proposed split would create two pages with different scope. By a strict reading the terms are interchangeable, but their use in the literature shows that they are used in different contexts. It is similar to how we have an article on châteaux and one on castles. Changing the emphasis to be about the use of the terms makes them distinct subjects. Richard Nevell (talk) 07:42, 13 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This is different. Chateaus are a subset of castles, but there is only one Nahal Besor. See WP:NCRIVER which clearly suggests one page with Nahal Besor as its name. The relevant section is quoted below.

Some rivers have names with multiple spellings which vary with the different countries the rivers pass through. An example would be the Cunene River in Angola, which is known as the Kunene River in Namibia. Occasionally, a river can have several genuinely distinct names. For example, the Cuando River not only has the variant spelling Kwando, it's also called the Linyanti and the Chobe. The following rules are suggested for choosing a primary name for such a river:

  • If the river is particularly famous or most commonly mentioned under one name, then choose that name.
  • If the section of the river that uses a particular name is much longer than other sections, then use that as the name.
  • If everything else is equal, then choose the name for the section of the river closest to the river's mouth, since generally that is where the river is widest.
It is important that all the alternate names redirect to the name chosen for the article title. This helps prevent the creation of duplicate articles.
It is clear that Besor is preferred to Gaza (it outnumbers Gaza in the literature and when both are mentioned, Besor is always given precedence). Considering that, even if the advantage isn't significant enough, Gaza is not the common name. If so, because the upper section (where Besor is used) is much longer than the lower section (where Gaza is used), Nahal Besor should be the name. Closetside (talk) 02:42, 2 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Rivers has been notified of this discussion. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 16:22, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'll give you an example. The lower (Israeli) portion of the Hasbani River is referred to as Nahal Snir (see he:נחל שניר). Should I restrict the Hasbani article to the upper (Lebanese) portion and create a standalone Nahal Snir article for the lower portion? I don't think so and in order for your position to be consistent, you must defend this spinoff, in my opinion. Closetside (talk) 02:45, 2 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Lede content discussion

That doesn't explain why you removed the sourced content. Was it to make it fit the title that you're after? M.Bitton (talk) 19:33, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yep. Alright, I will include the Arabic name in the title as infobox as well. Closetside (talk) 19:36, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That doesn't come close to explaining the sourced content removal. M.Bitton (talk) 19:42, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The only thing I didn't restore was the nature reserve's rehabilitation in 2022 which is not pertinent, considering the Gaza war. Closetside (talk) 19:44, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It is in the body Closetside (talk) 19:44, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I restored the source content. I've got other things to do and I will rewrite if and after this RM succeeds. Closetside (talk) 19:57, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Allikas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wadi_Gaza_and_Besor_Stream
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