Talk:Ostjuden

Good articleOstjuden has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
September 6, 2025Good article nomineeListed
Did You Know
A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on October 1, 2025.
The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the Ostjuden anti-Semitic stereotype was used to describe Jews from Eastern Europe by both non-Jewish Germans and assimilated German Jews?

GA review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ostjuden/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Gitz6666 (talk · contribs) 14:29, 1 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Borsoka (talk · contribs) 11:49, 30 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

  1. Is it well written?
    A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:
    B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:
  2. Is it verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check?
    A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:
    B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose):
    C. It contains no original research:
    D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:
    B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):
  4. Is it neutral?
    It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:
  5. Is it stable?
    It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:
  6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?
    A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:
    B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:

Source review

Re I am not sure reference 74 verifies the sentence. You are right, this can be improved. Reference 74 (Roth 2001, p. 2, quoted in Volková 2021, p. 22 and Fuchs 1999, p. 88) is intended to support both the preceding quote ("there may still be readers from whom the Eastern Jews do not require protection") and the subsequent one ("readers with respect for pain, for human greatness ... who feel they might have something to learn from the East..."). Both of these appear in Roth 2001, p. 2, but their relevance (due weight) depends only on the secondary source Volková 2021, p. 22 [1] (quoting "they might have something to learn from the East"). However, Fuchs 1999, p. 88 [2] does not quote that passage, but rather the immediately preceding one ("This book does not want to be read by those who deny their own fathers and forefathers"). Therefore, the reference to Fuchs should be dropped: [3]. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 09:14, 5 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Re Delete at least 3 references after the sentence introducing the concept "cult of the Ostjuden". If I understand your concern correctly, you want to avoid the problem of WP:CITEKILL. However, the cited sources are of high quality and could be useful for readers who wish to research the topic further. To address this, I have bundled the multiple citations into a single footnote per WP:BUNDLING: [4] and [5]. I hope this resolves your concern. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 09:24, 5 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:KLEZPO.png: specify the source and add an US PD tag at Commons.
    • Could the source be more specific (editor(s)/author(s), title, publisher, year of publishing, isbn or other identifier)?
  • File:Jewish pogrom in Kiev (1881).jpg: I understand a PD tag for the source country is needed at Commons.
  • File:Das ostjüdische Antlitz cover2.jpg: @Nikkimaria: may I ask your comments on this specific image's copyright status?
  • File:Joseph Roth (1926).jpg: US PD tag is missing at Commons. Borsoka (talk) 11:59, 30 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The tagging does not appear to be consistent with what's given at the source. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:58, 30 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • The precise origins of the term Ostjude are difficult to trace. I would specify that this is a German term, and also add an English translation.

 Done

  • ...the term had acquired a decidedly pejorative connotation I would clarify the geographical or sociological scope ("in Germany/in German speaking communities/...").

 Done

  • As far as I know, in Austria-Hungary, the term Galitsianer denoted eastern Jews. If I am right, could this fact be mentioned in the article.

 Done Excellent suggestion! Thanks

  • I would avoid the use of the adverb "etc."

 Done

 Done

  • When mentioning "Central and Eastern European Jews", I would also mention and link Ashkenazi Jews.
Comment: I'm not sure about this. I see three problems: (1) German Jews were also predominantly Ashkenazi; (2) Sephardi Jews lived in parts of Eastern Europe, especially in areas under Ottoman influence such as the Balkans and Romania; (3) consequently it is difficult to find sources that explicitly link the term Ostjuden to Ashkenazi Jews. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 10:51, 17 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • The anti-Jewish stereotype of the Ostjude became a focal point for antisemitism, antislavism and xenophobia, attracting hostility from both openly antisemitic non-Jewish Germans and assimilated Jewish Germans alike. A citation is needed. What is the connection between antislavism and antisemitism?

 Done. Added reference - Wertheimer. Re antislavism and xenophobia, see cited pages: "pronounced anti-Polish and xenophobic tendencies", "products of the backward East, speakers of inferior languages", "were often identified with the culture of Halbasien — backward Asia ... they were labeled Sklaven (Slavs). Polnische Schnorrer or Galizische Schnorrer were commonly assumed to be Eastern Jews—and vice versa", "German officials gave free expression to their xenophobia and anti-Semitism". Gitz (talk) (contribs) 11:26, 17 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • Among the former,...Among the latter,... Avoid them.

 Done

  • Explain "March" with one or two words in the main text.

 Done

  • This is evident in the film The Eternal Jew (1940) and the political rhetoric of the Völkischer Beobachter, Goebbels and other figures within the Nazi regime who stoked fears about the "danger of the Ostjuden". Split or rephrase. I think chronology should also be followed.

 Done

  • ...an autonomous and flourishing... Is "autonomous" the best adjective?

 Done (removed)

  • Be consequent when mentioning WWI and link it when it is first mentioned (if you want to link it at all).

 Done

  • ...(see § The cult of the Ostjuden, below)... Delete.

 Done

  • The first paragraph of the second section repeats information mentioned in the previous section.

 Done You're absolutely right. It took quite a bit of effort to follow this suggestion but I think I've managed to resolve the issue. The first section, "Etymology", was overloaded: it included material on the cultural history of the Eastern Jews that fit in the second section, "Eastern European Jews in Germany". So I moved them there and left a streamlined, better-focued Etymology section while expanding the "core" section about the Ostjuden debate. I hope this is an improvement [6]. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 15:22, 17 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • I would change the sequence of second and third sections.

 Done Did I understand your suggestion correctly? [7] The (sub)section on Joseph Roth comes before the section titled "After 1945". Right now, they're both subsections of "Eastern European Jews in Germany". Does that make sense? Gitz (talk) (contribs) 15:31, 17 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • ...an estimated 2.4 to 2.7 million .fled Europe... Europe or the Russian Empire?
Comment:. The source (Vital) says Europe. As to immigration from Russia specifically, the source says "Precise figures on emigration out of Russia are unobtainable, however. The Russian authorities kept no tally". Gitz (talk) (contribs) 15:36, 17 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • This influx of predominantly poor and less-educated Eastern European Jews[39] into Western European Jewish communities provoked mixed reactions. Some Western European Jews reacted with dismay and hostility to the "sudden appearance on their doorsteps of a huge, untidy, endlessly marching army of distant cousins from the east". Repeats information from the first section. The quote should be attributed to someone in the main text.

 Done

 Done

  • ..."with sympathy and human warmth the life of the ghetto, stylising it in Gemütlichkeit in a warm intimacy" Name the scholar who said it in the main text.

 Done

  • ...casting him... Him?

 Done them

  • ...Hasidic tales... Italicise if it is a title. A wikilink?

 Done

  • Introduce Baioni, Zweig, Herzl, Pinsker, Birnbaum with one or two words.

 Done

  • I would follow chronology in section "The cult of the Ostjuden".

 Done This was quite difficult and I hope the result is OK [8]. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:45, 17 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • Roth sympathetically describes the suffering of Eastern European Jews ("The Eastern Jew fails to see the beauty of the East. He has not been allowed to live in villages or in big cities. Here Jews live in dirty streets and collapsing houses. Their Christian neighbours threaten them. The local squire beats them. The officer has them locked up. The army officer fires his gun at them with impunity") and their urge to emigrate to the West ("Newspapers, books, and optimistic emigrants all tell him what a paradise the West is") I would move the quotes to footnotes. Borsoka (talk) 08:14, 17 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:52, 17 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for addressing the issues. I will continue the review on Monday. Borsoka (talk) 09:18, 18 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Borsoka, just to let you know that I'm going on holiday and won't be able to work on the GAN review until 11 August. Best, Gitz (talk) (contribs) 12:27, 28 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I still feel that the article contains too many repetitions. For example, in the section "Eastern European Jews in Germany" it is mentioned several times that Ostjuden were seen as lazy, filthy, etc. The contrast between assimilated, secular Western Jews and the Hasidic Ostjuden also comes up more than once. At the same time, I miss a short introduction about who the Ostjuden were and how they migrated to Germany. Right now, the section "Eastern European Jews in Germany" presents them as if they were already there from the early 19th century, while the following section about the pogroms in Russia suggests that their westward migration only began around 1880. Do you see the same issues, or do you think I might be overemphasizing them? Borsoka (talk) 08:32, 26 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I see the issues you mentioned and I'll try to address them tomorrow. Thanks, Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:52, 26 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Borsoka, my last edits [9] partly address the issues you raised removing unnecessary repetitions of negative qualities and clarifying that Eastern European Jews in Germany predated their mass migration following the Russian pogroms. However, I have some difficulties in addressing The contrast between assimilated, secular Western Jews and the Hasidic Ostjuden also comes up more than once. You are right: the contrast is mentioned both in "Eastern European Jews in Germany" and in "Fleeing the pogroms of the Russian Empire". However, the only way I can see to address this would be to unify the two sections into a single one (e.g., "Eastern European Jews in Germany and elsewhere") and to merge the content about The traditionalist orthodox orientation of Eastern Jews, as opposed to the liberal-reformist orientation prevalent in German Judaism with adherence to Hasidism, which clashed with the Enlightenment and bourgeois values. I'm not sure that would be an improvement, though... Maybe I'm missing something very simple and am open to any suggestion if you have ideas about how to improve/streamline/simplify the article by avoiding repetitions. Thanks, Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:40, 27 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I fully understand your concern. I will reread the article by the end of the weekend, keeping your remarks in mind. Borsoka (talk) 10:54, 29 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I'm confident that the issue you noted about chronology has now been resolved here [10][11]. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 11:37, 29 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • ...in the closed backwardness... I would delete the noun. Alternatively, you could describe it as a PoV.
  • Explain "shtetls" with two or three words.
  • Often credited with coining the terms "Ostjude" and "Zionism",... Delete (partly repetition, partly irrelevant).
  • ...what has been called the "cult of the Ostjuden"... By whom?
  • Italicise the first word in the lead.
  • (lead) ...refer to Jews from Central and Eastern Europe... Central?
  • Make sure that each linked term is only linked once in the main text.
  • If you mention somebody more than once, you can leave their first name when they are mentioned for the second, third, ... times. Borsoka (talk) 04:02, 1 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
     Done Gitz (talk) (contribs) 11:02, 1 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I really enjoyed going through this carefully researched article. It could be worth requesting a peer review to get some additional suggestions for improvement. Borsoka (talk) 04:20, 6 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. You can locate your hook here.No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by TarnishedPath talk 10:26, 25 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

An Eastern European Jew in frontal portrait, print by Hermann Struck (1932)
An Eastern European Jew in frontal portrait, print by Hermann Struck (1932)
  • ... that the anti-Semitic stereotype of the Ostjuden was used in Germany to describe Jews from Eastern Europe in a derogatory manner by both non-Jewish Germans and assimilated German Jews alike?
  • Source: 1) Kałczewiak 2021, p. 295-296 [12]: "In the 1920’s and 1930’s, in the light of growing nationalism in Germany, the word “Ostjuden” was usually read as a slur (...) By constructing the stereotype of an “Ostjude” Germans and German Jews ignored the diversity of Eastern European Jewish culture and constructed narrow and discriminatory categories (...) In early twentieth century German-Jewish discourse, Eastern European Jews were defined by their presumed characteristics of backwardness, excessive piousness, and unchangeability." 2) Aschheim 1982b, p. 61 [13]: "the very notion of the "Eastern Jew", or "Ostjude", was likewise the outcome of the embourgeoisement of Jewish life and consciousness in Western Europe. The actual expression "Ostjude" became widespread only in the early 20th century, but all its characteristics - negative and positive - had been delineated earlier under different names. Although there were exceptions, East European Jews were generally considered to be loud, coarse, and dirty (...) It is important to note that German "progressives", Jews and antisemites alike, appeared to repudiate the physical and spiritual characteristics associated with East European Jewish life (...) It comes as no surprise that most antisémites propagated negative views of the ghetto (...). But why did West European and German Jews do so? Eastern ghettos became a symbolic construct by which emergent Jewry could distinguish itself from their less fortunate, unenlightened, and unemancipated East European brothers". 3) Beck 2022 [14]: "The most disapproving attitude toward “Ostjuden” was displayed by Max Naumann’s Association of National German Jews (...) “To the national German Jew,” Naumann wrote in 1920, “the Ostjude is a stranger – a stranger emotionally, spiritually, physically (...) For us, the Ostjuden problem is not a Jewish, but rather a German problem."
  • ALT1: ... that in the years leading up to the First World War, some German Jews look upon the Ostjuden with admiration, seeing them as the embodiment of a more authentic form of Jewish life? Source: 1) Beck 2022 [15]: "The attitude of established German Jews vis-à-vis “Ostjuden” was characterized by ambiguity (...) for Zionists and national-oriented Jewish or Orthodox circles the encounter with the wider sphere of Judaism offered the opportunity of a renewal of faith and a revival of their own unique identity." 2) Saß 2017 [16]: "In addition to the negative interpretation, a certain admiration for the Polish Jews who retained their Jewish tradition and culture had existed constantly as early as the 19th century (...) Around the turn of the century, in the course of the Jewish renaissance, an explicitly positive countermyth of the “Ostjuden” developed, which was contrasted with Western Jewry as the authentic representative of Jewish life." 3) Aschheim 1982a, p. 191 [17]: "the cult of the Ostjuden was one important expression of the rebellion of German Jewish youth against German Jewish bourgeois life. Middleclass smugness and shallowness were rejected. Eastern Jews were seen as a genuine national proletariat, authentic embodiments of a proud tradition, foil to everything that these young Jews disliked in their own homes."
  • Reviewed:
Improved to Good Article status by Gitz6666 (talk). Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has fewer than 5 past nominations.

Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:04, 7 September 2025 (UTC).[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
QPQ: Done.

Overall: Article newly promoted to GA, long enough, well-sourced, and neutral. While the picture is free and clear, it's a little too decorative, and I'd recommend against using promoting it. ALT0 preferred over ALT1, but as it is rather rambly currently, I'd suggest trimming it to ALT0a: ... that the Ostjuden anti-Semitic stereotype was used to describe Jews from Eastern Europe by both non-Jewish Germans and assimilated German Jews? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:48, 8 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your suggestions, AirshipJungleman29. I agree with trimming the hook the way you suggested. Regarding the image, I think it nicely conveys how some Jewish intellectuals reinterpreted and overturned the Ostjude stereotype, but if you feel it's too much, let's drop it. --Gitz (talk) (contribs) 18:22, 8 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
allikas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ostjuden