In the pit bull article there is a controversy on whether any medical journals can be used to cite claims that pit bulls are the cause of the most severe dog bites, compared to other breeds, because medical doctors are not dog experts. Nevertheless, there are many papers in medical journals that report that pit bulls cause the most, and often worst, dog attack injuries. For example, this review says, Of the cases in which the breed was known, the Pit-bull was responsible for the highest percentage of re-ported bites across all the studies followed by mixed breed and then German Shepherds. Currently, no prior studies exist that examine bite severity by breed. Therefore, the relative risk of biting and average tissue damage of bite, calculated using the 240 cases seen at our in- stitutions, was used to determine an overall "risk to own" (Fig. 2). Mixed breed and Pit-bulls were found to not only have the highest relative risk of biting, but were also found to have the highest average tissue damage per bite. and appears to be representative of the literature.

A second concern is whether this literature review by the American Veterinary Medical Association [1] makes all such claims in medical journals unreliable.

A third concern is whether certain papers in medical journals such as this one [2] that cite advocacy websites like Dogsbite.org and/or Animals24-7.org, previously asserted to be unreliable for Wikipedia purposes [3], [4] should be thrown out because they inherit that unreliability. Geogene (talk) 20:34, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I have some initial thoughts. Looking forward to seeing what others have to say. Reliable medical sources (MEDRS) should be cited for information about human health effects of bites from pit bulls relative to other breeds. The review article appears to qualify but its relevance needs to be considered in light of the body of published literature. In this case, the AVMA's lit review also appears reliable. While a veterinary medicine professional society would not typically be reliable for human health, they have relevant expertise for questioning the conclusions reached by medical sources. It goes too far to say that the AVMA piece makes all such claims in medical journals unreliable but the AVMA seems to me to be a reliable source to counter some of the findings from the (human) medical literature.

The problem with this article (Khan, et al) is that it a primary source. Primary sources should not be used to support a conclusion that is debated among reliable secondary and tertiary sources. I saw on the Talk page that the question of whether you can cite a generally reliable source if it relies on Animals24-7 or another unreliable source also came up in relation to a Time magazine article. Similarly, the issue is that popular press is generally unreliable as a source for controversial topics in science.

The whole dog attack and death risk section has sourcing issues and probably needs to be trimmed down. I appreciate that this has been contentious. -- MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫— talk 23:47, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

It's late here but quickly on the last point, no a sources doesn't become unreliable because it uses sources that editors consider unreliable. The reliability of sources on Wikipedia should be based on Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, those guidelines are for the purposes of Wikipedia they won't be universally applicable. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 01:09, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Essentially what is trying to be done is WP:USEBYOTHERS to cite dogsbite.org and animals24-7.org, which as stated by Geogene, were previously determined to be unreliable sources by this community to cite dog bite prevalence among a breed.

WP:RS has guidelines on determining source reliability. The cited source in the article is Time, an otherwise reliable source. They are citing dogsbite.org / animals24-7.org's information about dog statistics in a topic that Time does not typically cover.

WP:USEBYOTHERS states If outside citation is the main indicator of reliability, particular care should be taken to adhere to other guidelines and policies, and to not unduly represent contentious or minority claims.

WP:CONTEXTMATTERS states Information provided in passing by an otherwise reliable source or information that is not related to the principal topics of the publication may not be reliable; editors should cite sources focused on the topic at hand where possible.

So wiki guidelines point to not including it. If the original source of that citation is not reliable to be cited directly, then using WP:USEBYOTHERS is not advisable for including that source, if it's cited by a source that is publishing a topic outside their principal domain.

So now lets flip that to medical journals citing animals24-7 and dogsbite, and using them to reference unreliable data. Do medical journals typically publish about dogs, dog breeds, factors that affect the prevalence of dog bites? The answer is no. Its information provided in passing by an otherwise reliable source outside that sources principal domain. Especially when, you have journals that do cover this topic at hand as their principal domain, stating that breed visualization, which all these medical journals relied upon, are unreliable as proven by multiple studies. In fact, the CDC[5] itself, stopped tracking dog bite data partly because visual identification is unreliable and the inability to make reliable conclusions based on the data. The CDC.

Now, as to A second concern is whether this literature review by the American Veterinary Medical Association [47] makes all such claims in medical journals unreliable.

No one said that medical data in medical journals is unreliable because of what AVMA and Veterinary Journals say in theirs. That is a misrepresentation as all data was not the argument. Strictly about information outside their domain. Medical journals are not in the field of criticizing dog information presented in a study. Veterinary Journals are. WP:CONTEXTMATTERS states Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made in the Wikipedia article and is an appropriate source for that content. In general, the more people engaged in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the writing, the more reliable the publication.. Medical Journals are not reliable sources for dog information, especially when Veterinary Journals contradict their claims[6][7][8].

Open to other interpretations to WP:RS Guidelines though and appreciate anyone willing to dive into this hot topic. Unbiased6969 (talk) 04:12, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Essentially what is trying to be done is WP:USEBYOTHERS to cite dogsbite.org and animals24-7.org no it's not. If the source is otherwise reliable it doesn't have to follow Wikipedia's internal policies. Editors should be careful of sources being whitewashed, but experts can use sources we don't like. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:06, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Would it be appropriate to cite the CDC about the history of France? It's a reliable source, so it doesn't need to follow Wikipedias internal policies right?

Or, is it not the most appropriate source for the topic, especially when you have the National Museum of France can be cited counter to the CDCs claims.

I am having a hard time understanding why any wikipedia editor shouldn't evaluate different reliable sources to determine what source is the most reliable on a given topic. Unbiased6969 (talk) 03:30, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes it would be appropriate not cite the CDC for the history of disease in France. Editors absolutely should use their own good judgement and the relevant policies and guidelines when considering the reliability of sources. But the issue here is disagreement between sources, and that is sometimes best described in the article rather than simply rejected. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:59, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• doi:10.1016/j.joms.2019.11.002 is primary research and generally unreliable for WP:BMI. It shouldn't be used, and especially not to undercut WP:SECONDARY sources. Bon courage (talk) 05:32, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  Sources are primary or secondary in context. What about the part of the paper where Khan et al. comment on the status of existing literature? Geogene (talk) 05:42, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  And also, for example, this social commentary: An area of contentious challenge between dog lobbyists and medical providers is that of breed identity, which seems to be a lightning rod for some dog lobby (principally pit bulls) enthusiasts who contend that identification of "the pit bull terrier type dog" is challenging and imprecise. There is precedent for countering this challenge in legal court briefs: "There exists no better method of identifying a pit bull dog than by its appearance. (American Dog Owners Association vs Dade City, Florida; No 89-771-CIV; 1989) and furthermore "pit bulls are readily identifiable...both by dog owners of ordinary intelligence and by enforcement personnel (State of Ohio vs Anderson, Supreme Court of Ohio brief No. 89-2113; 1991) Breed identification via genetic confirmation is not necessary to gain a firm understanding of this area of dog related trauma. I'm concerned that applying MEDRS to this entire paper but not veterinary papers will hobble the ability to source medical POVs in a multi-POV controversy. Geogene (talk) 06:08, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

The source may be useful for WP:NOTBMI though a primary research item is never going to be the best. Bon courage (talk) 06:20, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

• The trouble with the "secondary" bit of primary sources is that it is almost always selected/framed/spun with the goal of bolstering the primary finding (one wouldn't want to do the opposite, for obvious reasons) and so not indicative of knowledge in the field generally. This is why MEDRS is as it is: use reviews articles, meta-analyses, systematic reviews or better. Primary sources, not. Bon courage (talk) 06:19, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  In any case, I trust that this primary veterinary poster presentation [9] about animal shelter volunteers that Unbiased6969 posted above isn't usable to make claims about breed identification in attack risks for the same reason? Geogene (talk) 06:31, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  It's not usable for WP:BMI, for sure. For other things, dunno - not my area! Bon courage (talk) 06:38, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  Agreed, it's not trying to be used for WP:BMI. It's being used to show that claims about dog breeds inside medical journals are widely known by the Veterinary Academic community to be unreliable. It's also a visual representation of a study that was done by the authors, and not just some poster as was stated. Unbiased6969 (talk) 13:52, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

• Dog pages are wild. It's a reliable source. Primary research is likely due in this case, and the secondary parts of the paper are certainly due. Most sources on dog breeds are written by aficionados of that particular breed and suffer from extreme neutrality problems.--Boynamedsue (talk) 06:36, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  Going though this I'm a bit lost, am I being naive that medical experts would be more knowledgeable about injuries to humans than vets? -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:07, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  No one is questioning whether medical experts are knowledgeable in the field of injuries. It's questioning whether they're experts in statements made by dog breeds in their work.

  They're not. Unbiased6969 (talk) 13:45, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  It's like saying medical journals can't be used to say cigarettes cause cancer because medics are not tobacco experts. Bon courage (talk) 13:58, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  Respectfully, that's a false equivalency. You visually identify different types of cigarettes reliably and make a reliable decision of their effects.

  As pointed out my veterrinary academia, you cannot identify a dog breed visually in a reliable manner and make a meaningful decision. As concluded by the CDC itself in my first comment. Unbiased6969 (talk) 14:07, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  You reflect what the good sources say. If they say smoking causes cancer, reflect that. If they don't go into the weeds about "light" variety cigarettes or menthol ones, don't say that. Bon courage (talk) 14:16, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  Understandable. I'd go one further though. I'd say you primarily present the academic concensus on the topic, then briefly mention the minority/controversial view point. So in this case, present primarily the academic concensus that no breed has been reliably determined to be more responsibe for inuries/deaths. Then mention that some medical studies have made this claim, but relied upon breed identification, which is known to be unreliable. Unbiased6969 (talk) 14:33, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

There are next to no proper scientific papers on dog breeds, outside of those on health problems and wolf DNA. A medical paper which indicates that injuries reported to be by pitbull type dogs represents x per cent of their case load or whatever is entirely reliable for that claim, and is likely to make it due. The fact that sometimes people misidentify pitbulls can also be reported where that is cited. However, we cannot disqualify a RS reporting "people say pitbulls do this" because another RS says "sometimes people mistake pitbulls for other types of dogs".--Boynamedsue (talk) 20:58, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

There are no proper scientific papers on dog breeds? Have you dived into the topic to make such a bold claim?

I can show you multiple genetic studies performed on multiple dog breeds trying to isolate aggression to a gene, but repeatedly coming to the same conclusion that aggression in dogs is universal and likely a remnant of their predecessor wolves. Seems like a lot of science from academics to be deemed unreliable.

I disagree with your last point. The context of sources should be evaluated and if an otherwise reliable source is being used to make claims outside their domain, which is in counter to information published by those that study the topic, then using that source outside to cite the information in contradiction to academia is improper without giving more weight to academia. Unbiased6969 (talk) 22:38, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Genetics-based studies on dog breeds and aggression do not usually meet the standard for reliable scientific research. It's all "from our sample of 50 dogs" and "reports of aggression by owners". There is not going to be a "gene for aggression", because that isn't how the genetics works.--Boynamedsue (talk) 23:26, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Wait why are genetic studies unreliable but the medical ones brought up earlier aren't?

The Khan paper has a sample size of 182 patients and relied on patients to report what type of dog bit them. The Essig paper calculated bite severity based on a sample of 240, again, relying on patients to report breed.

A cursory glance at canine behavioural genetics research is showing sample sizes of 1,975 with behaviour based on owner questionnaires [10], sample size of 6,818 w/ questionnaires [11], sample size 397 w/ questionnaires [12] (notably this one also says "Pit Bull-type dogs showed reduced risk of owner-directed aggression"), sample size 9,270 dogs with questionnaire [13], etc

Why are owners* untrustworthy for reporting aggression, but reliable for reporting dog breed? (*inevitably many of the patients aren't the owner since some are strays, etc.)

Dogs aren't really my field so I don't know what papers on pit bulls specifically are out there, but behavioural genetics is absolutely a real field of scientific research. More complex than there being a "gene for aggression" sure, but genetic predispositions to aggression based on certain mutations is a legitimate topic of study

(also fair warning I might not reply to/notice any responses to this comment... real life is busy rn. feel free to ping me a couple times if you need me to respond) CambrianCrab (talk) 00:34, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

oh quick clarifying comment tho, no idea if the papers I linked are relevant to the overall topic of this thread or the article in question, just referencing them for methods CambrianCrab (talk) 00:37, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

This seems to be asking for speculation, but okay. Is it not possible that pit bull owners might be less likely to report aggressive behaviors than other dog owners because they perceive their dog as unfairly stigmatized? Are dog owners even able to consistently recognize aggression? The Bailey paper [14] (PMID 33136964) that was much praised earlier says that even the aggression tests used by animal shelters are controversial and often wrong.

What percentage of dog attacks are perceived by the owner after the fact as having occurred "without warning"?

Also, dog attacks are extremely rare overall. Is a sample size of 10,000 pet dogs that have (presumably) not attacked before large enough to make actionable predictions about dogs that attack?

Why would a dog owner know their dog was a pit bull? I assume that's because they researched breeds of dogs, then decided they wanted a pit bull, and then bought a shorthaired, muscular and mildly brachycephalic dog that resembled a pit bull through a "pit bulls for sale" ad. If so, then it seems reasonable to assume their dog is a pit bull until evidence is produced otherwise. Geogene (talk) 01:23, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

oh, not trying to invite speculation, I might have just been unclear, sorry. My point was just that both genetic studies and the dog bite studies rely on owners/laypeople to report something (behavior and breed, respectively) that some sources say is, at least to some degree, unreliable.

From what I could tell, Boynamedsue was saying that because owner reports of aggression aren't always reliable, a scientific paper that we might otherwise consider reliable, but uses owner reports of aggression, doesn't meet the standard for reliable scientific research

In contrast, the dog bite papers that use layperson reports of dog breed, which have also been reported to be unreliable by various sources, remain reliable regardless.

Essentially, I'm just confused as to why we would discard one set of sources (behavioural genetics) because they use a metric that some consider unreliable, but we aren't discarding the other (dog bite studies).

If both types of studies are published in high-quality journals by experts in their field, I'm hesitant to say that we as editors should be making that type of judgement call on either to say "these methods are bad so this source is unreliable".

The sample size bit was mainly in response to the "from our sample of 50 dogs" which I assume was hyperbole but didn't seem to reflect any of the sources I saw.

CambrianCrab (talk) 03:15, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

The 50 dogs one wasn't hyperbole, it referred to a genome study of cocker spaniels. But yes, my main point is that if you wanted to find out about the behaviour of humans, asking their mums and reporting the findings uncritically would not be the best methodology.--Boynamedsue (talk) 13:57, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Since you ask, my belief is that owner reports of their dog's level of aggression are entirely subjective. It is asking an owner to evaluate and judge what they believe to be a beloved member of the family for a negative trait. Owners frequently reassure people their dog is harmless, despite it clearly not being. Nobody knows a dog worse than its owner.

I consider reports on the type of dog that attacked a patient to be more reliable. Most people know what a pit bull type dog looks like, and given the victim is most often the owner, a member of the family of the owner or a friend of the same, the victim will often have actual knowledge of how the dog was sold.--Boynamedsue (talk) 06:22, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Aight I have an extra 15, so quick reply: What I was trying to say was we shouldn’t decide that an entire sub-discipline isn’t “proper science” just because one of their methods has been criticized (for behavioral genetics or the medical dog bite stuff). I think Bon courage said it better (or at least more concisely) CambrianCrab (talk) 23:55, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

In any case, the questionnaire based studies would certainly be reliable for the statements "owners report pit bulls have low level of human-directed aggression", we could then discuss how due that might be.--Boynamedsue (talk) 06:47, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• Just for a slight aside, there are cases where you can have instances like this. In the entomology world (I know it's not an insect), spider bites are often misidentified, and it's a real-world issue that's been brought up related to human doctors. So yes, doctors could be misidentifying something, but there would need to be MEDRS sources making that claim rather than someone trying to claim medical professionals don't have sufficient expertise like what you're responding to. That's the key distinction, but I can unfortunately see how easily the argument being made came up too. KoA (talk) 15:54, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  Exactly. Medical professions are certainly reliable to say, thats a dog bite. However, not reliable to say thats a dog bite from this specific breed. Unbiased6969 (talk) 22:39, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  That is not "exactly" what I said, quite the opposite. KoA (talk) 18:56, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  This reminds me of some other arguments other the definition of words, with one group using a more general sense and the other using a hyper specific sense.

  Maybe the solution is to describe the issue in the article, noting the research results but then mentioning that the general idea of a pit bull doesn't match the veterinary definition. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:12, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  You are then giving WP:FRINGETHEORIES the primary narrative in an article, and allowing the academic concensus on a topic take the back seat. Unbiased6969 (talk) 14:00, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think fringe is applicable when discussing articles from a high quality source, describe the discrepancy it's one that is common place even outside this specific issue. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 14:06, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  So, if I am hearing this correctly. Your opinion would be that it's okay to cite vaccine skeptics's claims about autism in x% of people, in the Wiki article about vaccines, so long as those fringe theory claims were sourced from a reliable source thats making those claims outside their principal domain of publication? Because that's the equivalence being applied here. Unbiased6969 (talk) 14:12, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  No, because the WP:BESTSOURCES on vaccines say different. Bon courage (talk) 14:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  When we have strong WP:MEDRS like PMID:33136964 there is no reason to use primary sources, in fact that's exactly what not to do. I can only imagine this topic has a POV-problem if editors are promoting low-quality sources and swerving quality ones. Bon courage (talk) 13:20, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  Medical journals are reliable for medical information. They're not reliable for dog breed related information. WP:CONTEXTMATTERS states that one needs to evaluate whether the source is the appropriate for the claims made. In this case it's not, especially when it goes against the vast majority of Veterinary academia. Unbiased6969 (talk) 13:48, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  They're certainly reliable for medical information and almost certainly reliable for dog breed information related to it, peer-reviewed WP:SCHOLARSHIP in high-quality, WP:SECONDARY, peer-reviewed sources is top-notch however you look at it. If there are equivalent veterinary publications purely on the quesion of 'dog breeds' then they would be preferable, but for dog bite effects on people - which is what this query is about - we'd need MEDRS. Luckily, it exists. Bon courage (talk) 13:56, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  For dog bite effects on people, sure. However that's not what trying to be done on the article page. Instead, the medical journals are trying to be used as sourced to write that pit bulls have a outsized portion of injuries as determined by visual identification, when studies have show that visual identification is unreliable. Unbiased6969 (talk) 14:03, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  PMID:33136964, which is a golden source, says:

  German Shepherd and Pit Bull–type breeds account for the largest subset of severe dog bites reported in the medical literature. Our recommendations to physicians and to researchers, activists, and legislators are also included. However, these data must be heeded and acted on to further understand and minimize severe dog bites in the future, especially those inflicted on children.

  and it also says the dog breed recognition is often flawed, which complicates this finding. Wikipedia should reflect this knowledge. It's not hard. Bon courage (talk) 14:12, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  This is the source that should be used, with mention of the issues of identification. Traumnovelle (talk) 20:14, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Any attempt to relate severity of bites to dog breed obviously involves assessment of 1. the severity / damage inflicted by the bite (a medical matter in which doctors and academics of medicine are experts) and 2. the breed of the dog responsible (not a medical matter, not one in which those same people are experts).

But surely point 2 is a red herring - no medical professionals are going to publish papers in medical journals in which they are relying on their own inspection of dogs to determine the dogs' breeds! Papers are likely either blindly believing patient or witness reports about a dog's breed (probably unreliable - the critics have a point) or have collaborated with relevant experts (police / animal charities / whatever other entity is responsible for breed identification after a dog attack in their jurisdiction) who do have expertise in breed determination, in which case the criticism has no sting at all. To determine which category any given paper falls into, and therefore whether its breed-related conclusions can be trusted, read the paper and see how they say they determined breed. ExplodingCabbage (talk) 15:37, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

It is not the job of Wikipedia editors to determine if a high-quality source can be trusted. The job is rather to reflect what it says. Bon courage (talk) 15:41, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

This is question-begging; if a study's methodology is junk, it's not a "high-quality source" in the first place. ExplodingCabbage (talk) 15:56, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

It's a wiki editors job to evaluated the context of sources to determine whether the source being used is the appropriate one for that information. Unbiased6969 (talk) 22:42, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

The source's quality (including that of its methodology) is determined by the journal editors and peer-reviewers, not by amateur Wikipedians with an axe to grind. This is fairly basic. Bon courage (talk) 05:02, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

A medical journal is more than qualified to review about medical information. WP:CONTEXTMATTERS states Information provided in passing by an otherwise reliable source or information that is not related to the principal topics of the publication may not be reliable. Its quite clear that using medical journals to cite information about dog related topics, when veterinary journals contradict their claims, should not be viewed reliable based on WP:RS. editors should cite sources focused on the topic at hand where possible. Its possible to cite contradictory information from Veterinary journals, so unless someone has a bias for medical journals that affects their decision making, I am not sure why this is even a issue. Medical journals are good for reviewing medical information, not dog breed information. Unbiased6969 (talk) 05:26, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

It's not contradictory. Bon courage (talk) 05:41, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, no. You can't decide you don't want medical sources on articles that talk about dog bites. They are clearly relevant.--Boynamedsue (talk) 06:34, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

2. would be something valid under the medical purview. Causes of injuries or disease are something medical professionals have to assess all the time such as bacteria, fungi, viruses, etc. and strains of those causing that. If a paper calls for it, you'll likely involve epidemiologists or even more specialized specialists who work on the causative organisms primarily. Frankly, that statement looks like a severe misunderstanding of what epidemiologists do and publish on. KoA (talk) 16:03, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I will point out that studies have shown that visual identification is unreliable, even among professionals. Not sure if that changes your mind on the latter. [15][16] Unbiased6969 (talk) 01:29, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• Advocates target all pit bull types, and support BSL, which is proven not to work. They also tend to be relentless in their quest to include media hype, misinformation, and/or malinformation from police reports that often contain incomplete information primarily based on visual IDs during a traumatic event. Those reports are also used as the basis for the information used by some science/medical journals, and so it goes. It is expected that some of our best editors can also be misled based on similar circumstances, causing them to latch on to a position that results in major time sinks and debates that never seem to end...and here we are now.

1. Fact - all dogs bite. Many dog owners have been lax in the proper training and socialization of their dogs, particularly strong, muscular dogs, regardless of breed. Chihuahuas can even do serious damage. Bites typically result from improper training, purposeful mistreatment, or leaving small children unattended with dogs, especially children who are unfamiliar with dog behavior.
2. Fact - visually identifying a dog as belonging to a specific breed can be an exercise in futility. Some dogs may look like a particular breed but DNA testing may prove differently. Dogs that are registered with one of the reputable breed associations such as the (AKC, KC, UKC, are better able to positively identify a dog by its pedigree, records of which are kept by the respective breed registry. In many cases, there will be DNA evidence to support the pedigree. For accuracy, DNA testing is required, but rarely done when a child or adult is treated for a dog bite, or when police take eye-witness reports right after a traumatic event. Even some dog owners have been known to misidentify the breed of their dog, referring to them as a "pit bull" when it's a mixed breed. This practice of misidentifying dogs has gone on for decades and has proven harmful to modern purebreds such as Staffordshire Bull Terriers, American Bulldogs, and the like, dogs bred specifically to be show dogs. Granted, dogs are being bred illegally as fighting dogs but those dogs originate from specific strains purposely bred for combat, and are not the modern show dogs registered with reputable breed registries.
3. Breed doesn't determine personality - in a most recent study ..."the largest study of its kind, the team compared the genetic and survey data of nearly 2000 dogs—most of which had their entire genomes sequenced—and survey results from an additional 16,000 pooches. The pups included mixes and purebreds, with 128 breeds represented." See Science.org
4. Pit bull advocacies have been referred to as racially motivated issues according to the following study The racialization of pit bulls: What dogs can teach us about racial politics.
5. CDC is against BSL - The CDC strongly recommends against breed-specific laws in its oft-cited study of fatal dog attacks, noting that data collection related to bites by breed is fraught with potential sources of error (Sacks et al., 2000). See this report. Quote: "No breed owns any particular trait." ELAINE OSTRANDER U.S. NATIONAL HUMAN GENOME RESEARCH INSTITUTE
6. Pit bull or pitbull is NOT a breed of dog - there is only one recognized breed with "pit bull" in its name, and it is the UKC's American Pit Bull Terrier which is not recognized by the other breed registries. "Pit bull terrier" is a ubiquitous term used by people who, quite routinely, are uneducated about dog breeds, and don't know the difference between mongrels and mixed breeds vs a modern, registered dog with a pedigree and DNA test results documented by a dog breed registry. Those dogs are bred to be show dogs, or dogs that compete in obedience trials, tracking, etc. Scores of innocent dogs have been/are still being euthanized as a result of misidentification and misinformation.
7. Pit bulls are the most frequent targets of breed-specific bans, despite the misidentifications; other breeds that are also banned may include Rottweilers, Dobermans, and boxers.
8. Another example of malinformation: see this diff wherein Geogene cites a news article by the BBC which states: After the tip-off to the police, Lola was measured and assessed. An American bulldog crossed with an English Staffordshire bull terrier, she was classified as pit-bull-type. Pit bull terriers are one of the four breeds of dog banned under the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 alongside the Japanese Tosa, the Dogo Argentino, and the Fila Brazileiro. I question "assessed" - was it a visual assessment or a DNA assessment? It also states "Pit bull terriers are one of the four breeds of dog banned under ...." yada yada. Pit bull terrier is NOT a breed. I consider this information to be questionable at best.

• Sadly, staunch advocates against pit bull and terrier types refuse to relent. WP doesn't allow advocacy editing, so this needs to be addressed. Our project has had more than its share of advocacies, and one of the worst was a multiple sock editor who first went by Nomopbs. WP:PAG do not allow the inclusion of incorrect, misleading, or malinformation, much of which may be motivated by a misplaced fear of dogs, or inspired by hyped-up media reports with visual misidentifications of dogs, and/or based on incorrect/incomplete police & hospital reports that used the ubiquitous term "pit bull", not to mention small studies of behavior analysis based on the aforementioned. Atsme 💬 📧 21:09, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Atsme:, are you able to explain what's wrong with my diff [17] you just posted? You seem to be accusing me of wrongdoing there. Geogene (talk) 22:16, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  I think her issue may be with the phrase "banned breed"; arguably there is no such thing in the UK. Government documenation at https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public/banned-dogs stresses that in the UK we have banned "types" (defined by physical features/appearance), not banned "breeds" (defined by ancestry). However, I note that despite this it is common for media sources and police spokesmen to use the term "banned breed" and that basically everyone refers to the UK law as BSL (breed-specific legislation); arguably usage in mainstream sources vindicates using the term "banned breed" in the UK context even if strictly speaking it is a misnomer. I take no position for now; this argument doesn't belong on this noticeboard anyway. ExplodingCabbage (talk) 02:39, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  Geogene, even the title of this discussion is wrong, and for whatever reason, you either purposely refuse or are simply unable to understand that pit bull is not a breed. It's a ubiquitous description that attempts to define a dog by its visual appearance which has been proven repeatedly to be unreliable. Just the use of the term pit bull invokes the horrors of racial slurs from years past that were used to define certain races of people, classifying them as criminal, incompetent, etc. My detailed explanation above covers it. The crux of the problem rests with laypersons not understanding what constitutes a recognized purebred or specific breed of dog vs mongrel, mutt, or mixed breed, and that definitely includes the medical literature. The bite of a Rottweiler mix can be as deadly as a Staffie's bite if not worse. The medical literature needs to stick to human assessments and should seek advice from canine/dog breed professionals.

  The article I linked to said the dog was "assessed" - how was it assessed - by a visual ID, or what the owner of the dog believes the dog to be? Is there DNA proof? Ask yourself what you're defining as a pit bull? If it's not a registered dog, how do they know the parentage? By looks, which is proven to be unreliable? It's a dog - a mutt that bit someone. Using ubiquitous terms has to stop. It's very possible the dog is NOT related whatsoever to any of the bull and terrier breeds or it could be so distant, it doesn't matter. Unless they know the dogs parentage for certain, it's a mongrel or simply a dog...and that's all we really know for certain. And that is what's wrong with your comment in the link, and each time you use the term. The pit bull article needs to be completely rewritten. Atsme 💬 📧 14:08, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, even as the wokest person I know, this is the first time I've come across "pit bull is a slur". I would kindly ask you to stop comparing attempts to describe dog breeds to racism. It's offensive. Dogs are animals, you know, the things we eat. If you are shocked by people calling dogs "pit bulls", wait until you find out what we do to pigs.

And your point doesn't make sense. The majority of dog bite victims are the owners of the dog in question, or their friends and family members (just as the most likely person to be killed by a gun is the owner or their family members). In which case they know the breed. If you then answer, "ah, but they may be wrong" then no research whatsoever on dog breeds that does not involve standardised genetic testing is valid. This means we have to delete 99% of our sources in all dog articles.--Boynamedsue (talk) 06:42, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• Ironically, this comment itself feels like an activist screed, and is highly one-sided. I'll put a counter to just two of your numbered points, though I take some issue with every one of them:

  1. Even if we accept as true that bites "typically result" from owner negligence (I don't know if that's true), there's absolutely no contradiction between that and the position that some breeds are more dangerous than others. Multiple factors can contribute to the same bad outcome.

  5. The US government is against BSL? Well, symmetrically, the UK government is for it, and we have it here. Neither can be assumed to be right; it is not a knockdown argument either way.

  Wikipedia needs to present both sides of this argument; certainly there are good sources available for both. ExplodingCabbage (talk) 02:31, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• Comment. Shouldn't the first question be whether this is even worth adding to the article at all? From my point of view, "dog breeds with the nastiest bite to humans" seems like fairly trivial information. Yvan Part (talk) 22:34, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  Is bite risk not a fairly prominent controversy with pit bulls? Geogene (talk) 22:52, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, the (real or perceived, depending on which side of the argument you believe) dangerousness of pitbulls is pretty much the single most notable thing about them; conclusions of studies relating to that are very likely to be significant in the context of that issue and thus worthy of discussion in the article (though not necessarily individually, and not not necessarily mean uncritically). ExplodingCabbage (talk) 02:46, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  No one is arguing against referencing the controversy around pit bulls in the article. Thats obviously noteworthy and can be source md reliably. Whats being argued is not citing unreliable sources on bite stats because none exist.

  
  

  The controversy around pit bulls is absolutely a topic. However, there are no reliable statisitcs about any dog bite data to cite in the article. The CDC itself, discredited their study for being unreliable. This, along with every academic veterinary organization. Unbiased6969 (talk) 03:20, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  No one is arguing... - yes they are. In the grandparent comment that this subthread is about, @Yvan Part questions whether this information is even noteworthy enough to include, irrespective of reliability. ExplodingCabbage (talk) 04:22, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  I don't see that as arguing against mentioning the topic of controversy. I see it as arguing that the specific quote stated in their comment is of little importance. Otherwise, why quote and not just mention the topic in general? The quote was picked for a reason, and I think it was meant to highlight the subjectivity of the source's language not being impactful to meaningful discussion rather than a critique of the general topic. However, Yvan Part can clarify and prove me wrong. Unbiased6969 (talk) 05:33, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  Settle down, I was just throwing in the idea that, in their haste to discuss whether this is a reliable source or not, editors might have missed the bigger picture that this information might not be worth adding in the first place. I'm not championing that idea and other editors are free to debate its merits without my input.

  The controversy mentioned, I'm guessing around pitbulls in general, seems out of the scope of this RSN section and is probably better discussed on the article talkpage instead.

  @Unbiased6969 I understand that you might be passionate about this topic but trying to convince and replying to everyone is considered WP:BLUDGEONING which can rapidly land you in hot waters. Yvan Part (talk) 16:21, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for the lead on the WP:BLUDGEOMING. Never seen that one before, but I will take a break from here to read up on it. Unbiased6969 (talk) 19:33, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Comment I think it matters here whether we are asking if the studies are reliable enough for us to repeat their findings in Wikipedia's voice as objective truth, or whether we are asking whether they are reliable enough to merely neutrally mention the existence of the studies and what they concluded, with critical viewpoints also mentioned and given similar weight.

Different commenters seem to be assuming different about which of those levels of reliability we're arguing about. I was taking as an obvious starting point that peer-reviewed research that isn't unambiguously retracted or debunked is at least reliable enough to cite and mention the conclusions of, though not necessarily as objective truth. To my surprise, though, other commenters seem to be arguing that an entire area of published research is all so unreliable that it cannot be cited at all. Such a position seems to me like it requires an extraordinarily robust case against all the published work in that area. I don't yet see such a case given here. ExplodingCabbage (talk) 04:40, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

You've read WP:MEDRS? Bon courage (talk) 05:04, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I believe you may have been mentioning me on the last point, but if not then apologies and ignore. I think it can simply come down to whether Medical Journals or Veterinary Journals are WP:BESTSOURCES for claims about breed related information. I don't believe that an entire area of published research is all so unreliable that it cannot be cited at all. Medical Journals have great information in them about effects/injuries of dog bite, etc. However, they are not reliable in making determinations about what breed of dog bit, or what rate a breed bites. As another editor mentioned here[18] the errors by medical professionals making claims outside their domain is not exclusive to dogs. If there was not any data out there showing visual identification was unreliable, then I don't see a problem citing medical journals, absent better information. However, there is data showing their methods used to make those claims to be unreliable, and their claims run counter to every veterinary academic organization I have found. As such, BESTSOURCES states When writing about a topic, basing content on the best respected and most authoritative reliable sources helps to prevent bias, undue weight, and other NPOV disagreements. I don't see the argument for basing breed related information from a Medical Journal, when Veterinary Journals provide information in contradiction. I have read WP:MEDRS and its talking about biomedical information. A claim about which dogs bite, is not biomedical information, its veterinary and maybe even sociology. No one is questioning the reliability of medical data inside a medical journal, or if they have, I haven't seen it.

Not to be lost in all this, is the attempt to use WP:USEBYOTHERS to cite information originating from dogsbite.com & animals24-7.org, which were already deemed to be unreliable.[19] Currently the article cites Time, which cites Animals24-7.org that independent organizations have published statistics based on hospital records showing pit bulls are responsible for more than half of dog bite incidents among all breeds despite comprising only 6% of pet dogs. The claims are contrary to the academic view point and represent a minority view and citing it ignores WP:USEBYOTHERS own text, along with WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. Only seems logical if a source is not reliable to cite their own information, that using another source to cite that unreliable information is ill-advised, unless said source was an authority in the topic presenting information in support of that previously unreliable claim. Unbiased6969 (talk) 06:21, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

It's quite simple. PMID:33136964 says that

1. German Shepherd and Pit Bull–type breeds account for the largest subset of severe dog bites reported in the medical literature
2. But dog breed identification is often unreliable, which complicates this reporting

These are both items of factual knowledge which can be asserted. How is this hard? Bon courage (talk) 06:25, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

So, we are going to ignore WP:DUE and WP:FRINGE then? Because using these "reliable sources" is being used to give weight to fridge theories that run against academic consensus...

WP:FRINGE states it needs a reliable source, but a reliable source is vague, so wikipedia has a whole article about WP:RS where it mentions WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. Whixh states Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made in the Wikipedia article and is an appropriate source for that content. Spoiler, the medical journal study is not an appropriate source for dog breed content. Furthermore, Information provided in passing by an otherwise reliable source or information that is not related to the principal topics of the publication may not be reliable; editors should cite sources focused on the topic at hand where possible. Medical journals are otherwise reliable sources providing information in passing that is outside their publication domain.

There seems to be this bias that Medical Journals are universally reliable for information that is outside their scope and it needs to be addressed. Medical researchers are critiqing medical information in studies, they are not dog experts to be capable of reviewing these claims. I think accepting that not every claim made in a medical journal that is outside their topic domain is needed here, especially when it supports a WP:FRINGE inside that academic area. Unbiased6969 (talk) 15:04, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

What are you even on about? A medical review article is the best possible source to say what is reported in the medical literature. The secondary observation (that identifying the 'breeds' is likely flawed so the result are problematic) is something that nobody disagrees with (indeed it's what you have been arguing). The invocation of WP:FRINGE is bizarre. WTF is going on here? Bon courage (talk) 15:13, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

The point is, on a dog breed page, there shouldn't be a good arguement for using medical journals to cite information outside their domain, when that information cited is in direct conflict of academia and veterinary research. Just like I wouldn't cite a veterinary journal on a medical page when medical sources conflict with whats being cited. Unbiased6969 (talk) 19:26, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

As I stated above this argument, Not to be lost in all this, is the attempt to use WP:USEBYOTHERS to cite information originating from dogsbite.com & animals24-7.org, is wrong on several counts. USEBYOTHERS is a way that editors of Wikipedia can judge if a source is reliable, it has nothing to do with your argument or how secondary sources decide to use sources. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 14:04, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Thats whats being done... WP:CONTEXTMATTERS Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made in the Wikipedia article and is an appropriate source for that content. I'm not sure how else to explain it, but it's pretty clear to me that Time's citation in the article is being judged here. The argument is that it's not the proper source for such a claim as it's publications are outside the topic domain and higher quality sources cite conflicting data. Unbiased6969 (talk) 14:43, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

So you're saying a medical review article is not reliable for saying what is reported in the medical literature? What? Bon courage (talk) 15:14, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

No. I'm saying that a medical journal shouldn't be the citation source for information relating to a dog breed when the information is direct conflict with Veterinary Journals and wide spread veterinary academic concensus. Unbiased6969 (talk) 19:18, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

That seems to be a bit too easy... You could use that trick to screen out whole groups of experts from most topics. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:09, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Hooray, so it is at least conceded we an appropriate source saying "German Shepherd and Pit Bull–type breeds account for the largest subset of severe dog bites reported in the medical literature". This is undoubredly true and impeccably sourced. Bon courage (talk) 03:31, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't see why anyone would consider epidemiology, even injury epidemiology, to be "outside the domain" of medicine. If there is an issue with WP:PROPORTION that would seem to be an issue for the other noticeboard, but it seems unlikely anyone would agree to exclude or classify unreliable medical literature entirely. Alpha3031 (t • c) 00:28, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

There's no such thing as "inheriting unreliability." A random person on the street or a random youtube video are unreliable sources, but if a reliable media outlet uses such sources the resulting article is generally reliable.

Likewise, a scholarly journal can use data from sources we consider "generally unreliable." Unlike Wikipedia editors they are experts and may be able to distinguish unreliable and reliable information. Alaexis_¿question? 21:27, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

At the very least, the claims of reliable medical sources should be included with attributive explanation (something like, for example with made-up details, A 2024 review of severe dog bites resulting in hospitalizations found pit bulls to be the most commonly responsible breed, with 66% of severe bites attributed to a pit bull.) We can’t conceal a real piece of medical literature. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 22:09, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Posting here for visibility. I have no opinion on whether the allegations are true, but they deserve our attention because if they are, these six reporters have a flagrant conflict of interest with respect to the current war. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 14:30, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Allegations according to the IDF, a known unreliable source that seems to have a bad habit of killing journalists, especially Al Jazeera journalists, that write things the IDF doesn't like, denied by Al Jazeera, a known reliable source? Selfstudier (talk) 14:42, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

It is easy for those who passionately oppose current Israeli policy in the region to dismiss the IDF's claims as lies, just as it is equally easy for those who passionately oppose the activities of Hamas and other Palestinian liberation groups to label their supporters as terrorists. There is no profit to be had in speculating about the claims yet; the prudent path is to wait and see if anything concrete emerges, and I would like help watching, which is why I posted here. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 15:30, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

It's really irrelevant if one sits on one side or another vis a vis Israel. What is relevant is that the claims come from a party who has a vested interest in pushing a position and that the claims are unverified. TarnishedPath^talk 15:34, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Ps, we recently had an RFC on the publication that the journalists worked for and there was consensus towards the reliability. TarnishedPath^talk 15:36, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

No they do not until a third party RS goes "I say, good point that man". Slatersteven (talk) 15:36, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Your reason that they "they deserve our attention" doesn't appear to be based in policy and/or guideline. That would appear to be your own personal opinion presented as something which is representative of the community, don't do that. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:01, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Claims

• IDF
  • Found documents in Gaza
  • Documents prove 6 reporters had connection to militant groups
  • Documents prove integration of Hamas terrorist and Al Jazeera
• Al Jazeera
  • The documents were fabricated
  • Warns IDF fabricated as a justification for targeting its journalists
  • Says blatant attempt to silence journalists
  • Says silencing journalist is to hide realities of war
• Reuters
  • not able to immediately verify the authenticity of the documents

Can't decide between these claims based on any Wikipedia RfC's. Reuters is the most important here. fiveby(zero) 18:29, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Per the Time link I gave above:

"Earlier this year, RSF examined Israel’s targeted killing of two other Al Jazeera correspondents–Ismail al-Ghoul and Rami al-Rifi, killed by a drone strike on their car shortly after reporting live from a location near the family home of Hamas political chief Ismail Haniyeh, who had been assassinated in Iran earlier that day. Israel asserted that al-Ghoul was a “Hamas military wing operative and Nukhba terrorist,” referring to the group’s elite Nukhba Brigade. The RSF investigation noted “numerous inconsistencies” in Israel’s evidence, including the assertion that al-Ghoul received a military rank in 2007, when he would have been 10 years old."

CPJ is reported on Sky News saying that they have seen the documents and they "don't appear to be credible" (https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1849549035725607378) Selfstudier (talk) 18:55, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I was trying to show that we can neither:

1. relitigate the RfC with new evidence nor
2. assert any claims in content (RfC irrelevant in this situation)

without multiple RS's telling us the validity of the documents. Unless there is another possible result, what's wrong with: notified and noted. done? fiveby(zero) 20:00, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

unless there is clear proof we should assume journalists are journalists.

idf claims in the past include refusal to acknowledge killing of Shireen Abu Akleh and even the Committee to Protect Journalists has indicated Israel has made similar claims in the past to justify killing journalists [20] Bluethricecreamman (talk) 19:03, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

We know from reliable sources that at least one Gazan reporter was a terrorist (or at least someone holding hostages). Abdullah Aljamal was a reporter for the Palestine Chronicle and wrote one article opinion piece for Al Jazeera.

We should treat these claims with plenty of grains of salt. We should wait for independent reliable sources to report on that. Until they do, the claims by IDF and the counter-claims of Al-Jazeera, a primary source in this case and a biased one, should be treated as claims and attributed accordingly. Alaexis_¿question? 19:19, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Thats an opinion piece, not a news article. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:26, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Eh, are you referring to the CNN article I linked? It's nowhere marked as an opinion piece. Alaexis_¿question? 12:09, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Think they mean the reporter only wrote an opinion piece for AJ, not a news article. Selfstudier (talk) 12:13, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes that is what I mean. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:44, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

You're right, I've amended my comment. Alaexis_¿question? 21:29, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Al Jazeera has had a number of issues and scandals over the years, including failed fact checks, issues around the Qatari state ownership and lack of independence, issues in reporting that differs between their Arabic and English editions with the former being more problematic, employing individuals or participating in discussions and improperly colluding with actors in the conflict, not to mention issues of bias and neutrality. I think this could support a downgrade to at least "needs caution"/"some considerations apply" and perhaps scoped to specific topics such as controversial international politics and A-I conflict issues. Consider other sources that are GUNREL such as Anadolu Agency, Daily Sabah (Turkey), Al Mayadeen (Lebanon), while AJ has a better reputation than those, it has some similar issues and patterns of coverage. Also consider recent discussion on the Jewish Chronicle, and similar treatment of a number of other sources while AJ so far has gotten a pass. While we have to wait to see what comes of this specific IDF document thing, I do think this is an exigency that will cause a new discussion for AJ and likely a new RFC needed when the dust has settled. Andre🚐 23:11, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Reminder, the very recent AJ RFCs were snow closed as reliable. Selfstudier (talk) 12:14, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Before this descends into another free-for-all mess like most of the prior discussions on the source, can I suggest limiting the discussion to anything new?

I'm personally unconvinced by of Al Jazeera's independence when it comes to reporting on matter relating to Qatar, but the prior consensus is obviously against me. The consensus of the recent RFC, it's only been a few months, is also very clear on their general reliability.

For this recent issue I think it's a case of wait and see. If other reliable sources start to question Al Jazeera's reliability over the allegations that would change the matter, but I don't see that that's happened yet. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:37, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Can anyone point to a journalist killed by Israel who was not accused of being a terrorist? This is a clear rhetorical pattern by an interested party that has not been shown to have a meaningful relationship to the truth. These claims should not be used without corroboration from third party sources. Unbandito (talk) 05:19, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

IDF has released more documents allegedly showing Hamas instructing Al Jazeera how to cover the Palestinian liberation movement and related events. As of now, I can't find news media outside Israel discussing these allegations. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 13:35, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

What I don't see irrespective of whether the IDF allegations are true or not is why they are in the least relevant. Are the journalists being accused of carrying arms or directing operations? Have their reports been shown to contain lies rather than journalism? And on that note how many journalists in Israel have not served in the IDF? NadVolum (talk) 17:58, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

It seems to me that if the allegations about the specific journalists are true, then any articles by those specific journalists are probably not sufficiently independent to be considered reliable in this area. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 19:38, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Come back when you know the allegations are true, this discussion is completely pointless, it would have more merit if it was asserting that the IDF were unreliable, for which there is actual evidence. Selfstudier (talk) 19:41, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Well Al Jazeera would sack them for that. The point though is what crime deservng death have they committed? I mean that is basically what the IDF are saying they deserve plus any civilians in their vicinity would be justified collateral. NadVolum (talk) 21:48, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

The Israeli government also issues guidance to media organizations on how they're to cover related topics, especially when it comes to military capabilities. This is a bunch of molehills that people are trying to call a mountain range for political expediency. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:01, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

As to that latest 'revelation' by the IDF, it just doesn't smell right to me. Some people in Al Jazeer being sympathetic to Hamas I could believe. Hamas instructing or advising Al Jazeer about communication and publicity? Who knows more about that! It just doesn't make much sense, the most I could see Hamas would do if they had such a link is ask that Al Jazeer keep quiet about something they might know. If they're doing what the IDF say then they're incredibly stupid. Even more in printing it. NadVolum (talk) 18:15, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterhimler/2012/01/10/wikipedia-the-pr-pro-friend-or-foe/ Never seen one like this before. What is this class of writer considered to be, staff, contributor or neither and what place does it have in reliability scale? Graywalls (talk) 03:44, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Essentially it's a blog for that person. They aren't Forbes staff and there isn't any Forbes editorial control over their material. Treat it as WP:SPS, and determine if the author would be considered an expert in that particular field. Ravensfire (talk) 04:32, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

See WP:FORBESCON for more information. Synonimany (talk) 12:45, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Discogs is entirely deprecated as a ref. But should the text in photos of record labels and album jackets (only) be made an exception? Herostratus (talk) 20:34, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

• Yes. Lets think this thru: works are their own refs, and the photos are accurate representations of the actual work to a 99.9% level of confidence. The label text is not user-generated absent an elaborate hoax, so who uploaded it is immaterial. It is as impossible to mislabel these photos as it is for a movie title screen etc (you can't pass off the label of record X as being the label of record Y). The alternative is continue our current practice: assume the article editor has not made a mistake, and to verify the reader has to get a copy on eBay or whatever. This is not better.
• Yes. How would anyone ever know that an editor is using Discogs vs. a copy of the album that they own? voorts (talk/contributions) 20:43, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
• Primary sources are reliable about themselves and users can include courtesy links for the aid of verification. This is true in all case. As to Discog it's not deprecated, it's unreliable as it's user generated. The primary images it hosts don't make it anymore or less unreliable. This is the same as with the primary documents that ancestry/com hosts, they are reliable in a primary way even if the rest of ancestry/com isn't reliable. None of this changes anything, the references aren't to Discog they are to the primary object (the album in this case), any link to an image on Discog is just an aid for verification purposes. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:13, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I discussed this below. Herostratus (talk) 02:47, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

My points still stand, see my response below. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:13, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

To be clear I'm not bold voting in this RFC as Discog is not deprecated or prohibited, it's unreliable as it's WP:UGC. Nothing in this RFC will change that, and nothing about it being unreliable prohibits the use of a courtesy link to an image of a primary object. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:20, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

• The source is the physical record itself, so Discogs only has to accurately convey the contents of the records. This isn't something it's guaranteed to do, since anyone can upload a photo claiming to be of the record. I agree with ActivelyDisinterested that Discogs should only be treated as an aid for verification purposes, not as a guaranteed accurate representation of a work. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 02:51, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

I discussed this below. "not as a guaranteed accurate representation of a work" just isn't so, if one thinks it thru. Herostratus (talk) 02:47, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Anyone can also upload a scan claiming to be of a book, or upload a picture claiming to be of the subject of the article, and yet that is widely done too. Cortador (talk) 05:53, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

That's why in-practice, it's fine to cite it. It's just that a physical copy would take precedence. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 22:18, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

• Yes. As of now, we rely on some editor just using the information from a copy of the album they presumably have at hand. I support this provided this is limited to actual scans.
• Is that even making an exception? If you find a photo of an album on ebay, amazon, or Jeff's Music Blog, we don't need consensus that those are reliable sources to use it, right? — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:25, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

  This point was repeatedly raised in the discussion prior to this RFC, see WT:RSP#Could we talk some horse sense re Discogs?. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:17, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

• Yes, but as a URL within Template:Cite AV media. A point that nobody here has mentioned is that the physical music release is its own reliable source, just like a book. It has a catalog number, a title, a publisher, a date. If we add a URL pointing to a scan of the same material, it would be a welcome convenience, assisting others with verifiability. The likelihood of someone uploading a false scan is very low; we can address such instances as they arise by comparing to other scans of the same release. Binksternet (talk) 03:51, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• No. Seems like I'm in the minority, but it's unnecessary and a bad precedent. I use Discogs every day--it's riddled with errors. Misspellings, typos, track listing misorder, bad translations, etc.--thousands of mistakes across the site, I imagine. It's appropriate only as an EL. As mentioned above, the album itself is the source; we don't need an inline citation to "help with verifiability". If an editor really wants an image for an inline citation, they can take the time to find one from a source without Discogs' problems. I'm also not sure that it's necessary to turn something that takes 3 seconds (scrolling to the EL, Googling outright) in to something that takes 1 second. And Discogs as an inline citation is constantly abused, with editors using it for exact release dates, genres, album sequential number, etc. Caro7200 (talk) 13:43, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

  Misspellings, typos, track listing misorder, bad translations are all relevant to text hosted on the site, not the text legible in images of release packaging. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 01:09, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

  Exactly. Let's not compound the issue by using such a flawed site for an inline citation when there are much better options. Or again, simply cite the liner notes. Caro7200 (talk) 10:14, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

  What "better options" are there, and what makes their scans preferable? Cortador (talk) 05:43, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

  Right, if the Discogs photo has the wrong songwriter or whatever, the actual record label is going to have the same error.Herostratus (talk) 06:36, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

  For what purpose? Again, it's totally unnecessary to use an image to "verify" or "prove" any credits, at all. Cite the liner notes and use Discogs as an EL. Given Discogs' thousands of UG errors and how it's misused as an inline citation, take the second to scroll to the bottom of the article page. No burden whatsoever. Caro7200 (talk) 14:48, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

• Yes. Editors might easily add an edit summary such as "this discogs photo matches the record in my own collection". If the photo is uploaded to Wiki or Commons, that same explanation would also be useful. The textual contents of sleeve notes / liner notes are already permitted as a valid source for album credits, this just adds secondary validation. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:21, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
• Yes - The images only. The images are just an easily accessed record of the primary source, which is usable as a citation for itself. There should be nothing wrong with this, just be careful to keep it limited ONLY to direct images of the primary source itself, not to any user generated content. User uploaded primary sources should be fine as primary sources. Fieari (talk) 06:20, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
• No If somethings need to be sourced to an image uploaded to an unreliable UGC website then it very likely isn't worthy of inclusion. I don't even understand what exactly is being proposed here, using images of an album to determine who wrote it...? If no reliable sources that Johnny Doe wrote some album then we won't write that Johnny Doe wrote it. Traumnovelle (talk) 09:16, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

  Even RS sources don't always give all the information on a label or don't always accurately report it. I'm not sure why any discogs editor would ever want to falsify what's printed on a label e.g. by photoshopping it. Yes, a label image would be a primary source, but it seems it would still be very reliable. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:35, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah, the rule that "works of art are their own reference" is actually horrible and way way outside our usual comfort zone. For obscure works especially we are effectively saying "OK editor, we'll take your word for it". That's not a whole lot better than "something I saw on the internet" as also a usable source.

But if we didn't -- if we required published reliable secondary sources for material on works of art as we do for most other articles -- our coverage of works of art would be very very much less that we do have. Very few movie and book articles would have Plot sections or would have short incomplete ones, which would leave the reader blind. In fact, most of our movie and many of our book and record articles would have to be destroyed or stubbed -- they don't have any secondary sources. You can't get a cast list etc for most movies, really you can't get anything, if you're sticking to secondary sources. Very few album articles would have track listings. And so on.

It's a problem and its a big problem. Why pretend otherwise. But what else can we do? Cut our coverage of films and books and novels by 75+%? Not going to happen.

I mean c'mon, a reader saying "wait, I thought that song was written by Smith not Jones" is not going to hunt down a copy of the actual record (which for many would be quite difficult or expensive) to verify that. Get real. For a lot of these records -- 78's and records from 1930 etc -- there is, basically, no way for the reader to verify the text. Unless they to go to Discogs or someplace like that -- which I guess they shouldn't -- they'll have to be like "oh well, I'll never know I guess".

Here's one method we could employ to cut that back some. Why would we not want to do that. Herostratus (talk) 04:47, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

The reader can verify that if they've got a copy of that record in their collection. Classic WP:OR, of course. But I'll try and "get real". Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:31, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Can you show me a notable album that cannot have this key information sourced elsewhere? Traumnovelle (talk) 18:22, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Not sure. Just albums, or singles also? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:12, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Either or Traumnovelle (talk) 00:53, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

If this were anything else, the obvious point here would be: if it's not sourceable in an RS, then it is not key information for the purposes of our encyclopedia! Why are we treating this area of information totally differently? Remsense ‥ 论 01:08, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Why do we need to know what is on the label? If you cannot find a reliable source to cover who wrote/performed it then the work is almost certainly not notable unless it is notable for something non-typical. Traumnovelle (talk) 07:02, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Why not allow an editor to use this resource to reference this easily sourced information? Yes, the information could be sourced elsewhere if the target is notable, but why disallow something that makes life easier for editors, and ALSO... and this is more important... make things easier for someone who wants to USE the reference. References aren't a game we play here at wikipedia, there's a purpose to citations and referencing everything. They are to provide the references to users who want to use the information themselves. Referencing the album art for information about itself can be USEFUL to users, and this website has them online for easy viewing. Fieari (talk) 23:46, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Then it can be an external link. I still don't see any album being notable enough for an article but not notable enough to have basic information on unable to be sourced. Traumnovelle (talk) 04:46, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

It is able to be sourced—in the liner notes of the album. Compare to referring to the copyright page on a scanned book to source information about publication. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 16:50, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

@Traumnovelle You're failing to consider that non-notable musical works that are covered in other articles. In the Bobby Floyd (musician) article, I included albums in the discography section that were not covered by the AllMusic reference using {{cite AV media notes}}. I did not add the eBay links where I viewed the liner notes, but I should have, since that is more honest to anyone verifying the article than implying I actually own the physical CD package. It seems straightforwardly ridiculous to argue that albums the musician played on (and one he released under his own name) are undue for inclusion in their own discography section. Mach61 22:07, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

We're not a database. If there is no source beyond the actual material itself it won't merit inclusion. Traumnovelle (talk) 22:13, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

• No. You don't need an exception (nor should we give one), you just need to treat the pictures as authentic, we have a very low (almost non-existent) standard for treating images as authentic, something along the lines of the 'good faith uploader reasonably believed it was a picture of the thing and so does the good faith editor'. But the citation then is not and never should be to the picture, it is to the label/record/album/cover itself. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:39, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
• No – I'm pretty baffled. User-generated sources are not reliable by their very nature—for any other area of the wiki, the fundamental idea is that information that cannot be reliably sourced is not considered for inclusion in our encyclopedia! No one has provided a logical justification, only a pragmatic one that I resent strongly. Remsense ‥ 论 01:15, 19 October 2024 (UTC) See replies. Remsense ‥ 论 20:17, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

  The point is that a primary reference would be reliable:
  {{citation |author=Musician |title=Album name |publisher=Record Label}}
  So why would a primary reference with a curtesy link be less reliable:
  {{citation |author=Musician |title=Album name |url=courtesy.url |publisher=Record Label}}
  There's no need for an exception, as this is already allowed. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:26, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

  Oh, so it seems the terms of the discussion have shifted somewhat from earlier then. I'm going to strike my !vote in that case, since I'm indifferent to this as the operative question. Remsense ‥ 论 20:16, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not sure what the exact question of the RFC is, I've already pointed out that Discog isn't deprecated it's unreliable as it's UGC. Reading through the comments editors have bold voted both No and Yes while agreeing that it can be used as a courtesy link, so good luck anyone who closes it. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:26, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

• Yes. Editors should feel free to link to Discogs or eBay or Amazon or any other source normally considered unreliable in {{Cite AV media notes}}, because the reason those sources are considered unreliable have nothing to do with false/mislabeled scans, the way some publishers may be considered unusable for what would normally be considered WP:ABOUTSELF interview quotes if they have a history of manipulating them. Mach61 21:56, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

  It's incredibly lazy to cite a purely commercial vendor like eBay or Amazon--one just isn't trying very hard. I always remove those links; any information on those sites can be found through much better sources. I can only conclude that editors want to link to Discogs solely for the pretty pictures; again, citing the AV notes is enough. We don't need to link in the body of an article to a site that is full of thousands of errors and typos, even if it's just the image. If there's disagreement over something like, did Donald "Duck" Dunn play bass on track two or three of Album Example, and the AV notes are cited, then it's a matter of edit warring, and you can involve an admin. Discogs is only appropriate as an external link. All the text in this thread so far has not made the case that it's necessary--or even helpful--to cite in the body. Caro7200 (talk) 16:17, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

• Comment - Can someone explain to me how it's not a WP:USERG issue? I feel like I must be misunderstanding the situation to have so many people say "yes" so far. Sergecross73 msg me 22:29, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

  See my earlier comment, Discog isn't being cited it's being used as a courtesy link. Also my comment even earlier as to why I don't think this RFC is even necessary. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 23:18, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

  I'm inclined to agree with your comment then. Sergecross73 msg me 00:00, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

• Yes, as long as it is solely album jackets and liner notes being cited directly as primary sources. Discogs itself, as mentioned, is unreliable per WP:USERG (see its entry on RSP at WP:DISCOGS), but as long as it is the images being cited and not the user-generated text that supplements them, I don't see a problem. JeffSpaceman (talk) 11:50, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
• Needs a strong caveat, but yes for 'what is written on the record' The images faithfully reproduce the records and their covers. The sources in this case are the records themselves and their covers (the {{Cite AV media notes}} template is relevant). The images on discogs merely provide verifiability. They are often (but not always) primary sources. For what is written on the record and its cover the images are reliable. The reliability of the records/covers for external facts depends on the label/publisher/artist of the record. If we fail to include this caveat in e.g. a RSP entry, we may give the impression that every liner note or song attribution etc. can be used as a reliable source. They absolutely cannot. Cambial — foliar❧ 16:01, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

N.B.:earlier discussion was here: Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/Perennial sources# Could we talk some horse sense re Discogs? Headcount was 3-2, maybe 4-2.

N.B.:The RfD is not proposing that these photos be required to ref, just that the editor is allowed to use them if she wants to without another editor deleting them as disallowed.

• We kind of do this already a lot, we include a link to Discogs in the "External links" section, in fact we even have {{discogs release}} etc. to facilitate this. Problem is this removes the link down away from the the material being ref'd -- bit less than excellent. And if the editor doesn't include that, the reader is usually going to go to Discogs anyway if she wants to verify; it's just more work. Second, c'mon: hella editors are using Discogs to get their info anyway (I know I do) and that can't be stopped. So the current situation is kind of kabuki, and that also is sub-excellent. Herostratus (talk) 20:34, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

NB: if an editor provides a proximate link to a Discogs photo -- attached directly to a line of data-- just as a courtesy, whether as a bare URL or using a citation template, it will be indistinguishable from a ref. Other editors will see them as refs, and possibly tag them for {{better reference}}, but far more probably delete them, and perhaps the material also as being now unref'd while they're at it I believe we can count on this. (it still wouldn't be unreffed, but it might seem so to the casual editor not knowing the rule for works). And in fact since using Discogs as a ref is clearly prohibited at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, you might be in for a scolding. So I wouldn't do it.

As I said, an external link at the bottom of the article is extra work for the user and just more mediocre. Why do that. But that is currently the only use allowed by Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources.

Re "anyone can upload a photo claiming to be of the record" and "[is not necessarily] a guaranteed accurate representation of a work", that just isn't true. A photo of the label for "In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida" can't actually be a photo of the label for "Love Me Do". It's flat impossible. Of course, as anywhere in the 'pedia, we are indeed subject to be fooled by an elaborate hoax using photoshop skills. But we assume no elaborate hoaxes absent some indication of such, and to do so regularly would be kind of paranoid... And for instance photos (putatively) taken and uploaded without modification by Wikipedia editors are far likelier to to hoaxes or just wrong and for good or ill we accept those. I guess we would accept a photo of a record label taken by an editor to be shown in an article to be sufficiently reliable, why can't she upload to Discogs and use it as a ref.

Re "The primary images it hosts don't make it anymore or less unreliable. This is the same as with the primary documents that ancestry/com hosts". I did not know that birth certificates or whatever that Ancestry hosts are considered unreliable, that is a different issue -- I suppose the birth ertificates for two different Joe Smiths might be indistinguishable etc. This doesn't apply to the matter at hand.

Vetting reliable sources is tricky if you drill down. Most sources are reliable for some things, and not others. But if the Daily Unreliable were to host material that -- by some magic -- we were certain was true to 99.99% confidence, yeah we could use it I'd think. The label photos are 99.99% sure of being accurate, n'est-ce pas?

Sure our rules have to be blunt instruments ("Do not use the Daily Unreliable, period"), we can't get overly nuanced. but if it is possible to make a rule less blunt by logical proof of an reasonably broad exception, and an editor has bothered to do it, it would be mediocre to just be like "enh whatever nah". Herostratus (talk) 02:47, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

How will this RFC change this in anyway? Discog will still be an unreliable source in general, so anyone blindly following the colour applied by a script will still see the same colour. I would suggest making sure the title of the reference is something like "Courtesy link to image of the album reverse showing the song listing". If you add a bare url it may get reverted, the same happens to edits without summaries, if other editors don't know why you're doing something they might revert you in mistake. Clearly explaining goes a long way to mitigate that.

Nothing at RSP "prohibits" the use of Discog, the specific wording is The content on Discogs is user-generated, and is therefore generally unreliable. That is routine wording, all user generated content is considered generally unreliable.

It's prohibited for refs I believe. I want it usable for refs. Your quote basically makes the argument "We can't use any Discogs material for refs, because we don't use any Discogs material for refs" which is circular. Look me in the eye and tell me that you truly believe that these photos are not accurate to a sufficient level of confidence for a ref. You can't because they are. How can that not matter. Herostratus (talk) 06:36, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

It's not prohibited, and if you think my argument bis circular you have misunderstood it. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:20, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

My point about ancestry/com is that it is unreliable, but that the primary documents it hosts are considered reliable (rather than the other way round). -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:13, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

As to hoaxes Discog is as likely to be hoaxed as any other place that are user edited, Wikipedia included. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:15, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Hoaxing the Wikipedia can have ideological advantage in many places. Making a hoax record label is pointless and also requires some photoshop skill. There probably are hoaxed images on Discogs (altho their hivemind would catch lots of them eventually you'd think). However, surely it is way less than one in a thousand. A 99.9+% confidence is way more than sufficient for a ref. Herostratus (talk) 06:36, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Most of the hoaxes on Wikipedia are not ideological, see Wikipedia:List of hoaxes on Wikipedia. The main reason people create hoaxes is basic trolling. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:22, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Mnmh. Well, Wikipedia is a magnet for all kinds of hoaxes, but its very different, all of those are text hoaxes -- articles or passages. It's different. Plus Wikipedia is very visible, its the go-to place for hoaxing, Discogs is not. Plus realistic photoshopping takes a level of skill that... idk, one person in a thousand has? (Maybe not in your circle, but overall.)

Photoshopping a record label is just not the same is all. Altho... now I think of it, you could photoshop your own name as the writer or something, either for lulz or some personal advantage (impress a girl or whatever)... but even so: are more than 1 of 1000 images in Discogs altered? Remember, there are a lot of images on Discord... 1 in 1000 would mean there are hundreds of hoaxed images on Discord. Many would have been caught, and/or bragged about. I haven't heard a whisper of that. And I mean the internet has a lot info, what my neighbors dog had for breakfast is on the internet.

I mean sure anything's possible... more that 1 in 1000 Discord images being hoaxes is not literally absolutely impossible... but you'd really be going down a rabbit hole to think its realistically possible. Maybe the New York Times doesn't exist and is an elaborate hoax (have you ever been there?). Maybe all the rest of us and the whole universe is illusory and you are just a brain floating in space (in which case there would be no reliable sources I guess.) But how far down the rabbit hole do we want to go.

Nobody in this thread has made the argument that more than 1 in 1,000 Discog label images are significantly altered. It'd be an extraordinary claim, and there's not one single source, even a unreliable random blog or whatever, for that, that I know of. I think it's safe for us to dismiss that possibility. Herostratus (talk) 18:53, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

• It seems to me that Caro7200 tried to argue that Discogs is frequently misused, and that it will be (or is; I don't know what the status quo is) harder to find and purge these bad uses if there are tens of thousands of articles using Discogs links in the manner proposed here. I'm sympathetic to this argument. Is there a reason that some other website isn't an equally viable replacement? Does Discogs have the most complete collection of these or something? —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 14:58, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

So, seems to have died down a bit. So let's see.

So, my goal here was to add text to the effect that "Except that images of record labels and jackets are OK" at the Discogs entry at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources. That page is for "sources that have been repeatedly raised for discussion are listed here... it is a summarization of discussions about the listed sources" to avoid having to go over some sources over and over. Discogs is rated as "Generally Unreliable" With the circle-slash "prohibited" icon. This represent the consensus of the various previous discussions, and is mainly used for answering editors who aren't sure, but could also be used to quell pointless local discussions on the matter. And that is fine. (I was told that here rather than there is place to have this discussion).

So, let's see -- by headcount, its 7-4 in favor of "yes" (most people from the other discussion voted here, but one didn't, and was a "yes" so 8-4 Yes). As to strength of argument, well, not for me to say, but... I didn't find the "no" ones very convincing, to say the least. You can't pass off a photo of record X's label as being record Y, no matter how many people don't get that, you still can't. The photos themselves are technically user created, but I mean so is "I have the album right here, take my word for it man" and that's less reliable and the reader sometimes can't check it at all without unreasonable effort. "We can't use Discogs at all because we don't use Discogs at all" is not a strong argument; "We don't use Discogs at all and that works OK so let's keep doing that" is better, but pretty weak IMO... could be used against any change anywhere... "works OK" is arguable and "works better" is a worthwhile goal. But that's just me, and I'm biased, so make your own conclusion about strength of argument.

Anyway, for the purposes of Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, a "a summarization of discussions about the listed sources" has to include this thread, and with more weight than something from say 15 years ago. So it's most probably not true that a summarization of discussion can be said to reveal a consensus against Discogs label photos as refs, anymore. More the opposite. (If there are a number of fairly recent, well- populated, and decisive discussions that might be different -- but since label photos as a separate thing were discussed little or not at all (I'll betcha), most probably not even then.)

And the nutshell at that page does say "Consensus can change...". So...

Make sense? I will talk to the Perennial Sources people, OK? They will probably agree to the change.

But here is the thing. So far we are talking about if a fact (is there consensus) was or was not established.

But... for rules its different. At WP:USERGENERATED (part of WP:RS, which is technically just a guideline but has the weight of a strong rule) it says "Examples of unacceptable user-generated sources are... Discogs...". Well is 8-4 and (if you think so) weight of argument enough to change a rule? Mnmh... well the at WP:RS it's just one example. Removing it doesn't change any rule, at all. And dollars to donuts that the people writing that list of examples gave zero thought to Discogs label photos specifically, and we're not "originalists" bound to exact text.

So yeah I'd say changing that text (most probably just removing it, since its only listing some examples, and less confusing) would probably be appropriate.

But suppose we would have to have a discussion over at RS tho. We'll see. Herostratus (talk) 03:22, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

As someone involved in the RFC I would suggest leaving it to whoever closes the discussion.

As to UGC as I said above this would change nothing, at best it would add a sentence at RSP that links to images can be used because if other pre-existing policy considerations. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 10:35, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Much of the discussion so far at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fractional calculus of sets hinges on the reliability of the academic journals used as the article's source material. For that reason it might be of interest to editors on this noticeboard. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:14, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Well while editing about Indian history can I use NCERT textbooks as a reliable source? Edasf (talk) 04:42, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Probably. Text books are generally considered reliable, but more academic sources are preferred for historical details. Context is often important, especially given the controversy over some of the NCERT content. Knowing what content is being supported by the text book, and the details of the text book would be helpful. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:33, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

There is a wide variety of content present in NCERT textbooks - some are well-respected, some less so. A lot depends on what you're using it for, and also on the availability of other sources on the subject. Vanamonde93 (talk) 22:38, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Probably not, per WP:WPNOTRS. NCERT is a tertiary source, and the exeptions do not seem to apply to it. PadFoot (talk) 08:07, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

@PadFoot2008 There are no indications there that a tertiary source is default unreliable unless "exceptions" apply. That section is talking about Wikipedia itself. What are you referring to? PARAKANYAA (talk) 05:34, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Per RS, Wikipedia articles should be based mainly on reliable secondary sources. For tertiary sources, it says

Reputable tertiary sources, such as introductory-level university textbooks, almanacs, and encyclopedias, may be cited.

NCERT is not a university textbook. PadFoot (talk) 05:45, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

@PadFoot2008 ''such as''. The question is whether it is reputable, which is what we are here for. PARAKANYAA (talk) 05:51, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I have doubts as to whether we should be using children's textbooks for writing historical articles on Wikipedia. PadFoot (talk) 06:05, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

@PadFoot2008 Those are reviewed by historians like latest of NCERT was reviewed by historians like, Romila Thapar and Upinder Singh.So might be reliable. Edasf (talk) 06:36, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't dispute that I just disagreed with how you answered it before. PARAKANYAA (talk) 10:40, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

In the past, Inside the Magic was a website that mainly discussed Disney theme parks. It even had a reputable podcast that lasted until 2014. However, in more recent years, the website has become more click-baity. The r/Disney Subreddit has banned the website on December 18, 2023 due to its "'Unreliability', 'Vague, intentionally misleading, or patently false clickbait titles', 'Unsourced rumors/ flat out making up stories for clicks', 'Misinformation', and 'Other drama'". I want to highlight this source because it has been used in a lot of Wikipedia articles - and yet the site [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_229#Inside_the_Magic was last discussed here in 2017 and September 2024.

For example, the website spread the rumor that Rachel Zegler was dropped out of the upcoming Snow White film. It was discussed in the Snow White Talk Page Archive. The website also spread the rumor that Disney+ would be shut down, as discussed in the Disney+ Talk Page Archive. Finally, the site was also brought up in several talk pages, including for Strange World (archive), as well as the Political Views of J.K. Rowling Talk Page as "not rated in terms of reliability".

Thus, I feel confident to depricate "Inside the Magic" as a source, especially articles published within the last couple of years. One more thing, have another clickbaity article: She-Hulk Recast for Marvel’s New Avengers Project After Season 2 Canceled. As it turns out, it was for LEGO Marvel Avengers: Mission Demolition, where ALL of the Marvel cast are "recast". This includes John Stamos as Iron Man instead of Robert Downey Jr. Yoshiman6464 ^♫🥚 16:40, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Just to note that both project Film/Marvel Cinematic Universe task force and project Amusement Parks already class this as unreliable.

I don't know if it's necessary to deprecate it, and the opinions of Reddit users hold no weight, but its obviously unreliable. Past discussions have got hung up in whether this is a blog, it's not, but I don't think it's an important issue. The fact they behave like a clickbait farm, and have a very poor reputation for fact checking or accuracy, is enough to say they're unreliable. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:14, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

A source does not have to be listed at WP:RSP to be reliable or unreliable. RSP is not meant to be a comprehensive listing of sources even though some editors are treating it as such. If virtually everyone can tell a source is unreliable, it does not need an RSP listing. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 17:25, 5 November 2024 (UTC)