The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 23:30, 29 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Starry vault (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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I really hope we can save this, but this substub as written, referenced to a Prezi and a a passing mention in a book (Angela K. Nickerson (July 2010). A Journey Into Michelangelo's Rome. ReadHowYouWant.com. ISBN 978-1-4587-8547-3. has a major problem: this term seems to be not-notable. I tried Google Books, Scholar, News, and general google: it is used, but not a lot, and the mentions are in passing. I cannot find this defined anywhere, and as such it seems not a real architectural term, just a nice phrase that lacks notability. Again, the topic is interesting, and perhaps someone can find better sources? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:55, 21 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep There are other sources available, but lacking time this week to go through my personal library or online sources I haven't added them, only what I found to support the Sistine Chapel statement. It's a widely used ecclesiatical design motif, and I was going to see what could be found to expand it into Islamic architecture. However, it peaked around the 13th century, so online sources are generally poor, as with many other topics relating to medieval architecture and design. Deletion discussions are not meant to be an alternative to sourcing, and quick nominations on topics like this short-circuit research in print. Given Wikipedia's abysmal coverage of the visual arts, I'm not keen on characterizing basic articles on design as "sub-stubs" (which this is not) and consigning them to deletion discussions. I know of at least one local Richard Upjohn church with a starry vault, so it's a recurring motif to at least the 19th century, but we're not going to find a monograph on starry vaults, it's just one of a menu of fundamental elements that belong in an encyclopedia. Acroterion (talk) 17:38, 21 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We really need to do something about article structure in this area in general: Star Vault, a related (and somewhat confusing-to-laymen) topic, goes to a Swedish games company when it should be a disambiguation to at least a section in rib vault (which is unreferenced and copied from public domain, but is a fundamental architectural topic). I suppose capitalization helps to distinguish, but of the two topics one is ephemeral, yet has its own article. Acroterion (talk) 17:56, 21 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• • @Acroterion: A lot of sources are digitized. If you don't have time to go to library, may I point you in direction of Google Books and Library Genesis? Through I tried both, and I couldn't find a single source that would define the starry vault concept. All we have so far are mentions in passing, and those are IMHO not sufficient to confer notability. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:21, 27 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Am looking for sources. Does need more. Good sources are difficult to find. Am looking. Google has gobs of examples on starry vaults, but not much architectural info. dino (talk) 9:27 am, Today (UTC−8)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 20:41, 22 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 20:41, 22 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep: Significant architectural feature found in dozens, of not thousands of churches. Note that the article is about the feature, not the phrase. StAnselm (talk) 04:33, 26 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • @StAnselm: If this is a significant feature, can you help find a single source that defines it? The fact it exists in many churches is unfortunately OR until we find a source that confirms that. Until then, I am afraid we don't have a single source to say this is a term used by architects, since sources we have are very poor (mentions in passing on blogs, tourist websites, etc.). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:21, 27 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

OK, here's a source: "The usual mode of decorating the roofs and ceilings of churches was by an azure ground, studded with golden stars, which was common, from the earliest periods, as a natural and symbolical allusion to the heavens". The practice was adopted very early in England. It it is commonly found on wooden ceilings, but some traces have been found on stone-vaulted ceilings. StAnselm (talk) 10:39, 27 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@StAnselm: I have limited net connectivity, so I cannot access the links above. But yiur quotes do not show that they use the term ' starry vault'. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:48, 28 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I can confirm I searched the linked books directly for the phrase "starry vault" as well as the word "starry" just in case, and the phrase just isn't in there. The books definitely show that some vaults were decorated with stars, but not that the phrase "starry vault" was ever used to describe those vaults specifically. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 18:44, 28 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Right, because the article is about the thing (ceilings decorated with stars) rather than the phrase. StAnselm (talk) 20:02, 28 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly, but the problem is that if we can't show that the phrase "starry vault" has ever historically been used to describe the thing "a ceiling vault covered in starry decorations", then titling the article "starry vault" is original research in the sense that we cannot attribute the concept (or the "phrase") to a verifiable outside source. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 20:48, 28 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well, sure - but then we just move it to a descriptive title, e.g. Star-painted ceiling. StAnselm (talk) 01:55, 29 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep as architectural feature. might need renaming. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:05, 29 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep -- It is a poor article, but worth having (possibly renamed). Peterkingiron (talk) 18:06, 29 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.