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Hello Naraht and Encoded I was wondering if you would be interested in helping with a simpler edit request to update the Introduction? My proposed introduction does the following:

• Rewrites the first paragraph to focus on TRACS's location and recognition by the United States Department of Education and the Council for Higher Education Accreditation.

• The second paragraph includes the types of accreditation TRACS offers and the locations of schools its accredits. It also streamlines mention of HBCUs, removing the phrasing "significant accreditor" from the Introduction.

• The rest of my proposed introduction clarifies TRACS's faith-based requirements for schools.

Here is my proposed version:

Let me know what you think, I would love to collaborate again on this section.

Thanks! Andy at TRACS (talk) 15:16, 22 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Andy at TRACS! Before I start I just want to say that it is incredibly refreshing to engage with someone from an organisation who is effectively contributing to their Wikipedia page while complying with our COI policies, and you have my utmost respect for that.

With regards to your edit request, while I am not going to decline it right now given the lack of discussion about it, as it stands right now it is almost certainly not going to be accepted by anyone.

The most obvious issue is the lack of sourcing. Of course, as I read the article, I understand there to be sources already in the article which would support it, but for an editor reviewing and implementing an edit request, I know I would rather see sources already included rather than having to figure that out myself.

Another issue I would have would be that some of the information, specifically the final sentence, isn't what I would expect to find in an introduction. Also, changing the "TRACS is a significant accreditor of historically black colleges [...]" sentence to "TRACS serves as a link to Title III funding for Historically Black Colleges and Universities" sets off the promotional alarm bells for me.

Those are the main issues I see, but there are some subtle things which I would do differently, though those are things that can be easily ironed out without much fuss. Of course, I'm just one person, so others may have different opinions. As above _{so below} 09:51, 7 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Dear @As above,

Thanks a bunch for your thoughts! I really value them, and I appreciate the kind words about the COI.

As I continue to explore ways to contribute positively to our article, I appreciate your advice. Would it be alright if I reused some of the sources from the article to back up the requests in the introduction? Could I do that in my initial request? (update rather than post a new request?)

Additionally, I would like to clarify the reason behind the change to the “Significant accreditor of HBCUs” sentence. We accredit more than 100 schools, and there are 108 HBCUs; we only accredit 7 of them.  Would “… and other countries, including several Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs)” be better? The links that were used to support the current sentence show that our significance is linked to Title III funding for these schools. But we have no problems dropping that entire sentence. I appreciate you catching this; we didn’t want it to sound like a sales pitch, but rather a more accurate picture since less than 7% of our schools are HBCUs.

I look forward to working with you and hopefully adjusting it to be acceptable. Andy at TRACS (talk) 14:02, 8 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia has no page on creationist science but it does have this. Does it accurately describe what your organization requires?

Creation science is a pseudoscientific form of Young Earth creationism

Julian in LA (talk) 23:39, 13 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest replacing the final sentence in the introduction with this:

Accreditation is limited to institutions whose curriculums include creationism and "creationist science" and which have a statement of faith that firms "the inerrancy and historicity of the Bible" and "the divine work of non-evolutionary creation including persons in God's image".

I hesitate to put "creationist science" in quotation marks, but I don't know what it is. Is there a source that explains the difference between creationism and creationist science?

The second to last sentence in the existing introduction says that almost all of its accredited schools are in the US. The proposed change says "and other countries." Is this an update? How many foreign accreditations have been issued? Julian in LA (talk) 05:13, 11 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

As a note, the word science occurs only once on TRACS's website. (as part of a CV of an officer). I don't know what information indicates the degree to which TRACS requires a curriculum that meets the concept of Creation Science. For example, is having a geology class at the school which indicates that the earth did not exist a month after the creation of the Universe enough to get a school's accreditation revoked (or not granted in the first place). All I see is that the institution's Faith Statement should identify it as part of the Evangelical protestant tradition in higher education.Naraht (talk) 05:32, 14 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally, (shower thought this morning). Some of TRACS's accreditees are Seminaries, which may not teach any classes in Science, whether Secular, Creation Science or Intelligent Design. So indicating that the Curriculum requires "creationist science" would be problematic.Naraht (talk) 12:24, 14 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Naraht, You are fully correct in your observation and assessment:

1) We do require institutions faith statements to identify as part of the Evangelical Protestant tradition.

2) We do not require our institutions to teach or hold any particular view on creationism, we have a wide variety of opinions among our schools. In fact, most notable proponents of Creation Science are educated in the public university system, not TRACS schools.

Julian in LA, As indicated by Narath, I can confirm that TRACS does not require Creationist Science from the institutions.

I would like to confirm the other item you mentioned regarding international schools. Yes, my purpose is to update our article and provide correct information. TRACS has six institutions and 18 remote instructional sites located outside the United States. All TRACS institutions are required to operate under the TRACS standards as approved by the US Department of Education.

I hope this helps. If anything needs to be clarified, or if I can provide any additional information to process this request, please let me know! Andy at TRACS (talk) 15:13, 14 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Curiousity, and not related to improving the page, who would you say are the most notable proponents?

Additionally, to link to another discussion, given that as far as I can tell, relative to SACSCOC, TRACS has both a smaller number of HBCUs and a smaller percentage among its institutions. Percentagewise it *may* be ahead of the other five CHEA regions, but in terms of raw numbers, I'm fairly sure it is behind both the HLC & MSCHE. I'd support something close to the two refs being in the article, but I'm very opposed to it being in the lead. (Also, the lead should avoid having refs and largely only include a synopsis of information elsewhere in the article.)Naraht (talk) 17:43, 14 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Also, what changed in 2018?Naraht (talk) 12:10, 15 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest the following for the introductory paragraph. It omits things that belong in the history section, such as the year they were first recognized by the Department of Education, and things that aren't really relevant, such as the total number of institutions accredited. I added things that would be of interest to someone browsing casually, such as the required faith statement and their connection to Liberty University and Bob Jones University. The earlier reference to HBCUs implied that no one else would accredit them for racial reasons. That's not true. Comments?

The Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools (TRACS) is an institutional accreditation organization based in Forest, Virginia. To receive accreditation, a school must have a "faith statement" identifying it as "part of the evangelical protestant tradition in higher education."[28] Of the schools it has accredited, the best-known are Liberty University (1984-2008) and Bob Jones University (2021-present) [1]. It is also known for accrediting Historically Black Colleges and Universities that have lost their regional accreditation because of shaky finances.[7]

Julian in LA (talk) 20:57, 17 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much, Julian in LA. I agree this would be an improvement. However, I would like to request two changes. The first one is a sentence that is omitted in your suggestion: The missing sentence is: "TRACS is recognized by the United States Department of Education and the Council for Higher Education Accreditation." This is factual, important, and fitting for the introduction section, as it shows our recognition and validity as an accreditation agency.

The second item is minor and is the last sentence in your suggestion. "It is also known for accrediting Historically Black Colleges and Universities that have lost their regional accreditation because of shaky finances.[7]"

How does this sound: "It is also known for accrediting Historically Black Colleges and Universities,some of which have lost their regional accreditation because of financial issues.[7]"

I don't think 'shaky finances' sounds professional, and 'financial issues' communicates the same. Additionally, from our HBCU's, only a minority lost their regional accreditation before applying to TRACS accreditation, hence the "some of which" clarification.

I really appreciate your input, and I hope you could consider my two minor edits. Thank you for your time and effort in improving the TRACS article! Andy at TRACS (talk) 13:45, 18 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I support "financial issues". And oddly "known for" is probably more accurate, since while the "rescue" of HBCUs represents a small portion of those colleges accredited, I think it represents a higher percentage of the media coverage. Can we have a restatement of the request with those changes. Naraht (talk) 14:03, 18 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Here is the updated version:

The Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools (TRACS) is an institutional accreditation organization based in Forest, Virginia. TRACS has been continuously recognized by the United States Department of Education since 1991 and the Council for Higher Education Accreditation since 2001. To receive accreditation, a school must have a "faith statement" identifying it as "part of the evangelical protestant tradition in higher education."[28] Of the schools it has accredited, the best-known are Liberty University (1984-2008) and Bob Jones University (2021-present) It is also known for accrediting Historically Black Colleges and Universities that have lost their regional accreditation because of financial issues.[7]

Andy at TRACS (talk) 14:16, 18 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'm good with it, presuming no objections from Julian in LA. If Julian is OK with it, or if no comment by 8/21, I'll make the change.Naraht (talk) 17:01, 18 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. Be sure to put a comma before "It is also known." Julian in LA (talk) 18:07, 18 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Also, what about the double brackets around Bob Jones University and Liberty University. Did you remove those intentionally? Julian in LA (talk) 18:08, 18 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be a semicolon before the "It is also known", since both could stand as independent sentences. And the lede should generally reduce the number of links in it, as long as the schools are linked elsewhere in the article, it should be OK.Naraht (talk) 18:39, 18 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Bob Jones and Liberty should be mentioned somewhere in the article in order for them to mentioned in the Lede. A notable list of schools even if not complete should be somewhere below.Naraht (talk) 18:41, 18 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I can provide a list of notable schools either here, or as a separate request, whatever works best for you. Andy at TRACS (talk) 18:44, 18 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Pensacola Christian College https://www.pcci.edu/academics/accreditation.aspx

College of the Ozarks https://www.cofo.edu/About/Accolades-Accreditation

Luther Rice College & Seminary https://www.lutherrice.edu/about-us/accreditation

Carolina University https://carolinau.edu/about/accreditation

Free Lutheran Bible College & Seminary https://flbc.edu/accreditation/ Andy at TRACS (talk) 18:57, 18 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This list will make the article boring. I mentioned Liberty and Bob Jones only because I have heard of them from newspaper articles. One was described as banning interracial dating (I think they later changed that). Liberty University was where Ted Cruz announced that he was running for president. All the students were required to attend. These others are much less famous. Julian in LA (talk) 19:01, 18 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Added a limited list of schools with the strong comment that secondary sources are needed. No negative to TRACS intended, just that a complete list doesn't belong. (Not even a complete list of those with wikipedia pages) Put in Bob Jones and Liberty with Citation Needed (from secondary sources), but I'm pretty sure those are easy. I think we are close, and while it will probably make sense to do an edit COI for other sections, this is the longest running edit-COI currently on wikipedia. Again, no insult intended to Andy@.Naraht (talk) 13:46, 19 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I reviewed this because it's been open since February and needs to be closed. One of the purposes of COE review is to prevent articles from looking like sales brochures. A long list of customers (I mean, accreditees) is something that belongs in a sales brochure. Get this finished and close it. Julian in LA (talk) 18:13, 19 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely. Desperately trying to keep the list short. But a few should be mentioned and given the section I created, let's pull the trigger.Naraht (talk) 18:21, 19 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Replaced. Not sure what references are wanted leads should generally have fewer. I'm marking this closed, we can fix any sharp edges later.Naraht (talk) 18:28, 19 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I replaced the unresolved citations with an expanded History section. I included things that happened before, or after, they were accredited by TRACS because it is part of the public perception of Liberty University and Bob Jones University. It's interesting that some of the sources claim that Bob Jones University was accredited much later than the TRACS website says. Julian in LA (talk) 22:10, 24 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Julian in LA, for your efforts in filling in this open item. You’re absolutely right that the items you’ve included primarily pertain to events that occurred before or after TRACS Accreditation. Consequently, none of them fall within the purview of TRACS’ review, policies, perspectives, and standards for accreditation. Also, Institutional political activities are outside the scope of accreditation in the US Department of Education Criteria for Recognition of accrediting agencies. TRACS accredits over 100 institutions, more than 40 of which are Minority Serving Institutions (MSI), including 7 HBCUs.  

The Southern Association of Colleges and Schools Commission on Colleges (SACSCOC) is the primary accreditor of both Liberty University (LU) and Bob Jones University (BJU); TRACS is their secondary accreditor. (Liberty University Accreditation Details: https://ope.ed.gov/dapip/#/institution-profile/147703 & Bob Jones University Accreditation Details: https://ope.ed.gov/dapip/#/institution-profile/183442)  Both LU and BJU are also accredited by additional accrediting agencies (e.g., nursing, engineering, education, etc.).  As previously mentioned, all these items related to racism and the Politically Committed Schools occurred outside the terms of TRACS accreditation, but not outside SACS-COC’s accreditation.

To maintain a balanced perspective on the Politically Committed Schools, it’s important to note that TRACS accredits schools with opposing political views. I believe schools like Paul Quinn College, Bennett College, and Clinton College should also be included in this list, as they have had prominent speakers with opposing political views, and these schools should definitely and equally fall under politically committed schools.

Since this article focuses on TRACS rather than its individual schools, I believe it’s more appropriate to avoid discussing Bob Jones University’s actions up until the year 2000, as they achieved Candidate status from TRACS in 2005. Also, the items from LU that happened after their Accreditation by TRACS are not a reflection of anything that relates to the topic of this article.

Lastly, I wanted to note that under the HBCU’s listing, Paul Quinn College has “Tracs,” where everywhere else, it is all capitalized: “TRACS.” Andy at TRACS (talk) 00:44, 26 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments.

As for primary and secondary accreditation, I'm curious as to why a school would want two accreditations. Does TRACS have cachet that a regional accreditor does not? It would be helpful if you can direct me to a source that explains this, as well as the meaning of "primary and secondary accreditation".

As for the statement that TRACS accredits more than 40 Minority Serving Institutions including 7 HBCUs, it would be helpful to have a source other than the TRACS website explaining that. According to the Wikipedia article, MSIs are just like any other school except that they receive extra federal funding. Do they have the same financial barriers to accreditation as the HBCUs already listed? Perhaps I could include an MSI in the list currently in the article.

Anyone looking at the page would wonder what the "Christian" in the organization's name means. To many people, and especially to Bob Jones III, it is a code word that excludes Catholics and Mormons but includes conservative politicians and racists. For your organization, it also includes Black Protestants, and the article makes that clear. For Bob Jones and Liberty, the fact that they sought TRACS accreditation at some point is just important as the fact that it was granted.

As for political involvement, all colleges invite political speakers and give their students the option to attend. For Bennett College, for example, their article mentions Bill Clinton and Bob Dole, who were from opposing parties. Liberty University and Bob Jones are different. Bob Jones has hosted a long series of conservative Republicans, but no Democrats seem to have been mentioned. Liberty University has invited active campaigners to give the commencement address and was criticized in the national press for providing a captive audience for Ted Cruz. When I have time, I can search for the article making that accusation.

While many of these things happened outside their accreditation period, an informed person reading the article would ask, "Isn't Liberty University the one that…" That question should be answered.

As for racism, the restriction on interracial dating at Bob Jones has continued throughout their existence, as far as I can tell from the sources. It helps to give meaning to that word, "Christian."

Please let me know your thoughts. Julian in LA (talk) 02:21, 26 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I think anyone wondering what the “Christian” in our name stands for would be getting the answer from these two items: The first one in the Lead section:

To receive accreditation, a school must have a "faith statement" identifying it as "part of the evangelical protestant tradition in higher education."

And the second one from our section on Standards for Accreditation:

As of 2024, TRACS stated that all accredited schools are not required to "duplicate the TRACS Biblical Foundations Statement, but the institution's Faith Statement should identify it as part of the evangelical protestant tradition in higher education". TRACS' Statement of Faith outlines the organization's adherence to certain Christian principles, such as the absolute authority of the Bible, as well as the redemptive sacrifice of Jesus. The Statement of Faith also describes a literal interpretation of the Biblical creation story.

I’ll reiterate, this article pertains to the accreditation agency, not to the individual schools and their actions prior to or after TRACS accreditation. None of these factors are pertinent to TRACS, and if they are, they should be included in their primary accreditation agency, SACS-COC.

Naraht, any input on these additional changes? Andy at TRACS (talk) 17:14, 2 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I am also anxious to hear comments from other editors. I would point out that there is no bar to member schools teaching Evolution or the Big Bang Theory, and the existing article does not imply otherwise. Julian in LA (talk) 17:26, 2 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

For Bob Jones, I'm uncomfortable with much information ending up here that isn't in Bob Jones University#Accreditation and rankings unless there is specific information available that SACSCOC would not have accepted them due to the rules on Inter-racial Dating. For Liberty, I don't think it should even that much. Articles on the schools make their political positions clear, One or two sentences (preferably on why they didn't go for SACS accredidation at a specific time) would be much more appropriate. As an example, John McCain shouldn't get mentioned in this article.Naraht (talk) 17:49, 2 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree that no accrediting agency (that I am aware of) bars schools on grounds of racism. On the other hand, Protestant schools in the North, such as St. Olaf College, have gone elsewhere for accreditation. Why? Julian in LA (talk) 18:11, 2 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

St. Olaf is accredited by Higher Learning Commission at least according to its category. HLC is a descendant of the former 6 regional acccrediting bodies, jus like SACS. So why is St. Olaf with HLC? Because it is in Minnesota, which is more or less equivalent to asking why Duke University (in North Carolina) is accredited by SACS.Naraht (talk) 18:22, 2 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"grounds of racism". Why mention it here then?Naraht (talk) 18:25, 2 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I was responding to your statement that "SACSCOC would not have accepted them due to the rules on Inter-racial Dating." Julian in LA (talk) 18:28, 2 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I would add that St. Olaf has regional accreditation. TRACS is not a regional accreditor. There must be a reason why a school would go from no accreditation to TRACS, or would seek TRACS accreditation in addition to their regional accreditation. The question in the mind of anyone reading the article is, "How is TRACS different from the other accreditors." Julian in LA (talk) 18:34, 2 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

And that information should largely be a link to Regional accreditation. For the HBCUs they lost Regional Accreditation. For Bob Jones, they chose TRACS first, and as such the information on the Bob Jones University section. We have no information on why Liberty chose TRACS first and anything beyond the fact that they went with TRACS is WP:OR.Naraht (talk) 18:45, 2 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Another question: Why is Andy so embarrassed at having his organization associated with these two schools? Julian in LA (talk) 18:36, 2 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Why is that at all relevant, and I don't honestly think he is, While I believe Andy is (somewhat) overemphasizing the degree to which the HBCU rescue is what tracs is known for, I just don't see "embarassment" in terms of his connection to the two schools.Naraht (talk) 18:45, 2 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I’m not embarrassed, but it doesn’t seem encyclopedic to paint an organization in a way that uses unrelated information. For instance, if you want to mention politically committed schools, it’s important to note that TRACS accredits schools with opposing political views. I believe schools like Paul Quinn College, Bennett College, and Clinton College should also be included in this list because they’ve had prominent speakers with opposing political views and should definitely be considered politically committed schools.

If you consider the word “Christian” to mean racist, you should note that +40% of our schools are Minority Serving Institutions (MSIs). How can TRACS be considered racist when we represent so many MSIs and Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs)? It just doesn't make sense or is an accurate reflection of who we are.

The only items you’ve included for these two categories are events that occurred before or after TRACS accreditation. Therefore, they’re not related to TRACS at all. Both schools are or were accredited by SACS-COC as their primary accrediting agency, so why paint TRACS as racist or one-sided politically, and you don’t do this with SACS-COC?

A Wikipedia article should reflect what the organization does or stands for. We’re not known for either racism (+40% MSI) or one-sided, politically committed schools. And just for the record, institutional political activities are outside the scope of accreditation in the US Department of Education Criteria for Recognition of accrediting agencies. Andy at TRACS (talk) 19:00, 2 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I hope everyone understands what is at stake here. If we remove references to the two schools because TRACS does not require or forbid their policies, we also have to remove references to the HBCUs, because TRACS did not exist when they established their character by admitting black students during segregation. Next, we will have to remove their references from the opening paragraph. We will be left with a sales brochure, which is what the COE review process is meant to prevent. Julian in LA (talk) 22:58, 2 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

No. Policies are irrelevant, characteristics are. Example conservative schools should have the same information as the HBCUs do. When did they get accredited and (if appropriate), removal of other accredidation. If a reader wants more information on the historical policies on the conservative school, they can go to that article. Not relevant to whether TRACS accredited them.Naraht (talk) 00:27, 3 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Please explain. Well over 100 schools are accredited. We can list all of them, or we can list none. If you want to list four HBCUs because of their "characteristics", it sounds like race is a characteristic, but political affiliation is not. Julian in LA (talk) 00:33, 3 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

No, you can list samples. to have the mention of the HBCUs in the lead, it needs to be a summary of information of the body. *and* both the facts that tracs accredits HBCUs "to rescue" is referenced *as* is the fact that in the US the schools accredited include some that are significant schools of the Evangelical Right. I have *no* idea where you get the idea that anyone wants to remove Liberty or Bob Jones. What is irrelevant to the article is policies which occurred before accredidation. A *single* referenced sentence showing the connection to the Evangelical Right for each is sufficient.Naraht (talk) 00:39, 3 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Evangelical Right is a fun word that I have not seen before. The newspapers used to talk about the Religious Right, then changed it to Evangelicals for reasons that were never explained to me. If you plan to use it, I hope you have a reference explaining what it means. It does not have a Wikipedia article at present. Julian in LA (talk) 01:04, 3 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I am reverting the deletion of the Racism section for lack of consensus. The previous discussion only concerned Liberty University and its political involvement.

The Bob Jones ban on interracial dating has existed throughout its accreditation period, so the "out of accreditation period" argument, irrelevant as it is, would not apply. If TRACS finds this association embarrassing, they should say so publicly, and then we can include it in this article.

On the question of whether TRACS is racist, of course it is not, and nothing in the article implies that. The fact that they accredit HBCUs is not relevant, because any racist would be in favor of black people going to "historically black" schools and staying away from the whites.

On the question of whether Christians can be racists, if a member of the Religious Right has declared that racism is un-Christian, I would love to reference it in the article. Julian in LA (talk) 15:48, 3 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you both for the time and effort you’ve invested in enhancing the TRACS article. As it currently stands, I’m satisfied. Personally, I would prefer a more balanced perspective on the politically committed schools, but I have an obvious conflict of interest and believe there’s a balance since HBCUs are mentioned and then the Republican-committed schools.

If you both concur, I can close this request. However, I wanted to express my sincere gratitude for your input, discussions, and dedication to improving Wikipedia.

Julian in LA, if you’re interested, I’m happy to discuss primary and secondary accreditation on your talk page. However, I don’t have any resources that would be suitable for an article. I’m more than willing to explain why some schools choose TRACS accreditation as a secondary agency and how the crosswalks work between primary and secondary accreditation agencies. Andy at TRACS (talk) 16:47, 3 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I went back and looked at the list of schools posted earlier and discovered that one of them is, indeed, a Lutheran school in Minnesota. I will include it on the list of member institutions. Curiously, it has two accreditations and Luther Rice College has three. So yes, please explain why these schools go to considerable effort to get TRACS accreditation when they are already accredited. Is it the cachet? Julian in LA (talk) 19:18, 4 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

At this point, it is quite clear that despite discussion, Julian in LA and I have completely come to an impasse as to whether the ban on interracial dating at Bob Jones University belongs in the article. Given Andy's COI, I think requesting WP:3O is the next logical step. Interracial Dating ban stopped in 2000, tracs didn't accredit them until 2006.Naraht (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Keep in mind that the requirement of parental permission remains in effect. Julian in LA (talk) 21:15, 4 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I will add some comments for the benefit of the next person reviewing this. I am sure it restates things I said earlier.

TRACS is not a regional accreditor. It claims to be different, and it has Christian in its name. It represents the Evangelical movement. While the actions of accredited schools can not be attributed to TRACS, they can certainly be attributed to the Evangelical movement of which it is a part.

The description of Bob Jones' dating policy is longer than it might be, in order to show that the parental permission policy was not implemented yesterday. It is the last vestige of a policy that was once explicitly racist. I challenged Andy to find an Evangelical authority who has denounced racism, but I don't think there is one.

I will add that college administrators are fond of talking about their hallowed traditions and how certain favorable things are "in our DNA." That affects the character of these schools, so it is not relevant that certain events occurred before or after they held TRACS accreditation. Julian in LA (talk) 22:58, 4 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Here are some links that demonstrate Evangelicals condemning racism, both personal and systemic. Is this what you were seeking? A simple Google search will yield numerous links from prominent leaders within the Evangelical movement, so I was puzzled by your challenge.

https://www.nae.org/topics/racial-justice-reconciliation/#:~:text=Evangelicals%20believe%20that%20the%20good,labor%20of%20love%20and%20justice.

https://www.baptist.org.uk/Articles/589128/Why_racism_is.aspx#:~:text=The%20gospel%20issues%20a%20resounding,building%20His%20Kingdom%20on%20Earth.

https://face.net/racism-a-biblical-response/

https://www.christianitytoday.com/2025/02/critical-race-theory-crt-sbc-systemic-racism-sin-social-justice-bible/

Here is an article showing Bob Jones University apologizing for its former racist policies: https://www.christianitytoday.com/2008/11/bob-jones-u-apologizes-for-former-racist-policies/ Andy at TRACS (talk) 14:00, 5 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Please also see this article on Bob Jones University's website posted since 2008: https://www.bju.edu/about/what-we-believe/race-statement.php where they say "for far too long, we allowed institutional policies regarding race to be shaped more directly by that ethos than by the principles and precepts of the Scriptures. We conformed to the culture rather than providing a clear Christian counterpoint to it. In so doing, we failed to accurately represent the Lord and to fulfill the commandment to love others as ourselves. For these failures we are profoundly sorry."

Statement about discrimination from the bottom of their website:

Students of any race, color, age, sex, national or ethnic origin, protected disability or veteran status, are admitted to all the rights, privileges, and activities generally accorded or made available to students at Bob Jones University. The University does not discriminate on the basis of race, color, age, sex, national or ethnic origin, protected disability or veteran status. Andy at TRACS (talk) 14:14, 5 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Probably relevant in some other article. Not relevant to this article.Naraht (talk) 19:09, 5 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Is this more acceptable? I'm not sure if the quote from Bob Jones III makes it better or worse.

===Interracial dating===

• Bob Jones University renounced its segregationist past in 2008,^[1] but retained a policy dating from 2000 that banned interracial dating by students without parental permission. School president Bob Jones III had said at the time that he thinks "most people view interracial marriage as an unwise decision" and that "when you date interracially or marry interracially, it cuts you off from people."^[2] The school was accredited by TRACS in 2006.

Julian in LA (talk) 20:32, 5 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following tends to indicate that the parental approval requirement is still in effect. I'm not sure whether it should be added to the paragraph.

In 2017, President Steve Pettit said that "Interracial dating is a social and cultural issue, not a biblical issue."

A brief history of the world's most unusual University

Greenville Journal

https://www.newspapers.com/image/879510450/

Fri, Apr 14, 2017 ·Page 14

newspapers.com Julian in LA (talk) 21:39, 5 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I’m not sure about ‘more acceptable.’ Just like Naraht, I believe none of this reflects TRACS as an accreditation agency, and it shouldn’t be included in the TRACS article. Let’s wait to see what the Third Opinion Request brings. Again, Bob Jones University also holds SACSCOC accreditation, and TRACS is the secondary accreditor, meaning the primary accreditor holds the primary responsibility for the accreditation. Therefore, I don’t understand how one institution’s pre-accreditation views have to be part of the TRACS article. Andy at TRACS (talk) 00:45, 6 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I revised the paragraph to reflect the 2008 renunciation. I included both quotations because some readers may see them as a smokescreen. Feel free to go ahead with the request for a third opinion.

Thank you to Andy for posting the links to antiracism Evangelicals. Julian in LA (talk) 01:51, 6 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Response to third opinion request:

Requesting Third Opinion on this article having a mention of Bob Jones Interracial dating. Naraht (talk) 13:37, 5 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see anything in Wikipedia:Third opinion#Active disagreements. Should I add it? Julian in LA (talk) 16:55, 7 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]