The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Following improvement deletion votes have changed Spartaz Humbug! 16:40, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Criticism of Twelver Shi'ism

Criticism of Twelver Shi'ism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)
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Delete - "Criticism of Twelver Shi'ism" is a article without providing sources that help readers understand from who in particular is criticism recieved for Twelver Shi'i Islam, which is a strictly followed religion of about 200 million people in the world. I think the article may qualify under G-1 Wikipedia:Patent nonsense perhaps as the article is original research, POV, in bad faith and soapbox. References given are non-verifiable and out of sync to the matter which they are tagged to. Nothing in the article can be checked for verification, except few sources which are not related to "Criticism of Twelver Shi'ism". Those only help explain that Twelver Shi'i are up to 10-15% of total Islam and are the minority and few quotes from Khomeini and his criticism (You can't criticise whole community based on single person). When I read an article in which the faith of about 200 million people is criticised I expect the article to to guide me in understanding why this is and who in particular are criticising their faith. The article even contain quotes such as "Twelver Shia themselves undermine Ali’s authority", which is a strong indication that this article is made to bash Twelver Shi'i Islam.--Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haidertcs 10:27, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete - This article is badly sourced and references cited are through hate sites like www.islamicweb.com, www.ahlebayt.com, www.abdurahman.org. Criticism is not constructive rather its an attempt to humiliate an entire community with millions followers worldwide with the reference of propagandist websites. Wikipedia requires neutral, authentic, reliable and verifiable citations rather than propaganda contents. Humaliwalay (talk) 11:46, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • isn't it funny that the one who requested the speedy deletion promotes himself as a shia! that's the first thing to consider. i will be as short as possible.
    1. the one who first proposed deletion says he is shia on his userpage. conflict of interest.
    2. faizhaider propposed eletion not long after i last edited the page by deleting false shia propaganda that was added. faizhaider did not object previously to this false shia information that was added.
    3. faizhader proposed delation by informing 2 previous shia users humaliwalay and another shia user whose name i forgot. he also informed the creator atheistic irani even thouhg he has not been on for a very long rime. but he did not inform me even though i was the last to edit it before him....maybe trying to pull a back handed unfair attack.
    4. my section i wrote on fatimah recieving divine revealtions is fully sourced from respected sunni scholars who are criticising shia. these scholars criticise them in their books. what is wrong with a sunni scholar. it does not need to be only secular scholar.
    5. when i link to so called hate wbsites i only do this to highlight the views because sadly the books i used are in arabic only and not translated yet. so i do this to express better this view until the books i used are translated.
    6. just because shia are millions of people doen't mean they cannot be criticed. there articles criticising catholics, islam and more who are millions or much bigger than twelver shia. so this argument is stupid.
    7. the artcile is very fair and shia can defend themselves in it. amybe they really cannot defend themsleves so they have to resort to trying to delete it so to protoect their dignity. remeber a stwlever shia proposed deletion. very suspicious.
    8. khomeini is grand ayatollah meaning he is highest of twelevr scholars and he said the hadeeth of fatimah getting revelation is authentic. does faizhaider think khomeini is wrong in this case...if he does please provide your evidence why he is wrong and you are right!!!!
    9. all the stuff i wrote is releveant and faizhaider is lying when he says it is not related or is not clear. he is lying for sectarian reason. provide proof faizhaider!!!!! he is trying to abuse the system wikipedia has in place to provide good content and lie to use that system against a good article.
    10. atheistic irani first section is the same.
  • i also hope to make the artcile bigger in the future by adding more relevant criticisms.Suenahrme (talk) 12:13, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • yes the other shia user is moheahlolbayt. he is shia s he defended the shia against criticism and his name strongly suggest he is shia. okay i am leaving now. so do not listen to faizhaider and speddly delete the artcile. leave it for more discussion soto prove that faizhaider is wrong and worried only for his sectarian peace of mind and not wikipedia good articles or otherwise.Suenahrme (talk) 12:20, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments: If a sunni user (i.e. AllahLovesYou can request csd for a sunni article i.e. Criticism of Sunni Islam, why is it funny that I a shia muslim has request csd for this article.
    1. So what I'm Shia muslim I don't hide this and my edit/talk history will show that I have never been dismissive/accusative/bad-mouthed to any one, I don't go on accusing people due to their believes, nationality, sex, etc.
    2. My objection is to article as whole, both parties are putting irrelevant, POV and orignal research data which is based on primary sources (or no relevance, connection to what is being said in article and what is being said in source).
    3. I didn't proposed deletion in some secret corner of wikipedia, I placed notice on article, created nomination page, added a sub-section on talk page, notified creator of article and put notice on talk page of recent editors; this lot more than what is required for csd, may be I missed an editor or two but there is big notice on article which calls for attention for all.
    4. Your section about Fatimah sa, contains in total 12 sources but only three of them are verifiable of the two are primary sources and materila in this article is copyvio from those primary source, third source specifiaclly cricizes Khomeini and not Shia Islam you can't ransom 200 million people for one guy.
    5. the sites which you are referring to are through hate and un reliable as per wiki policy, e.g.Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_35#Islamic_web
    6. that is the point, everybody could be critcised but ut should be criticism and not bashing. The article has been in place for more than six months (since 2010-05-11) and has been turf for editwar and in these six months forget any improvemnt, article has become more garbage than before.
    7. defend???? is this a blog? it seems really suspicious that a sunni is trying to block the deletion of the article who has been primary contributor to all of the matter which is copyvio & orignal research.
    8. Khomeini is just one of the maraji and not highest of them i.e. Maraja-e-kul, basically he was a major philospher (of political theory) and not major historian, jurist or jurisprudent. Apart from that different maraji have different opinion about different things.
    9. I also can use same words for you but throwing words of allegation is not my trait. Words used by you show your state of mind and your level.
    10. whats that about?
  • I want to point out that this article defies several wikipedia policies, few of them are:
  • At last I want to say that I announce my clear identity on wikipedia because I am what I am, I don't need a comouflage, anonimity or pseudo identity to hide myslef for my acts and I am not afraid of personal attacks even if they hurt me (yes, I get lots of mail from so called sunni elitists which like their ancestors & leaders are bad-mouthed, why because as there is an urdu saying that truth is sour; they simply can't take logical & factual criticism & they resort to abusive language & allegations.)

    --Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haidertcs 15:55, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • To whoever is judging the delete issue please read the points I wote in defense of not deleting it before above and you wil see that faizhaider didm’t answer them but tried to divert attention using false arguments. I will again quickly respond to faizhaider’s false points 1 by 1. To the judges when faizhaidetr compared a sunni wanting to delete criticism of sunni islam to this all I can say is please have a look at that article compared to this shia one. The sunni one was saying very stupid false thing like it is ok to write quran with urine!!!!!!!!!!! And otjher very stupid sectarian things. So faizhaider this a stupid comparison.
      1. i will anser his point 1. You say you have good history. You also have more edits than me and nice user page. So what!!!!!!! That does not mean you are wanting deletion of this article in good faith. You are not an angel and will be judged every time on your proof and intention.
      2. I will answer point 2. The only people putting POV and original research are shia in the article. This is easy for everyone to see in the history. The criticisms are referenced very clear except in your eyes faizhaider.
      3. you missed probably the most important editor…..which is me when you put up for deletion and I was last editor before you….why????? and why you put it up for speedy deletion??????? maybe you thought you can speedily delete it before I even knew so to stop me defend leaving the article!!!!!
      4. i used 3 very good sources for a very specific criticism of Fatimah receiving divine revelation. Do you want more than that??!!! How many people you want to criticize such specific thing??????!!!! 100 people!!!!!!! I used 2 primary sources of al-kafi and khomeinis words yes and I gave them good links. I use the first alkafi because this is what the sunni scholars criticize in the books I referenced to. I used the second of khomini because he is telling everbody that the alkafi source that sunni scholars criticize is really authentic. If I did not use alkafi with Khomeini then twelve shia will defend themselves bny saying the alkafi source is not authentic. But Khomeini prove them wrong. And do not lie…nowhere do I criticize Khomeini…prove it!!!! I only mention quoting what he say. You say not to ransom shia for 1 guy. I say I will not do this if you faizhaider can prove you are right and grand ayatollah Khomeini is wrong. If Khomeini is proven and shown wrong I will remove. But for now I think Khomeini is more knowledgeable in shia hadeeth than you and I think you will have trouble finding even 1 ayatollah who agree w=ith you.
      5. if you listen faizhaider I already said the so called hate sites I did not use as my sources for criticisms. I only use them because the sunni scholars books are not translated so I can’t refer people to them so I use these to eelaborate. Please resad my earlier defense for this. They can be removed easily if the judges agree this is best.
      6. do not lie and exaggerate. This article not bashing. It is very fair for all because everone has a say and the criticism is very formal and referenced. This article is not turf for edit war. Do not lie. Anyone can see you are lying by looking at the history and it is interesting and no surprise that the only ones adding stupid garbage POV again and again are shias not criticisers and the article will only get bigger and better with time and I will build and improve it also.
      7. it seems really suspicious that shia proposed speedy deletion!!!!! No????? do not make this out like I am doing this lik on internet forum like I am a bad guy. As I say the evidence speaks for itself and it will show that you are not sincere in your delete request. I alrwady said there is no original research or copyvio and this is clear for all. And why do you pick only on my section faizhaider???????? What about atheistic irani??????? Or is it because I used sunni scholars and books and he did not or because he has not been back for along time so he is not the threat to your plan for deletion???????
      8. like I said about Khomeini…you must prove he is wrong and you are right. And do not lie about him to protect your argument. He is not just major philosopher of politics theory. He is also major historian, jurist and jurispudent as his books prove. Faizhaider I did not know you can become a grand ayatollah without being a major jurist!!!!!!!!! Don’t grand ayatollahs have to give religious verdicts???????? Don’t they have followers who seek their religious guidance??????? Was Khomeini only giving philosophical rulings??????!!!!! This is absurd and blatant lie by you faizhaider which only make you look more untrustworthy.
      9. I am not using bad words except to say you are lying and this is showing the more you pursue your agenda of deletion for false reasons. And I am in good state of mind so do n’t worry about me faizhaider but I worry for your intention.
      10. you pick on me but not atheistic irani. But I already explain this before.
    • All the things you say the article defies are false. But I like how long you made the list!!!!! Did you add every imaginable violation you could find scouring Wikipedia.!!!!!!!!!!! Very funny yes but I show thses already to be false.

      Am I hiding!!!!!!!!!!! I did not realize this. I like how you refer to sunni as if they with their ancestors are always elititist…very common shia propaganda which I can only laugh at. “they simply can't take logical & factual criticism & they resort to abusive language & allegations”…this to me mirrors a case at preseent. And no faizhaider the truth is not sour….the truth is actually very sweet and you should try tasting….it is only sour if it leaves a bad taste in your mouth and you find it hard to swallow. Maybe a bit like your current predicament. So to the judges I hoope this explains the case for keeping the article and shows the insincerity of faizhaider. If you need more input from me let me know and I will respond.Suenahrme (talk) 01:21, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

      • Well again you are dammed by your own claim and its hilarious too that I and User FAIZHAIDER are allied. Please visit this Talk:Hallaur#Article_issues page and read the differences of opinions between us you will change your mind. We are all concerned about GOOD FAITH EDITING without any prejudice or malice against anyone. Thanks, I am with you if you are right. - Humaliwalay (talk) 09:05, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Comment: What is being said on this page & what has been there on the article in question will be judged by Admins, best in intrest of article in specific & encyclopedia in general. But imo Suenahrme statements above are violation of comments on people rather than the article is considered disruptive and I take them as personal attack.

          Is it not amazing he thinks himself most important editor of the article it seems he has ownership dilema.

          I don't know what Suenahrme knows about Shi'i hawza system but its like genral education system where everybody has to be read everything and master its basics but that does not mean each individual is master of everything different Maraji were expert of different fields e.g. Khoei was a jurist & jurisprudent while Baqir al-Sadr was master of political philosphy. If you read Khomeini's article it clearly mentions, "but is most famous for his political role. In his writings and preachings he expanded the Shi'a Usuli theory of velayat-e faqih,... .... ...He taught political philosophy,[24] Islamic history and ethics... ... ...His seminary teaching often focused on the importance of religion to practical social and political issues of the day... ... ...Khomeini studied Greek Philosophy and was influenced by both the philosophy ... ... ...Apart from philosophy, Khomeini was also interested in literature and poetry". Also different maraji have different opinion on subject e.g. I quote from Sistani's article "Like his predecessor Khoei, Sistani does not share the definition of the doctrine of Velayat-e faqih (the authority of jurists) supported by Ayatollah Khomeini and Iran's current supreme leader Ayatollah Khamenei." Being grad ayatollah does'nt mean being maraji-e-taqlid e.g. there are scores of Grand Ayatollahs at present but Sistani is Marja-e-taqleed for most of Shi'is like Koei was in his time despite Khomeini als being alive at same time (because Khoei was major jurist & juriprudent then Khomeini who was major philospher).

          Its true you used 3 sources and atleast two in which you referred regarding revelations are actually good but the problem is they are primary sources (and they don't have word of critics in them for Shi'is) then you put a third reference which is about criticsm of Khomeini (& not Shi'i muslims) and lo! you add them to have your own inference and that is called original research.

          Per se, Project:No original research, " drawing inferences from multiple sources to advance a novel position—called original synthesis, or original SYN—is prohibited by the NOR policy." & "Articles should be based largely on reliable secondary sources."

          Per se, Project:Burden of proof, "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material." So it is you who have to prove because you have added the material and no body else is compelled to do so (yes, anybody can do it but burden lies on you).

          As iyo, you are the most important editor of the article so Burden of proof lies on you.

          Anyways, now the article is under burden of Project:copyvio, so I think things will have to be sorted out in faster pace.

          --Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haidertcs 10:11, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

          • unbelievable!!!!!!! i feel like i am dealing with brick walls. did you and humaliwalay even read what i said??????!!!!! i said theres no copyvio anywhere and this is shown in article. the charges against this article just keep piling on by you2 just to help further your sectarian causse of deletion of article. and article is not POV or primary as i alreaaaaadyyyyy explained. stop piling on false charges to help your false cause. i did not make up what i wrote. i use the sunni scholars books and transfer accordingly translations of what they say about fatimah recieveing revelation as shia believe. this not my own words but words of highly prominent scholars who are ctricising and who happen to be sunni. then what about atheistic irani and his secular scholar sources????????!!!! why not complain against his section???????????!!!!!!!! and to humaliwalay stop trying to bring up false excuses. you say you and faizhaider disagree sometime....well i saw where you disagree and its about a indian town called hallaur. yes you may disagree about a less emotional issue like an indian town but you unite when its about defending the same religions sect because this is emotional topic and you and faizhaider are treating this with pure emotional side and it has nothing to do with upholding the wiki policy but you clothe a wolf in sheeps clothes!!!!!! to conclude i ask the judges to compare my above reasons with humaliwalay and faizhaiders reasons and hopefully they will see the truth. and also a note....this whole fiasco started with faizhaider only after i removed a shia editors adding his own unreferenced POV in the article while trying to defend his twelevr dhia at 8.40 29th november 2010. so i believe and i think the evidence will show faizhaider only started this due to his frustration and seeing that the twelevrs shia weere not able to defend themselves properly against the articles arguments.Suenahrme (talk) 11:10, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If only you knew my frustration korruski but yes I will from now on only strictly criticize the contributions and not contributors. I will leavfe the judges tyo criticize the contributors. Thanks.Suenahrme (talk) 03:02, 1 December 2010 (UTC) oh and i just visited khomeinis wiki article and as you said faizhaider he was indeed interested in philosophy, poetry and literature. but it also clearly say he was intrersted in hadeeth as well and he wrote a book it says about forty hadeeth. just to note.Suenahrme (talk) 03:10, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - I urge contributors to this discussion to remember that this nomination is not intended to be an argument, nor a vote, but a discussion to establish whether or not this article is suitable for inclusion. I understand that judging by your "tone" there are almost certainly personal (cultural and/or religious) motivations for your arguments. Try to be as objective as possible and coming across as being upset (by the use of multiple exclamation marks and overly long, repetitive statements directed at individual editors) only detracts from the weight of your opinion. If you are unable to keep your own cultural/religious affiliations separate you would be wise to distance yourself from this discussion as you would have an insurmountable conflict of interest. In short, if you cannot set aside your own beliefs or affinities leave this discussion to those with no involvement in the subject matter who can objectively evaluate the article's suitability. --§Pumpmeup 10:21, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In addition do not, ever, mention another editor's cultural or religious background in order to discredit them, this is a severe personal attack. There are several blatant personal attacks present in this discussion and I would imagine this will cause the reviewing sysop to entirely discredit the attacker's arguments. --§Pumpmeup 10:27, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, but major improvement needed. As a disinterested party, I don't find the article to fall under the "hate" umbrella, particularly as the primary editor has a done a relatively great job of phrasing the issue from an objective perspective: "XYZ commentator critices that yadda-yadda [footnote]" as opposed to "the following things are terrible about Foo". Is still lacks a solid lede, and the sourcing needs some tweaking (though not as much as implied by above opponents). I do join in cautioning the primary editor that links to hate sights aren't inappropriate because they're hate sites, but solely because drawing conclusions from primary sources falls under WP:OR (original research). It is, however, totally legitimate to cite academic sources which observe, rather than participate in, criticism of one sect or another. Plus we have plenty of articles or sections on "Criticism of X belief", so I don't see any particular reason the Shi'a should be exempted provided it can be done encyclopedically. Note also that a CV tag appears to have been maliciously added to block the text. The tag provided no URL for the alleged vio, it was not added to the CV notification page, and not even an Edit Summary was given to explain it. So I've deleted it (which would normally be an Admin issue only) do to lack of any attempt to comply with CV procedure. MatthewVanitas (talk) 19:26, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I kindly ask you to have a fast look to what I wrote below about the references of this article. The whole article is just based on self-interpretation and cheating by distorting the content of sources. Thanks in advance. --Aliwiki (talk) 12:51, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment on possible improvement. I submit that the basic concept of the article is valid, though the above concerns do need to be addressed. The "child imam" criticism from the Archive link seems useable provided the counter-criticism is also recognised. So far as other legitimate additions, note here[1] one example, likely of many, of an academic source mentioning Sunni allegations of "disrespect of the Sahaba" due to Shi'a antipathy to the earliest Caliphs. With another source or two this could easily be used as to form a totally valid NPOV observation of the history of Sunni criticism on that issue. The article definitely needs some chopping, and we need to distinguish malicious CV from over-long cites, and definitely need to watch the OR issue, but I think a couple editors could knock in some pretty valid academic commentary in a day or two. I'm just concerned that the AfD might have too much emotional basis mixed up with the legitimate objections. MatthewVanitas (talk) 21:30, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Day or two? I have been watching that article for around six months and things never improved so I thought putting Afd request might do some magic but no original editor wants to admit that there is something wrong with the article. They will simply not allow the article to be cleansed. I hope some overnight magic happens. Meanwhile can you clear of the contested matter, it seems the editors on article will accept edits of a mediator.--Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haidertcs 21:51, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it's good this was brought to the public attention then; I just ran across it on WP:ISLAM by happenstance. I'm a little jammed later today, but I'll try to put at least an hour into it tonight, primarily to cut out some OR, and put in a really basic section on criticism of "Sahaba disrespect" (which, incidentally, is one common criticism I've seen from Sunni radical groups). Again, disinterested party and hope that the original editor will recognise this and be willing to take some neutral input. MatthewVanitas (talk) 21:57, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, cut out a possible CV (more like an excessively-long quote). Removed some of what appeared to be OR/presumption/ijtihad without secondary source backing. Also combined the footnotes so it's easier to see which sources are used repeatedly, and identified one article as being a personal homepage, though it might be the case that the author is still a recognised commentator. Also moved the shielded list of possible future sections to the top so folks can check for legitimate secondary sources covering those topics. I'm quite sure we can find something on Sunni criticism of temporary marriage. EDIT: I also submit we may be able to move the article to Criticism of Shi'a Islam, for the simplest title possible, unless the criticised beliefs (or many of them) are non-applicable to other Shi'a denominations like the Ismailis, etc. I take it they also believe in the young imams, Fatima's revelation, do not support the first caliphs, etc? MatthewVanitas (talk) 22:25, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I hope so things will change for good. BTW there is entire article Shia view of the Sahaba.--Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haidertcs 22:47, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1.Most of the sources are Wahabism and Bahai' Faith sources which their animosity to Shi'ism is obvious. 2.That a child was Imam is true, but who has criticized this fact?If you again pay attention to the sources, the accusation is one behalf of Wahabis sources. W.Madelung is just reporting this, and as far as I know he hasn't criticized it. It's notable that there were thousands of other child who became kings. Or there were several Sunni child Caliphate in dynasties. Moreover, Jesus was considered a religious figure since he was born, but in Criticism of Jesus and Criticism of christianity we don't see that this fact be criticized. Fatima's devine relation is also easily comparable to Mary (mother of Jesus)'s divine relation. Taqiyya and Ashura are part of religious traditions, and in none of the other religion criticism articles, traditions are not criticized.--Aliwiki (talk) 11:15, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: A fast analysis of the references of this article reveals many facts:

Ref 1. It is a Shia book which explains What is Taqiyya, there is no critism!!!!!!

Ref 2. A Sunni source which I explained above. If you open the link, you'll recognize the author used the impolite word of Rafidi which is a common word that Wahabis are using against Shia.

Ref3.Again a Sunni source, and if you read, it is talking about that Shias are not agreeing on Sunni's ideas, which is a fact. Is this criticism???In non of the religious criticism articles, the poit that one religion doesn't accept the other ideology is not criticized.

Ref. 4:Bernard Lewis is reporting Rukn al-Din Khurshah was chosen as Imam while he was a child!!! Ruk al-Din Khurshah was not a Twelver-Shia Imam (See The Twelve Imams to verify)

Ref. 5: An unrelibale Bahai' website whose animosity is obvious with Shia.

Ref. 6:Just a paper from a Sunni author.

Ref. 7: Madelung is relibale, but there is distortion here: Madelung is discussing Ismaili Shia not Twelver. In page 114-115 he has just reported who is the 12th Imam and his specification including that fact that he was a child (He is not even talking about the other child Imam, 9th). You can easily verify this obvious cheating here. Just a report, but self-interpretation has changed it to criticism.

Ref8.A RS but has the problem of Ref.7. Just need to content of chapter 4: [2]. The author is only reporting what are ideas of Twelver-Shia.

Ref 9.It's not verifiable.I didn't find any book with that tile in Google books. Also Google search reflect Wikipedia's article and Just I found that this book exists, but what is the content? and if it's criticizing or just reporting? It's notable that the author is a Shia.

Ref. 10:Just reporting the Imam was child, no criticism and obvious self-interpretation.

Ref. 11: the source is website that is just reporting Fatimah's divine relationship. No criticism and self-interpretation again! It's notable that Sunni's also believe Umar had devine relationship.

Ref. 12: It reports that Sunni's don't believe Fatima's devive relationship. Is this Criticims?!!

Ref 13: OR as it's primary source. It is also a Sunni source. further more, it's just reporting, on behalf of Sunnis, what Sunnis think and beliieve. No relationship for this article

Ref. 14:Obvious OR of a primary Sunni source

Ref. 15:OR from a primry Sunni source.

Ref. 16: Sunni's Fatwas against Shia beliefs. OR, unrelib ale sorce.

Ref. 17: Just reporting belief of existence of the Fatima's book from a Shia website. No criticism.

I think these explanation are enough to prove the whole content is just based on self-interpretations.--Aliwiki (talk) 12:38, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I agree with Aliwiki, the way he has explained its apparent that this article is a mere anti-shia proaganda by the Sunnis and Wahabis rather than being an encyclopedic material.- Humaliwalay (talk) 12:29, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]


I can only answer for Refs 1-3 and 12, which are the ones I added. And note too that I removed several portions which were non-encyclopedic, so I'd argue the article continues to improve. Further, the basic concept of the article is a valid one, so I wouldn't necessarily be against removing the last two sections until they can be improved, given the sensitivity of the issue.
I would argue that Aliwiki's list of comments above present some "moving goalposts", in that he appears to be against quoting Shi'a books or Sunni books, and against scholarly commentary or quotes from sectarian commentary. So if a book mentions criticism, it's not in-and-of-itself criticism. And if it criticises, it's sectarian? In response to cites 1-3 which I added:
Ref 1. It is a Shia book which explains What is Taqiyya, there is no critism!!!!!!
Click the link, third paragraph down starts "Some have criticised Shiism by saying that to employ the practice of taqiyya..."
Ref 2. A Sunni source which I explained above. If you open the link, you'll recognize the author used the impolite word of Rafidi which is a common word that Wahabis are using against Shia.
"If you open the link"? The quoted text itself uses the term, so any implication that the biased nature of the quote is concealed is incorrect. The point is that it's quoting an example of Sunni objections to Shi'a belief. Since the sentence is about noting bias, the use of the quote is NPOV since it's in context.
Ref3.Again a Sunni source, and if you read, it is talking about that Shias are not agreeing on Sunni's ideas, which is a fact. Is this criticism???In non of the religious criticism articles, the poit that one religion doesn't accept the other ideology is not criticized.
Ref 7, thanks for the link, will add to the article. Note however that despite the word "Ismailism" in the title, in the specific cited section the author is discussing Shi'a Islam overall (Imamiyya).
The word "criticism" is explicitly used, and further I don't think it's even slightly stretching to consider "rejected the idea...", "opposed unity until XYZ belief was dropped.." as criticism of those beliefs.
Ref. 12: It reports that Sunni's don't believe Fatima's devive relationship. Is this Criticims?!!
Definitely. If group A disbelieves a major precept of group B's religion, I don't see how that could fail to be seen as criticism.
Glancing at your other points, I've not too convinced that the others are correct either. You portyray #17 as Ref. 17: Just reporting belief of existence of the Fatima's book from a Shia website. No criticism..
  1. 17 ref is most clearly not a Shi'a website, and is quite clearly a criticism of Shi'a belief in revelations post-dating Muhammad. If you mis-portray such an obvious source here, how are we to believe your opinions on any of the above? Did you not actually look at the link, or are you intentionally misrepresenting it? I do, however, note that it's a non-authoritative sectarian site (non-authoritative in that it's not like it's Al-Azhar or Darul Uloom Deboand issuing an official criticism), so I'm fine removing that one.
Again, we have a page-full of "support" for deletion which is mostly two posters, and then one who arrived today. I appreciate the listing out of specific objections, but as noted I don't think the objections to 1-3 are valid. So far as the two following sections, I can't speak to them as immediately, but a spot-check shows flaws already. The latter two sections need substantial work, but the two earlier sections I added I think are pretty decent. More importantly, I'd say the overall concept is quite valid and educational in helping readers understand the differences between different segments of Islam. Following WP:BEBOLD I'm going to go chop out the non-authoritative references, to include, unfortunately, several books that might be correct but which we can't easily access online. MatthewVanitas (talk) 19:17, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I've made some pretty sweeping cuts to the article, including removing several non-authoritative authors, and several inaccessible books, as well as some long stretches of text that verged on POV, or were simply too exhaustive. Again, adding to my concerns over bias being a motive in this AfD, I note that many of the criticised sections may have indeed had poor footnoting, but also were pretty inarguably true. When someone wants to remove a pretty basic fact for "poor referencing" rather than find a better ref, I do tend to suspect they want the fact removed more than they want it to be proven. Major Sunni commentators and institutions undeniably criticise temporary marriage, the Imamate, "disrespect" to the Sahaba, etc. Attacking those very basic points over footnoting, rather than working to improve footnoting, is rather suspect. MatthewVanitas (talk) 19:40, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Mr MatthewVanitas, thank you very much for your comments. There are some points that I need to discuss in more details: Twice, in your last post and in the first one after my post, you have mention the matter of Majority/Minority of Shia/Sunni. The question is that Majority is a base for reality?Can majority beliefs affect reality? By a simple comparison, Christians are majority ovr Muslims, so can you conclude Christianity is right and Islam is wrong? Or, compare the idea of around just 10 millions Armenian about Armenian Genocide in which the other parts are Turks and Arab-Sunnis with about 300 millions population. Can you conclude the majority idea can affect this undeniable fact that has occured? We must consider the density of groups to be able to compare them. 8 centuries prior to the Fatwa of the Shaykh al-Baz, the grand saudi Muftih that the earth is flat, the shia scholar, Biruni estimated the circumference of the earth.If you want, it will be my pleasure to discuss this matter in more details. You mention the case of Shia negative view on some of Muhammad's companions. I wonder how much you know about these companions? They were among greatest criminals of the Human's history; Umar ordered the two greatest libraries of the ancient word, library of Alexandria and Ctesiphon be burnt. AbuBakr gave the title Sword of Allah to Khalid ibn Walid upon his shameful raping to Malik Ibn Nuwayrah's wife. Uthman subjected the whole Islamic nations to his family and established nepotism. Now talking about the one who has negative view of these great historical criminals must be criticized? Can you be kind to show me some example about criticism of some people who has/had negative view on Hitler, Gengiz Khan, or...... Maybe you don't know who was Judas Iscariot, or maybe you haven't read about that when Moses left his companions for 40 days, they started worshiping a golden goat. Any way, there are much to be said in this case, but logically this matter can not provide any base for Shia criticism. About the ref 17, it's my duty to apologize for my carelessness. About Ref 1, you have just read the first sentence of that paragraph, but seems you haven't read the rest which is its clarifications. If you say some I reserve the right for the author to ask who is this some. To discuss more about this Ref, the author is a Shia and he is defending Shia's idea in his book, I can not understand how his words can be interpreted as criticism. the whole Taqiya section is based on this source. About Ref 2, i explaned a bit above, and I would like to add according to WP:NPOV this source can not be used because the source is a Sunni source. Everything Sunni or Shia say about the other one, can be called only and only accusation not criticism. Criticism must be on behalf of a third neutral party. Ref. 3 has same situation. Ref 7, Madelung is discussing the 12th Imam and his characterizations, and says twelver shias are believing to him!Where is criticism??About Ref 12,I guess my explanations above should be enough. Thank you again.--Aliwiki (talk) 23:30, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Couple points here:
1) Yes, Tabatabi is writing from the Shi'a perspective. However, he is noting things the Shi'a have been criticised for and is responding to them.
2) Yes, Ref 2 is a Sunni source, but the whole point is that it's being explicitly, directly quoted as an example of the kind of argument Sunnis use against Shi'a, not as a neutral authority on the subject, but as a case-study.
3) Same thing with Madelung as Tabatabi: he's pointing out an argument used against the Shi'a and then explaining how the Shi'a respond to it.
4) As for the first bit, I have zero idea what argument you're making. Where have I ever said that the Sunni are right based on numbers? Are you mistaking the word "major" (as in a recognised authority understood to speak for at least a portion of the Sunni community) with "majority"?
5) On the bit about the Sahaba, it's not in the slightest a legitimate argument, and frankly is the sort of POV attack on the article that drew me into this debate in the 1st place. Your response to the simple statement "Sunnis believe Shi'a disrespect the Sahaba" is to give some lengthy argument that "persons XYZ should be rightly criticised, and nobody can criticise the Shi'a for criticising them?" It's as though you are, yourself, literally just reiterating the Shi'a argument rather than arguing the validity of the statement. Again, several critics of this article appear to recognise that the Sunni criticise the Shi'a, but are simply against any mention thereof; replying with arguments that "the Shi'a are right, Abu Bakr was evil and shouldn't have been caliph" is completely outside the scope of this argument, and again shows a lack of neutrality on this issue. MatthewVanitas (talk) 02:16, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again, about your points:
1) For sure you are familiar with the following structure in Wikipedia: Somewho? claimed that ..... This section has one source and that source is defending Shia idea, the author is a Shia and he has discussed the answer to any possible criticism.
2)Argument of Shia/Sunni is not related to criticism of one of them. Criticism must be on behalf of a third neutral person, and the involved parties can not criticize eachother. As I told before, any party claim against the other one is ACCUSATION not CRITICISM. To verify this fact, you can have a look to other religious criticism like Criticism of Christianity. It can be a good idea to start two articles with titles Sunni views of Shia and Shia views of Sunni.
3)About Madelung, as it's a RS I need to clarify it better. in page 114, Madelung is reporting Twelver Shia beliefs, such as temporary marraige and other beliefs including the Shia 12th Imam (Who became Imam when he was a child), then he is explaining Shia's doctorine in this matter very well and clear and says:Shi'a belief the knowledge of an imam comes from "inspiration, not acquisition", and thus that even a young imam is not considered unprepared, receiving revelation upon the death of his predecessor.. In fact, Madelung's explanation is a clear answer to any criticism. Here I would like to explain about the other RS of this section, which is from the famous orientalist, Bernard Lewis. Mr Lewis in that book has provided a detailed study of Assassins which was a Nizari Ismaili movement and its founder was Hassan-i Sabbah. It's notable that Hassan Sabbah was inventor of Suicide attack and now if you pay attention to the title of the book Assassins: A Radical Sect in Islam , you can easily realize what's that. I don't know how much you are familiar with the Islamic topic, but it would be worthy to mention that the word Imam has two meanings here: Imam, a general word which means leader;Second is confined to 12 persons see this. Now, Mr. Lewis is describing the Assassins movement, and that they chose a child Rukn al-Din Khurshah as their leader with the title Imam which here is in its general meaning. (Just search the word Rukn al-Din Khurshah inside the book to verify this fact). Now if you have extra time, you can reat the following to understand how a 9-years-old child Imam overcame a debate in the presence of several educated persons [3]
4)The word Majority which you used twice made me to understood that. My mother tongue is not English, so if you say you didn't mean that, again it's my duty to ask you to accept my sincere apology.
5)I know that It's not directly related to here, but that you mentioned the negative view of Shia on Muhammad's companion, made me to clarify this point. I gave example of Judas Iscariot who was an apostle of Jesus, I am proud to say I have negative view on him and I believe if the whole over 6 billion todays human tell me that they love him, won't affect my negative view on him. The case of Muhammad's companions are exactly same. Can we criticize someone who has negative view on Hitler? The answer is No. We can never accept the title Sword of God to a woman raper. If any group including Sunni wants to criticize Shia's negative view on some of Muhammad's companions, first they must prove their loyalty towards Muhammad and Islam, which they failed to do after 1400 years. Now they want to solve this problem by their higher number, but their lower density (which I mentioned above) has limited them.
I guess till now, our debate has covered all the points of article content except the Fatima's book. For more clarification, I will add the following point as-well:
6)Fatimah divine relation: This section has 2 sources. first one (Ref 9) is just an informative source, which informs the shia belief of existence of Fatima's book and her divine relation. The second source (ref 10) exact wording is this:The Shi'ahs believe that at this time God made special revelations to Fatimah, the Prophet's daughter, ...It need scarcely be added that the Sunni writers deny every word of these traditions.. Obviously there is no criticism here, just informative sentences. That's all. Further more, that Sunni's believe non-Prophets do not have divine relation is an obvious lie, because Quran chapter 19 verses 16 to 21 and Quran 3.45 are clearly mention Mary's divine relation, In addition, Sunni's reports shows ordinary people also can have divine relation and here I just give two examples of their most authentic book:[4],[5][6]. Now, when such people can have divine relation, but Fatima can't?Sunnis must criticize Quran and their books prior to criticizing Shia.
Now, is there any unclear point? or is there any point which needs more explanation or clarification?--Aliwiki (talk) 04:16, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I do agree with Aliwiki. - Humaliwalay (talk) 08:49, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete An article can be written, but without the purely negative tone of the present one, which is pervasive it would be better to start over. criticism of articles are always a problem. In this case, the dispute between the two sects is notable enough to support an article like this--and I suppose the opposite also, but it should discuss not just the negative criticism made, but the positive response to it. It is not anyone's concern here which side has the better of the argument; the purpose of an article like this is to inform someone who comes here knowing very little of this what the argument is about, using sources from both sects, and also from outsiders. DGG ( talk ) 02:13, 7 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: I disagree that it's a "tone" issue. The subject is negative, in that it is criticism, but I think the article makes it quite clear that it's about criticism of Shiism, not the article criticising Shiism. I agree that more classic/standard rebuttals from Shi'a commentators would be good, though unfortunately some of the responses were removed (along with the criticisms themselves) due to sourcing issues. Note that in the newly added material, such as the taqqiya section, I added a common rebuttal from the Shi'a perspective, and the child imams section mentions the rebuttal that there is instantaneous transfer of knowledge upon assuming the imamate. I would also like to point out that these debates have cropped up earlier in articles such as Criticism of Islam, and that there are several similar articles such as Criticism of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I appreciate your NPOV comments, DGG, as overall I'm very concerned about POV pushers deleting religious criticism, and this debate had been a bit emotional earlier on. That's been a major problem on articles of various Sunni sects and figures, where properly-footnoted and neutrally toned paragraphs of "Mullah X of ABC Institution took issue with Mullah Y's assertion, citing that yadda-yadda-yadda, and ultimately issuing a fatwa declaring Mullah Y's views invalid." Then IPs come in and nip it out, or editors remove it and then argue forcefully that criticism in a bio is "disrespectful" and Mullah X is an amazing figure beyond criticism. I still submit the basic topic of this article is valid, and I'd welcome any concerns on tone issues in the current article, though again it being a criticism article an NPOV depiction of negativity seems the order of the day. MatthewVanitas (talk) 15:27, 7 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: I agree with Mathew in the point that the tone of the article doesn't have severe problem. in addition, we must take into account that the article is about criticism of a system not individuals, and the article aimed to criticize a system called Shia not individual mullahs; for example criticism of G.W.Bush is different from criticism of US's foreign policy, while they are related together. As I have pointed out before, the main problem of the current article is that absolutely non of the provided sources supports the given idea in its related text, and I discussed this matter in details in my previous comments.--Aliwiki (talk) 16:34, 7 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again, I dispute the claim that footnotes and text don't match up. They match up quite closely, so I'm baffled by the allegation.
  1. 1: Article "The Shi'a have been criticised for this practice [taqiyya], deemed cowardly"
Source: Some have criticized Shiism by saying that to employ the practice of taqiyah in religion is opposed to the virtues of courage and bravery
  1. 2: Article text is a footnoted direct quote from a published Sunni book of answers to religious questions, from a question regarding the Shi'a.
  1. 3a,b: Article describes ecumenical movement which stalled out due to Sunnis being displeased with Shi'a "disrespect" of the Sahaba.
Source: All of these writers followed the same line, rejecting a dialogue with the Shi'a clerics until those ulama began to purify their education and writings from all profanity accorded to Sahabah.. Likewise source specifically states following footnote, that self-flagellation during Ashura was banned by Khameini.
  1. 5: On this iteration I can't get a preview of the page quoted, but Madelung specifically says that child imams were not considered problematic because their knowledge, as I directly quote, was derived from "inspiration, not acquisition".
  1. 10: Article: "Sunni critics argue that Fatimah never received divine revelations"
Source: It need scarcely be added that the Sunni writers deny every word of these traditions [revelations to Fatimah]
Okay, so how can you claim that the footnotes and the article text don't match up? This isn't some matter of pasting some arbitrary footnote on to a sentence to make it look legitimate. The page numbers are hyperlinked, and the texts I've included specifically support those arguments; or better yet, I read the texts and then encyclopedically summarised the arguments while footnoting. So wherein lies the referencing problem? MatthewVanitas (talk) 17:50, 7 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • It seems you haven't reviewed my comment on 04:16, 6 December 2010. Also in my previous comment I said the sources don't support the given idea.
About Taqya:It's enough to write: Some[who?] have criticized Schiism...... In addition I noted the author is a Shia who is explaining Taqya in that paragraph. Fortunately the preview is available.
About Sunni sources, I told you many times, whatever they say is accusation not criticism. Just check some other criticism articles. Can Muslims criticize Christianity? Criticism must be on behalf of a Academic research, not uneducated Sunni Mullahs. Yes, Shia believes in Fatima's divine relation and has negative view on some of Muhammad's companions. What's the problems? which academic source has criticized this matter?
About Madelung. Follow this structure to verify what he is saying: first see the content, pages 111-115 is about Imamya (=Twelver) Shia, and he is just reporting Twelvers beliefs, such as temporary marriage is permissible untill day of resurrection and many things else. Among this report he is mentioning Mahdi, the 12th Imam, who became Imam when he was a child and he is continuing that Shi'a belief the knowledge of an imam comes from "inspiration, not acquisition", and thus that even a young imam is not considered unprepared, receiving revelation upon the death of his predecessor.. Just you need to search the some words like temporary marriage, Mahdi, inspiration, acquisition and .... to verify this fact. Changing this report to criticism is just self-interpretation. Isn't this? I gave some examples before which you didn't pay attention; Jesus had divine relation as soon as he was born, but we don't see criticism of this matter in criticism of Christianity. For sure studies about Christianity is tens of times more than Twelver Shia. Or consider the case of people like Adam or Noah; according to Judaism, Christianity and Islam they lived more than 1000 years; A normal human will become fool after around 130 years-old. Have you ever seen any criticism says Adam or Noah were fool due to their age? --Aliwiki (talk) 21:57, 7 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: More about Taqya: Two historical examples, one Shia and one non-Shia, can help to have a better understanding: Two great scientist in the history of the world, Avicenna and Galileo. Both were sentenced to death by uneducated foolish Mullahs of their time (Christians and Sunnis), so they denied what they were believing in the court to save their life. It's clear who must be criticized in this matter.--Aliwiki (talk) 12:07, 8 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 11:24, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The article is changed lot (for good as now it looks like a criticsm article & not a bashing one) and imo we can have article stay for now as it is getting improved each passing day (Thanks to efforts of Matthew). I'll try to contrubute to the article but as of now I have other priorities (both on WP & real life). --Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haidertcs 12:06, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment This article should be included in [Criticism of Islam]. As a stand alone article it appears redundant and creates and air of "bashing" Islam. By the way, encyclopedias are not known for there criticism, they are known for presenting generalized information that is accurate about a diversity of subjects. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Warrior777 (talk • contribs)

Comment: I believe this article should be kept separate from Criticism of Islam, as this article is primarily focused on criticism internal to Islam between the two major denominations. If it would make this distinction clearer, I'd be willing to support a title-move to Sunni criticism of Shia Islam and a slight tightening of focus. MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:51, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: I appreciate Matthew's edits on the article, and I am changing my opinion about deletion and vote to keep, as I believe the space which this article can provide for criticism points and related responses can benefit readers. I will make an analysis section on the article talk page to discuss improvement of the article and I invite others to join.--Aliwiki (talk) 15:56, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Allikas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Criticism_of_Twelver_Shi%27ism
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