The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Broadly, Keep !voters fall into one of two camps: (1) the other side in this ethnic/territorial dispute get their flag, so we should too, and (2) meatpuppets. Thanks to Melikov Memmed and Saygi1 for putting some considered effort and thought into their replies, but none of these comments addressed the arguments to delete, which are grounded in policy and have a clear consensus behind them. causa sui (talk) 16:55, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Flag of South Azerbaijan

Flag of South Azerbaijan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

per WP:Partisanship, WP:RS, and WP:OR. Aliwiki (talk) 11:25, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete. For the reason given above.--Aliwiki (talk) 11:44, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. "South Azerbaijan" itself is an irredentist fringe theory, basically a fantasy concept. No state of official entity by that name exists or has ever existed. Such Wikipedia articles should deal with real states or former states, not fantasies and myths. Therefore, this article is basically a product of nationalist WP:SOAPing, which cites a bunch of blogs, and unreliable non-academic sources, violating WP:RS and WP:OR. Notable Azeri scholar Shireen T. Hunter, of Georgetown University, address this issue in "Iran and Transcuacsia in the Post-Soviet Era", writing in page 106 that "After the Ottoman empire had collapsed, both the Communists and, later, the Azerbaijani nationalists developed the myth of one Azerbaijan divided into a southern and northern part, comparing it to what happened to the two Germanics and to Korea, and using this myth to justify irredentist claims toward Iranian territory.". Kurdo777 (talk) 12:53, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Azerbaijan-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:08, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Iran-related deletion discussions. Takabeg (talk) 06:46, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Delete":Wikipedia is not a place for advertizing (WP:NOTADVERTISING). Just look at the following gallery:
  • name of the file :Which flag is the flag of South Azerbaijan (?!)
    name of the file :Which flag is the flag of South Azerbaijan (?!)
  • name of the file :South Azerbaijan red flag
    name of the file :South Azerbaijan red flag
  • name of the file :Flag of South Azerbaijan
    name of the file :Flag of South Azerbaijan

Are we spending our time here to find out something that no two people agree about it ? "South Azerbaijan" itself is an unknown entity , then the flag of that strange creature is more unknown than that !! --Alborz Fallah (talk) 16:48, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is not a real Kurdistan too, why don't you suggest to deletion of Kurdistan's flag?--Orartu (talk) 15:44, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

P.S : Again , for showing that all so-called flags are inventions of a handful of our editors in Wikipedia , try this : (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
No news , No book , No Scholar source and No free image out of our Wikipedia !
Hallelujah , we made a flag ! --Alborz Fallah (talk) 17:04, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment 1:(UNPO) , Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization , has nothing to do with UN (United Nations) . That is an organization that every person who pays the membership can be a member . About your other explanation , (Az.Republic in north and modern Iranian Azerbaijan in South ) , that would be correct if you write it as "Modern Az.Republic (representing historical Arran and Shirvan ) and historical Azerbaijan" .--Alborz Fallah (talk) 09:46, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment 2 In support of this flag to be self-made and baseless , I searched the history of the file in Wikimedia Commons , the uploading editor has no other edit but only this few flags of Turkic language groups in every country that they live , and the uploading person find out to be a Page that is :test, spamming , vandalism or bot created page . This shows the file is baseless . Besides that , the interesting point is that the user:Melikov Memmed , here has changed the source of the picture that user:Tarkan uploaded ! I want to ask is it possible to change the source of a file that someone else had uploaded ? Or is it a change to deceive the readers about this file having a source ?--Alborz Fallah (talk) 06:27, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
@Melikov Memmed; It's better that you have a look to the links you've posted. The source of the flag in crwflags.com is Gamoh. The question here is that who has given the guardianship of Iranian Azerbaijan to this organization?! UNPO has nothing to do with UN; and here is Wikipedia, not UN to register your country. Moreover, we can extract error from line by line of the UNPO article. As an example, line 1 consider Iranian Azerbaijan as occupied territory which is in contrast to the international descriptions ([4]), and there is no other recognized international organization which has ever made such funny claim about Iranian Azerbaijan. As a conclusion, there is no reliable source to consider those flags for Iranian Azerbaijan, and anything exists is just self-made materials.--Aliwiki (talk) 12:05, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
For you there is no such land by the name of South Azerbaijan but Google search finds 461000 results.--Melikov Memmed (talk) 09:34, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Pure Fallacy: This statement has taken the naivety of groundless justification to extreme. This is Wikipedia, not a playground for expression of unlogical comments to support baseless material. As a matter of fact, there are more search results in Google for other mythical entities such as ‘Jersey Devil’, ‘Bigfoot’ or ‘Lochness Monster’, etc. than for South Azerbaijan. Even so, the number of Google search results cannot be used as reason for justifying the reality of the subject in search. Cyrusace (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:41, 10 October 2011 (UTC).[reply]

Orartu (talk) 10:59, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We don't discuss whether flags are dangerous or not :))) Takabeg (talk) 13:47, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There is not a real Kurdistan too, why don't you suggest to deletion of Kurdistan's flag?--Orartu (talk) 15:44, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Define "real", please. The existance of a region is not at stake here. Existiance of the flag is. Kurdistan's flag is verifiable as existing. This beastie is not. - The Bushranger One ping only 06:08, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep See Mahmoud Ahmadinejad under South Azerbaijan Flag, no one is imagining anything, this is a real yet unofficial flag. There is a serious debate going on in south Azerbaijani community. Article may be weak, but it'll be improved, there is no need for deletion. --Khutuck (talk) 11:06, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't know that picture of a president and a flag is so important . Then what if I build a page about the new flag of Az republic that the colors are up side down comparing the previous colors ?--Alborz Fallah (talk) 12:47, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The picture you linked shows current Azerbaijan flag, and irrelevant to our iscussion. Do not be absurd and try this: Take an Azerbaijan flag, turn its back, take it upside down. It looks like the one you have linked, intead of Blue-Red-Green, it'll look like Green-Red-Blue, but it is the same flag. here is an example.Khutuck (talk) 13:34, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yap , that is a good answer , I think the European union said the same thing : turn it around!: Avropa :ÜZR İSTƏMƏZ
The flag in that picture is not of South Azerbaijan, but the reverse of the flag of the Republic of Azerbaijan. Takabeg (talk) 13:46, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
@User:Khutuck, that's a reverse image of the flag of Republic of Azerbaijan, look at the flag right above it, it's the reverse flag of Singapore. For some reason, some of the flags in that section of the image, are reversed. Kurdo777 (talk) 21:27, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I did a quick search, and found multiple videos of this oversize South Azerbaijan flag being used during demonstrations in Iran/South Azerbaijan [10], [11] and [12], as well as here during an event and film screening abroad [13]. So it doesn't look like a "fantasy concept" when used in the open on the very territory of Iran by the very people from Iran that proclaimed this flag. If we delete this flag, then we need to delete flags and articles about all self-proclaimed entities. Let's be consistent. --Saygi1 (talk) 00:22, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Please read WP:RS before making such comments. Youtube is not considered as reliable source. The links you posted don't prove anything. Anyone can upload such videos.--Aliwiki (talk) 13:25, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Please note that while YouTube video's are in general acceptable for Wikipedia articles as evidence, in this case I have provided YouTube videos as evidence not in an article, but in a discussion, in a talk page. Therefore, your point does not apply. More importantly, it's a legitimate source that shows the flag of South Azerbaijan in action in Iran and abroad. That's enough evidence to prove that the article about, and the flag of South Azerbaijan, deserve to stay. --Saygi1 (talk) 23:30, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Flag of South Azerbaijan" -Llc 0

"Flags of South Azerbaijan" -Llc 0

"Flag of Southern Azerbaijan" -Llc 0

"Flags of Southern Azerbaijan" -Llc 0

But it's obvious that there are flags of Azeris in Iran. (See: p. 1766). But these flags are not commonly accepted as a "Flag of South Azerbaijan" by Iranian Azerbaijanis. The title such as "Flag(s) of South Azerbaijan", "Flag(s) of Southern Azerbaijan" are not acceptable. We can change the title. For exampel, (List of) Azerbaijani flags in Iran, (list of) Flags used by Azerbaijani nationalist in Iran etc... And we have to prove that these flags are proposed as the common flag of "Iranian Azerbaijan", "Azerbaijanis in Iran" etc. with reliable sources. If these flags are nothing but flags of organizations, we have to remove them from list. I think that we can add flags of Azadistan, Azerbaijan People's Government etc. Takabeg (talk) 08:32, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Thank you for your comment . There is no doubt that there are many organizations and groups that perhaps most of them have flags . If that organizations are noticeable enough , each of them can have an article in Wikipedia . But the problem is when so many organizations are so non important that no separate Wikipedia article is dedicated solely to them , that is wrong to represent a list of them in an article under the title Flags used by Azerbaijani nationalists in Iran . Only one group has an article in Wikipedia , and it can represent it's flag in the article of it's own , but that flag can't be represented as the "flag of Iranian Azerbaijan (or so called South Azerbaijan)" . According to WP:NRVE , Notability requires verifiable evidence : where is the evidence that shows this flag is more notable than the other flags , and all the other flags are notable enough to be represented in a Wikipedia article . This photo or that photo showing a group of people with a flag can't be viewed as a reliable source : who are the people in the photo ? Is it verifiable that isn't it a photo shop picture ? Are the mass of people in the picture agree with a person with a flag in his hand ? and many questions like this ...--Alborz Fallah (talk) 09:38, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment What about WP:NPOV and WP:CIVIL? What does 'no' mean? Please give an description of 'no' and admins please be careful! WP:CANVASSING is similar with WP:NPOV and WP:CIVIL. --88.226.213.234 (talk) 12:01, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
South Azerbaijan is a fringe theory. Moreover, there is no reliable source for the flag. The article is original research based on non-reliable and self-made materials.Shahin (talk) 16:31, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: that's the point, as an encyclopedia, it needs to be consistent. If flags of other non-states are accepted in Wikipedia, then certainly so should this one, as it's actively used by South Azerbaijanis wherever they live. --Saygi1 (talk) 23:30, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The James Mihanan source also mentions Talyshistan and Lezginistan flags. I will be starting a new arbcomm or looking forward to setup a new committe of expert admins in Wikipedia given the massive voting above. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 08:10, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We can find reliable sources for "Flag of Kurdistan". But we cannot find it for "Flag of South Azerbaijan", "Flag of Southern Azerbaijan". I think this is reason why this article is being repeatedly nominated for deletion. Takabeg (talk) 01:01, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There is a sufficiently reliable source. Moreover, there was a de facto Azerbaijani state 66 years ago on this territory, called Azerbaijan People's Government, which merits the article on the flag.Atabəy (talk) 01:05, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
UNPO is not a UN. It is a paid membership organization with no relaibility. The flag of the Pishevari government is very a different flag than the one on this page, and it is mentioned in its own article. There is no reliable source that the mentioned flag on the page is the "Flag of South Azerbaijan" --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 12:33, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If this article deals with only the flag of the Southern Azerbaijan National Awakening Movement, we'd better merge this article into Southern Azerbaijan National Awakening Movement. Takabeg (talk) 06:24, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Again thank you for your comment , but doesn't that article already has an image ? And what does this article have other than contents of that one to be merged with ? The only purpose of this article is to give WP:WEIGHT to the idea that the separatist movement in Iranian Azerbaijan is so popular and it is not an imaginary concept , but the whole article is nothing than a title plus an image at all . The creating editor only wants the recognition at all : no information about the time of adoption , the real sizes , colors , adopting groups and like so is written on the article and it will never be written there , because whole story is a creative art of a few editors in Wikipedia plus a handful of person in a closed unknown room in unknown place !--Alborz Fallah (talk) 10:45, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. The Kurdish flag is similar as it too has no state nor citizens but if that flag is allowed then so should this Azerbaijani flag. There must be consistency and no double standards. Neftchi (talk) 09:22, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Not Encyclopedic. Arguments like "X is on Wikipedia, so must be Y" or "X people have the same right as Y people" ,... are not acceptable. "Scholarly reference" on the topic is non-existent. Wikipedia should not become what I term as "official back-up of teenager pseudo-intellectual fights on Facebook, YouTube, Forums, ...". Xashaiar (talk) 10:35, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: that's the point, as an encyclopedia, it needs to be consistent. If flags of other non-states are accepted in Wikipedia, then certainly so should this one, as it's actively used by South Azerbaijanis wherever they live. --Saygi1 (talk) 23:30, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's obvious that there is a flag named as “Flag of Southern Azerbaijan” but the opponents think that the title is not acceptable, because it not accepted as the flag of whole South Azerbaijan. I think that this is not a reason to delete the article, because even official Flag of Azerbaijan is not accepted as the flag of whole Azerbaijan, Tabriz is the capital of East Azerbaijan, but there the Flag of Azerbaijan is not accepted, because the flag of Azerbaijan means the flag of Azerbaijan Republic. And “Flag of Southern Azerbaijan” means an unofficial flag of unrecognised territory named as Southern Azerbaijan recognized by the UNPO. Here there is no politic grounds, this is a fact. --Melikov Memmed (talk) 12:36, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Again, UNPO is a paid membership organizaiton and is not reliable organization. Even the flag of Pishevari was different than the one you mentioned. What are your reliable sources that mention this as "Flag of South Azerbaijan". UNPO is not UN and not WP:RS. Please provide your reliable sources. Also there is no "South Azerbaijan" in terms of mono-ethnic concept, as West Azerbaijan has a large Kurdish population, the name Azerbaijan is not an ethnic name (it is a historica Persian name), there are also Assyrians, Armenians, and Tats/Talysh and other people living in East and West Azerbaijan. Did they agree on that flag? So if your only source is UNPO then the articles title at most can be "Flag of South Azerbaijan according to UNPO". But the reliability of UNPO is extremly questionable. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 12:51, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Your argument doesnt make sense, does every Iranian citizen agree with the Iran's new Islamic flag? Very doubtful and yet there it is. If this flag isnt allowed then the Kurdish flag should also be removed for the same reason. Why this double standard against ethnic Azerbaijanis? Neftchi (talk) 16:52, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia works with WP:RS. Where is your WP:RS source that this is the flag of "Southern Azerbaijan". UNPO is not an RS source. So I asked you again to provide [[WP:RS}] source. The Kurdistan flag has tons of WP:RS source. The flag in this page, does not. Also mind WP:SOAPBOX and WP:FORUM. Provide WP:RS sources (not UNPO or a website or two) which mentions such flag. For Kurdistan flag, one can find easily dozens of RS sources. If you think you cannot find dozen of RS sources for Kurdistan flag, then nominate it for deletion. The flag in this article has as much as hits as the Lezgin and Talyshistan flag. That is not enough for Wikipedia to make an article about it. It is simply a flag of Southern Azerbaijan National Awakening Movement. We must follow WP:RS, not nationalistic arguments. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 17:24, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Please also see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:55, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and all of it's controversies are for when there is analogy between two article , but the nature of Iraqi Kurdistan and it's place in the new Iraqi constitution is very different with this case . Anyway the proposed flag of Iranian Kurdistan in UNPO is a different one with Iraqi Kurdistan : that is different with the flag that has an article and this one has no article at all !--Alborz Fallah (talk) 10:27, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Note to closing admin, as one user mentioned please see the canvassing from another wikipedia here: [15]) --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 19:07, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The flag exists as per available reliable sources already mentioned on this page.Ladytimide (talk) 19:33, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that you haven't follow the discussion. Which reliable source? Can you show us? --Aliwiki (talk) 21:19, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note to closing admin: User:Ladytimide was most likely brought here through WP:CANVASSING, either off-wiki, or based on the public request for keep votes on the Azerbaijani Wikipedia. It should be noted that this user has no prior history on deletion discussions, and had been inactive from Sep 27th until the the day this AfD was created. Kurdo777 (talk) 22:30, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia works with WP:RS. Do you think that Ethnologue is a reliable source? Can you find RS sources for North Azerbaijani language, South Azerbaijani language. A flag of organization is called as "Flag of South Azerbaijan", but what is South Azerbaijani language? --Melikov Memmed (talk) 06:19, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Your argument doesn't make any sense. Read WP:Synthesis and don't synthesis things by yourself. Language and flag are two different things. Languages don't have flags. --Aliwiki (talk) 11:35, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I wanted to say that if Wikipedia works with WP:RS, how without a reliable source here it is created "new language". Double standard for "South Azerbaijani language" and "Flag of South Azerbaijan"? --Melikov Memmed (talk) 12:04, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Why don't you discuss your point of view about Azeri language in corresponding page ? By mentioning it here , the brief logic of your comment is "When article A is using the source that I think is wrong , then the article B should contain the information that have wrong source ( and /or ) no source at all !! --Alborz Fallah (talk) 12:32, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Before me here it is discussed about South Azerbaijan, Talyshistan, Lezgistan, Flag of Talyshistan, Flag of Lezgistan, so and I discussed my point of view about "South Azerbaijani language". Why you don’t think that those are wrong, too? Double standard?--Melikov Memmed (talk) 13:01, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
At least comparing a flag with invention of a flag . But a language with a flag ....--Alborz Fallah (talk) 13:26, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
To Melikov, I do not see yet a flag of Talyshistan and Lezginistan article. The other discussions you made are irrelavant as you can talk about lack of RS in other articles. Please provide WP:RS references that the flag in this page is the flag of "South Azerbaijan". UNPO is not UN, nor RS,..it is a paid membership organization. So the article's title should be "Flag of Sanam".. but it can just be merged with SANAM [16]. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 14:51, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe you do not see yet a flag of Talyshistan, but the article about Talysh-Mughan Autonomous Republic with the flag of Talysh-Mughan Autonomous Republic had created from February 2006, though during its short life there was no flag, flags were drawn later only for propaganda. You do not see yet a flag of Lezginistan because there is such flag. I know that UNPO is not UN. At article it is clearly, that UNPO is an international organization of stateless nation, at the UNPO, Southern Azerbaijan is represented by SANAM and a flag representing South Azerbaijan was also recognized by the UNPO. I don’t cite UNPO as RS, it is quite normal that citing UNPO here we had affirmed who is the member of UNPO. When citing UNPO I will affirm that Tabriz is capital of Southern Azerbaijan, then you can raise an objection that UNPO is not RS. I think that at the article there is not political grounds, the article is weak, but there is no need for deletion, except nationalistic views and I hope that admin will take it into account.--Melikov Memmed (talk) 04:58, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Again that has nothing to do with this article. If you think the flag in Talysh-Mughan Autonomous Republic is not valid, go discuss it in that article! What does it have to do with this article? UNPO is a paid membership organization. It has no WP:RS reliability in Wikipedia and has been discussed before. What you failed to bring is WP:RS] sources that this is a flag of "South Azerbaijan". It does not equate with the Kurdish case, because there are many WP:RS sources with the flag of Kurdistan. If you do not agree with this fact, then also go discuss it in the flag of Kurdistan wikipedia page. The flag in this page is the flag of SANAM and a member of UNPO. But you needs multiple WP:RS sources (like the flag of Kurdistan) to even establish such an article in Wikipedia. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 11:41, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
you seem to switch your position after what user Melikov Memmed said - your previous threat about Talyshistan, etc., was not a reasonable argument. --Saygi1 (talk) 23:30, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete for this edition per Wikipedia:Verifiability & Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a soapbox or means of promotion. Takabeg (talk) 07:28, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  1. Delete. Pure advertising--Penom (talk) 15:37, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Please elaborate how's that? Multiple videos and printed materials show that it's as real as any flag, and is used actively even today, even in Iran, as well as abroad. --Saygi1 (talk) 23:30, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
@ Saygi; Videos and self-made materials don't prove anything. Formation of a country is the job of UN, not Youtube or weblogs.--Aliwiki (talk) 22:17, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per Khodabandeh14.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 16:35, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: that's not really a position. Per Khodabandeh14 you mean he asked you to come and vote here? --Saygi1 (talk) 23:30, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
User Saygi1, the interpretation of other users' comment is not your job. His answer is clear. If no, have a look to above and see similar comments of your friends who voted keep per user ...'. --Aliwiki (talk) 22:17, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Allikas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Flag_of_South_Azerbaijan
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