Talk:Hugh Roe O'Donnell

Image of O'Donnell

I've removed the highly problematic image of O'Donnell from the infobox. In addition to looking like something found on the cover of a period romance novel, the image info indicated that it was created by Gavigan 01 (talk · contribs) and would seem to constitute speculation/original research on O'Donnell's appearance. Dppowell (talk) 14:15, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it is a problematic image. We are not even sure if the term 'Rua' (Red) referred to his hair or to his complexion and the clothing is more authentically Disney than C16 Irish. However it would be a pity to have no pictorial content whatsoever. If someone has an image of the monument to the Battle of the Curlew mountains which depicts an abstract image of O'Donnell, perhaps that might be appropriate? Also a plaque was recently unveiled near the site of his grave in Valladolid. An image of that would be most welcome. O'Donnell is a prominent enough character to merit a few more illustrations methinks. ANB (talk) 04:24, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Someone's stuck it back in (& I think we're being awfully polite about it "seeming" to constitute original research...)FlaviaR (talk) 01:24, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. Yes. The image certainly creates a credibility problem, but it is 'festive', I'll give it that. Gay, even. Fast Rita (talk) 03:46, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Meow!! (Not that I disagree w/you....) FlaviaR (talk) 22:35, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've replaced the romanticised image of O'Donnell in the infobox with a photo of the modern abstract sculpture celebrating his victory at the Curlew Mountains. Its not terribly exciting, but in the absence of any surviving contemporary depiction of him (pity), I think its the most neutral image available. The article needs some sort of lead image. The old image is now in the Legacy section, since I think its worth keeping in the article as an example of how O'Donnell has come to be viewed since his death. ANB (talk) 21:39, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I agree, this image is ridiculous. It looks like a cross between a gay super-hero and something you'd see in a children's cartoon. The barbaric modernist construction, which looks like its made out of tinfoil in the other image isn't too much better. However in Donegal there is a really good monument to him, I'll make an image request on the Ireland WikiProject. Here are some (unfortunetly copywrited) examples of it from Flickr.com.[1][2][3][4] - Yorkshirian (talk) 12:10, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's a lovely monument and would certainly be an improvement to the article. Unfortunately, I don't think it is actually of Red Hugh O'Donnell of Nine Years War fame, but rather of his g-g-grandfather, also (unhelpfully!) called Aodh Rua Ó Domhnaill / Red Hugh O'Donnell. The dates on the plinth in these photos are 1427 -1505, while the O'Donnell of this article's dates are c.1572 - 1602. Do you know of any monuments to the younger Red Hugh in Donegal? I'd be surprised if there weren't any. ANB (talk) 14:59, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think the people who set the statue up seem to have mixed up the dates on it, but the comemoratorative tourist information near it seem to suggest its in honour of this man.[5] I can't imagine that his g-g-grandfather was notable enough to warrant a monument instead of this one. - Yorkshirian (talk) 22:15, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
He's reasonably notable. Though certainly isn't a household name like the younger Red Hugh. As you say, a lot of websites do suggest that it is the younger, more famous O'Donnell that is depicted. Oddly, the statue seems to have been unveiled as part of celebrations for the 400th anniversary of the Flight of the Earls, which muddies the waters still further. However, in the course of google searching I turned up the text of the speech given at the monument's unveiling in 2007 [6] and it states the work was intended to commemmorate the older Aodh Rua (who they call Aodh Ruaidh I) who built Donegal Castle and seems to have been a productive and busy guy generally. Actually, I think the older Red Hugh probably warrants a WP article in his own right, he's an interesting individual. Strange that this took priority over a monument to the younger Red Hugh though. ANB (talk) 00:44, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The image in question (which everyone who participated in this discussion seems to agree is not appropriate for the infobox) was restored by an anonymous IP back in April. I've replaced it with the image of the Curlew Mts. statue. Dppowell (talk) 04:22, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have added an image of "The Gaelic Chieftan" sculpture for the infobox image. No contemporary image of O'Donnell exists, and pages such as Richard of Shrewsbury, Duke of York and Rory O'More set a precedent for using posthumous portraits of noblemen in the infobox. I am open to using a more suitable image if one is found.

SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 1:50, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

O'Donnell's Title

I've changed the description of O'Donnell as 'Prince of Tyrconnell' to 'Lord of Tyrconnell'. 'Prince' appears to me to be a problematic term to use in a country which had no unified kingship based on primogenitur. ANB (talk) 04:19, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since when did that quite idiosynratic (and culturally English) definition of 'Prince' become standard? 'princes' 'kingships' 'kingdoms' and all else unquestionably existed in Ireland prior to British colonial occupation. See this standard academic text for example. 78.16.146.218 (talk) 21:29, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I've read Prof. Byrne's book, it's very good isn't it? I agree that the definition of 'prince' I'm suggesting is restrictive, but I do think it's widely held. The fact is that 'prince' (rightly or wrongly) conjures up a very definite set of associations for most people and I think those associations are potentially misleading in this context. I don't think any term is entirely satisfactory, but the O'Donnell's would, initially at any rate, have thought of themselves as 'kings' (as you imply) rather than 'princes'. Hence, if we reject 'lord' as too vague I think 'king' is preferable to 'prince'. ANB (talk) 19:00, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Flight to Spain and Death

I've removed the portion of the section above relating to his cause of death: "While it was once commonly held that he had been poisoned - a James Blake from Galway is often named as the assassin who befriended and then poisoned him on behalf of the English." The entry, aside from not having reference or citation, is also highly inflamatory and poorly constructed. I have yet to locate any source for such a claim that is not circular in reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.162.134.190 (talk) 16:06, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

Aodh Ruadh Ó Domhnaill → Hugh Roe O'Donnell — This page should be moved to either Hugh Roe O'Donnell or Red Hugh O'Donnell. Those are the anglicizations of his name and the names by which he is best known. Nobody knows him as Aodh Ruadh Ó Domhnaill except maybe the 3% in Ireland who still speak Irish as their native language. On that note, this is the English language version of Wikipedia, not the Irish language version. If we have anglicizations of his name, we should use them. John of Lancaster (talk) 20:37, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Jafeluv (talk) 01:46, 23 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Hugh Roe O'Donnell over Aodh Ruadh Ó Domhnaill

Folks, I would like to hear a few ideas upon the form of names used in many Irish biographical articles. This one is an example. It seems very strange to refer to people like him by the English form of their names, especially in this case when people like him barely spoke English and were deeply opposed to all things English. I am not asking for the article to be rewritten as Gaeilge, but to respect such aspects of their lives and insist upon Aodh Ruadh Ó Domhnaill over Hugh Roe O'Donnell. I might add this is also good scholarly practise here in Ireland to use these forms for such people, because of the deeply Gaelic context of their lives, so there are a number of good bases on which to do this. Fergananim (talk) 16:35, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not to mention this IS the English Wiki. HammerFilmFan (talk) 17:46, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Muiris mac Sean Ulltach

Is there any solid evidence that Fr Muiris mac Sean Ulltach was there at O'Donnell's death? The Annals of the Four Masters mention Flaithri O'Mulconry and Muiris mac Donogh Ulltach being present, but not the other Ulltach.


I understand that, in the 1630s, both Ulltachs contributed to the Annals of the Four Masters, and I think this may have caused confusion with which Ulltach was there. Please correct me on this if you have a reliable source.


This is the Annals passage I'm referencing: https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T100005F/text014.html


I SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 09:35, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Never mind. Apparently the other Ulltach was present, according to O'Donnell's will: https://www.jstor.org/stable/20496218


I SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 12:26, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Birthdate

Can someone please provide a reference for Hugh's birthdate of 30 October 1572? It is currently unsourced.

Hugh's birthdate of 30 October was added in June 2011 by [[User:Yobot]], a bot account, from Wikimedia.

I checked Hugh Roe O'Donnell's Wikimedia page and it references his birthdate as being "imported from Wikimedia project Russian Wikipedia", without providing an actual reference.

His birthdate on the [|Russian page] is similarly unsourced.

SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 15:15, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've found this document study pack from the Donegal County Council which states his birthdate as being "October 1572". https://archive.org/details/CulturalResources006/page/n47/mode/2up

SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 8:11, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Further update: Success! I've found this book from 1984 which lists his birthdate as 30 October 1572: Starke, Shirley (1984). Red Hugh: The Story of Hugh Roe O'Donnell (PDF). Valley City, North Dakota: The Aodh Ruadh Ó Domhnaill Guild. p. 3.

I was worried for a while that the 30 October date might have been circular reporting that began on Wikipedia. Good to know this is resolved.

SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 7:34, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Current issues with the page

At the moment, this article relies far too much on primary sources (History of the Irish Franciscan Monasteries, Philip O'Sullivan Beare, O'Clery's Life of Hugh Roe) which are obviously biased towards portraying O'Donnell positively. I'm not saying we shouldn't use these sources, but they need to be accompanied by secondary sources.

I think this article's positive bias towards O'Donnell is a larger problem though. Eg, The way it discussed O'Donnell's murder of his four-year-old nephew. Historians John McGurk and Hiram Morgan point out that there is uncertainty whether the murder occurred, but it can't be dismissed out of hand. Before I added those bits in recently, this article heavily implied that the murder was simply English propaganda, with no real source to back up the claim.

Across the next few months I will be heavily rewriting this article using James O'Neill's 2017 book on the Nine Years' War, Hiram Morgan's Dictionary of Irish Biography entry on O'Donnell, and Darren McGettigan's 2005 biography (in addition to various other reliable secondary sources).

I welcome any help in improving this article and getting it up to standard. SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 23:24, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think primary sources are the actual parchments residing in the remote archives of Rome, Madrid, etc., written in archaic versions of languages most contributors don't speak, containing many obsolete and technical terms requiring professional training to parse correctly.
I suspect that the sources you are citing are heavily redacted, edited and foot-noted editions published in the 19th and 20th centuries by professional historians. Which necessarily makes them secondary.
Of course, there are significant differences among secondary sources, but for my money I prefer those that heavily reference their interpretation of original primary documents. It's how you know they have a vested concern with accuracy and transparency, instead of irresponsible speculation. JackMason1 (talk) 09:10, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Jack, I agree that sources which directly quote original texts are incredibly valuable. My concern is that O'Sullivan Beare and O'Clery themselves had vested interests in portraying Hugh Roe O'Donnell as infallible and heroic. I think we should acknowledge the way O'Donnell's contemporaries saw him, but we should also utilise the research of modern historians when it comes to discussing O'Donnell's personality, military tactics, etc. And again, the article needs a healthy mix of citations (original texts + modern research). SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 03:48, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So it's more a matter of maintaining a proper critical distance from the subject rather than primary sources per se. Because--although I'm not an expert on the literature--I highly doubt Hugh Roe did not have his critics within the Crown Establishment of the time. I'm sure there are some quotes available if one looks hard enough.
I know O'Connor Sligo was not a fan. Just working off memory here, but I believe that when Hugh Roe discarded Tyrone's daughter, he proposed marriage to the daughter of O'Connor Sligo. I believe his motivation would be to legitimate his conquests in Connacht, in keeping with historical precedents, as well as to secure an heir. But the woman herself was less than enamored, and made some uncomplimentary comments about his appearance. Can't recall where I read that, but some internet searching might turn something up.
Sir Shane O'Doherty was not a fan, either, and he corresponded with the Crown in an attempt to secure their support to his independence as Lord of Inishowen. Matthew McGinty touched upon this in a recent paper, "Every Kingdom Divided".
Bottom line: you don't become a leader of any kind without making a whole lot of enemies who are not shy about sharing their opinions.
The essential problem is the same as obtained in the Gov. Moore situation, raised to the power of whatever--how to present conflicting perspectives on a revered legend without starting a flame war.
My takeaway from that situation is that direct contrast works better than trying to de-legitimize sources. Like, explicitly indicating the relationship or perspective of BOTH "sides" instead of challenging the adequacy of a specific perspective. Everybody has bias, and in my experience, at least, it's pretty rare that some published source is so grotesquely inadequate that it is objectively "wrong" in an absolute sense.
Focusing on the primary/secondary distinction as validating critera feels unlikely to be very productive to me. It's such a poorly defined criterion that even if the wiki authorities were to make an explicit decision in some case, it would only have the practical effect of enflaming opposition. It's extremely rare that undisputed original research would premiere on wikipedia, rather than the book market.
You probably don't want to do a "he said: she said" on a line-by-line basis. Maybe you could do something like add a new section entitled "Controversies" or "Alternative Perspectives", with an introduction specifying that a lot of the early literature about the subject emerged from the specific context of the nascent, anti-colonial nationalism of the 19th century, with later generations shifting focus to internal, domestic conflicts and perspectives, addressing a new set of social and political theories, inevitably leading to a variety of opinions. Something like that. JackMason1 (talk) 06:48, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gregorian or Julian Calendar

I want to bring up dating within the article - which calendar to use?

The Gregorian calendar was used by the Irish confederates and chroniclers throughout O'Donnell's lifetime, but it wasn't adopted for good until 1752 (when Ireland was under British rule). The Manual of Style seems to imply that the article should use the Julian calendar. It says that we should check with sources like Encyclopedia Britannica and the Dictionary of Irish Biography, which use the Julian.

I think an exception can be made for this article. The Gregorian calendar is the calendar that O'Donnell and the people around him would have used. Additionally most media articles about O'Donnell's funeral use 10 September, his Gregorian calendar death date.

If there is a consensus on this, I will add footnotes referencing the "Old Style" date - Manual of Style states that "here it is not obvious that a given date should be given in Julian alone or in Gregorian alone, consider giving both styles". SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 08:12, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hugh Roe's fellow hostages

I'm asking for clarification on the identity of Hugh Roe's companions when he was kidnapped in 1587. It seems that after the kidnapping, some trading of the hostages occured, which has confused some historians. The following sources seem to contradict each other regarding who these hostages were.

Philip O'Sullivan Beare: "MacSweeny Fanad was released upon his giving them as a hostage his son, Donnell MacSweeny surnamed Gorm. MacSweeny, Tuath was also released upon giving as a hostage a youth of humble birth dressed in his son's clothes. Owen O'Gallagher likewise gave as a hostage Hugh O'Gallagher, his nephew, the son of his brother Cormack. Birmingham returning to Dublin handed over to the Viceroy the four hostages, Roe, Gorm, Hugh, and the peasant youth whom the Viceroy dismissed when he ascertained he was not Tuath's son. The three noble youths were committed to the castle of Dublin with the other hostages." (Note that O'Sullivan Beare mistakenly calls the captain "John Birmingham" instead of Nicholas Barnes.)

Darren McGettigan, Red Hugh O'Donnell and the Nine Years War (p. 42): "O’Donnell went on board the Mathew, where he was taken prisoner along with McSweeney Fanad’s son, Donnell Gorm, and Owny, the son of Owen McShane O’Gallagher."

Hiram Morgan, Tyrone's Rebellion (p. 128): "In September 1587 Hugh Roe was imprisoned in Dublin Castle along with the eldest sons of MacSweenys Fanad and na dTuath and a son of O'Gallagher."

If anyone could clarify this, preferably with a citation, it would be much appreciated. SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 10:12, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here's Perrot's account dated 26 Sept. 1587, from the Calendar of MSS at Hatfield House iii p.285: https://archive.org/details/calendarofmanusc03grea_1/page/285/mode/1up
I got the reference from the intro to Life of Hugh Roe O'Donnell (1893) xxxiii, which has a few extra details: https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Beata_Goda_Ruaid_Ui_Domnaill_The_Life_of/m8TVAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=The+life+of+Hugh+Roe+O%27Donnell,+prince+of+Tirconnell&pg=PR41&printsec=frontcover
I've seen a note that collates the 1893 account with the account in Lughaidh O Cleirigh's Beatha Aodha Ruaidh Ui Dhomhnaill, ed. Paul Walsh (2 vols, Irish Texts Society, xlii, xlv, London, 1948, 1957), i, 4-12, ii, 207-8 (notes). No luck chasing down those references from open source, but I suspect that's where you'll find the fullest and most reliable information since the ITS is uber scholarly in its treatment of Gaelic material.
The Calender of state papers Ireland summarizes a Perrot letter on the subject dated 27 Sept, 1587; the editor notes an extract of the same in a letter of 26 Nov. (also just a summary): https://archive.org/details/1887calendarofstatep03greauoft/page/410/mode/1up?view=theater
I guess these are copies of the letter transcribed in the Hatfield link above.
Be/irmingham seems to be the agent who chartered the vessel. The skipper's name - well, Nicholas Skipper in this account, and I'm unsure where the name Barnes comes into it. I see Skipper was the name given in this article until recently. The guy who supplied the wine was one of the Ormond Butlers - kidding: too much nominative determinism. Shtove
ps. I also found this list of Dublin Castle captives in Analecta Hibernica (1930) 96, with specific reference to the O'Donnell incident. On closer inspection it does have "Nicholas Barnes alias Skipper", but doesn't seem to add information to what you already have on O'Donnell's companions. But I might have missed the very information you're looking for - (JSTOR - needs sign-in): https://www.jstor.org/stable/25510904?read-now=1&seq=86#page_scan_tab_contents (talk) 22:19, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, these sources are so helpful! Perrot confirms the three hostages (in addition to Hugh Roe) who arrived in Dublin on 25 September. Additionally, it appears that Nicholas Skipper was also known as Nicholas Barnes (see the sources I have added to the article). Modern historians have preferred "Barnes" so I have used that name. SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 12:00, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Clan O'Donnell" or "O'Donnell clan"

Which phrasing is preferred by historians and/or contemporary sources? Is consistency required? SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 03:01, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Does it make a difference? Both are legible and in common use.
I made a more substantive comment on the Niall Garve talk page about the fundamental conceptual incoherence of the idea of a 'Clann Dalaigh branch' of the O'Donnells--they're all descendants of Dalach. Dalach was the grandfather of the original Donnell. But nobody took that one up. And that's a case where there is a real definitional difference.
Why would there be a problem with 'O'Donnell Clan' vs. 'Clan O'Donnell' if the actual nonsense of a 'Clann Dalaigh branch' is acceptable? JackMason1 (talk) 03:21, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, thanks for letting me know.
Regarding Niall Garve, Terry Clavin refers to the branch as the "Clann-Dalaigh branch". Feel free to change it if you have a better source. SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 04:08, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If Clavin really used that language, then he is simply wrong. Look it up yourself. Niall Garve's pedigree is well known. The only Dalach in his pedigree--or any O'Donnell pedigree--is the 9th century father of Eigneachan, father of the 1st Donnell, name father of the clan. By definition, ALL Tyrconnell O'Donnells are descended from Dalach. There is no other 'branch' of the clan that could be distinguished from any other by reference to Dalach.
I mean, can you find another reference anywhere to a distinct 'branch' called Clann Dalaigh? I doubt it.
You will find references to 'Clann Dalaigh', but they will only be poetic descriptions of the O'Donnell clan as a whole. Because, as I repeat, by definition, all descendants of Donnell mac Eigneachain are descendants of Dalach.
Is this a case of Clavin actually describing Clann-Dalaigh as a 'branch'? Or somebody else who quoted Clavin, possibly out of context, inserting this mistake into an otherwise correct statement? Because it's an extremely weird mistake to make. I mean, everyone makes 'em. That's why pencils have erasers. But that's one I don't think I've EVER heard before.
This is like being asked to provide proof for an objection to describing Barack Obama's father as "Bob Obama". No, I can't find a source that explicitly contradicts the "Bob" attribution, but only because it is so wrong that nobody has ever made that mistake before. JackMason1 (talk) 05:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Additionally, is "Lord of Tyrconnell" or "King of Tyrconnell" preferred? SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 05:12, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In the abstract, this is an interesting philosophical/legal question. It hinges on the precise nature of the Tyrconnell polity and its moral legitimacy. Its formal, constitutional basis, if you will.
In 1542, Henry VIII assumed the title "King of Ireland", whereas his predecessors had called themselves "Lords of Ireland". But this change was the result of a bureaucratic process very different from the native Irish one, which was more an accretion of unwritten traditions than registered legislation, making them not directly comparable--apples and oranges.
I don't think the native tradition was so particular about distinguishing between the terms. I'm pretty sure I've seen both titles used indifferently. Maybe 'king' is more formal, implying the sanction of tradition, and 'lord' might, depending on context, have a hint of informal hegemony--maybe not entirely legitimate. Like, you may be the proper successor to your ancestors as "king", but subject tribes you rule by right of conquest may never think of you as more than "lord".
But honestly, at the end of the day, most wiki readers probably won't find much utility in making this a hard distinction. It raises all sorts of unsolvable moral questions about the specific timeline of anti-colonial struggle. I could see it becoming an invitation for very boring bigoted hacks to make us lose our faith in the generosity of the human race. JackMason1 (talk) 06:25, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It seems that "King" is preferred for Hugh Roe's predecessors because their reigns were less encumbered by invading English forces. I just feel that we should be consistent in using King or Lord. Tigerna (Lord) and Rí (King) are the Irish terms. Do we know what Hugh Roe called himself in Irish or English?
Side note: this page sidesteps the issue by titling it "List of rulers of Tyrconnell" SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 07:20, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
TBH, I said what I had to say, but I'm afraid my interest in this topic is kind of exhausted. I don't see this as something where there needs to be such a narrow standard. IMHO, that would just make the language boring and repetitive and require arbitrary choices that have latent potential for unnecessary politically motivated controversy. It was interesting for a second as theoretical question, but that second is gone and all I see now is pointless pedantry.
That's all. Not wanting to appear ruder than I already have been, but I'm tapping out on this one. JackMason1 (talk) 08:55, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No worries SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 09:43, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Crown of Castile, Habsburg Spain, Spain

HapHaxion has changed O'Donnell's place of death in the infobox to Crown of Castile. Is this correct? Maybe it should be Habsburg Spain, or suffixed with (present-day Spain). Is there a concensus? SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 07:14, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong death date?

These two sources, plus Darren McGettigan's biography of Red Hugh, state that he died on 9 September instead of 10 September. https://www.jstor.org/stable/20496218 https://www.jstor.org/stable/27659140

30 August has been given as O'Donnell's Julian calendar date of death. According to this calendar site, 30 August Julian corresponds with 9 September Gregorian. SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 13:58, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Most sources still say that he died 10 September, so I've left it as that SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 05:38, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Update: Ludvico Mansoni, who was present at O'Donnell's death, wrote that he died on 9 September SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 05:52, 25 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Date of funeral

Do we have an exact date for O'Donnell's funeral? He died on 10 September, and the State Papers reference his funeral in a letter dated 28 September (New Style) (page 484), but I can't find a more exact date. Surely this date should be in some Spanish state document? Micheline Kerney Walsh stated that O'Donnell's funeral was "a fortnight" after his illness, but based on context she's not giving an exact date. (Hugh O'Neill: Prince of Ulster, page 34) SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 06:38, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Mary Purcell stated that the funeral was the same evening of the day O'Donnell died (see the citation on the page) SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 05:53, 25 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Red Hugh killing nephew

Are there any sources which discuss O'Donnell's alleged killing of his nephew (Niall Garve and Nuala's son)? It seems to be a controversial topic among historians, and it seems some pro-O'Donnell historians ignore it entirely or write it off as English propaganda. I'm not interested in slandering/praising O'Donnell - but if there are any respected historians who doubt that the murder took place, it would be good to know. John McGurk and Hiram Morgan both seem to lean towards "it did happen". SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 09:05, 14 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Photos of funeral / excavation

If anyone has a photo of the funeral reenactment, please upload it to wikimedia, as it would improve this page. SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 07:00, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note 1 as of 15 March 2025 - legitimacy of Niall Garve's rule

Quote from Note 1:

". . . Niall Garve O'Donnell was traditionally inaugurated in 1603 but his right to rule Tyrconnell was not recognised."

By whom? Seems like an overstatement, as the Crown's conclusion that they could not successfully convict Niall Garve with an Irish jury seems to prove that he did indeed enjoy a decisive level of support. Seems like the highest level of legitimacy one could hope for.

I think it's fairer to say that, in retrospect, historians have doubted the relevance of the inauguration ritual given the recent Crown intervention and survival of potential rival candidates in exile overseas. But that's only in hindsight, in view of the sweeping changes brought about by the Planation. Consider that Hugh Roe's father had succeeded under similar circumstances, being eased by the imprisonment of the incumbent's son, Conn, in Dublin. JackMason1 (talk) 03:52, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the latter part of the sentence, so only Niall's inauguration is mentioned. SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 14:04, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. JackMason1 (talk) 14:21, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

GA review

I am going to go ahead and close this review since it appears to have been abandoned by the reviewer. No comments from User:Matarisvan have been received since July. I apologize to User:SkywalkerEccleston for this inconvenience, and strongly encourage them to resubmit to GA in order to procure another reviewer. Bgsu98 (Talk) 12:11, 12 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This review is transcluded from Talk:Hugh Roe O'Donnell/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: SkywalkerEccleston (talk · contribs) 14:05, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Matarisvan (talk · contribs) 14:21, 24 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]


Hi SkywalkerEccleston, I will review this one too, once we're done with the review of the Henry O'Neill article. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 14:21, 24 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 00:10, 25 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Matarisvan, do you have an estimate on when this review may be completed? Thanks. SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 09:10, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@SkywalkerEccleston, the prose is in very good shape, but the size of the article and the number of references are both too big. Per WP:TOOBIG, an article bigger than 15,000 thousand words must be reduced in size, and this article has 15,052 words right now. The total number of references are 610 now, and this makes doing spot checks very tough. So I would suggest you split the article into at least two separate articles, three separate articles would be much better. Please let me know if I should put this review on hold till then, or quickfail it now and then you can nominate it later when done. Matarisvan (talk) 16:02, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for letting me know Matarisvan. I will begin condensing the size of the article and number of sources. I will also try to remove the 19th-century DNB citations and remove them with more modern sources. SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 02:52, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Matarisvan, I have significantly condensed the article and removed many sources. Let me know if the current size works. SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 14:19, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@SkywalkerEccleston, the word size tool (link [7]) still shows the article size is about 14,000 words. You have done an admirable job cutting 1,000 words and their associated content; but the article is still too big per Wikipedia guidelines. I would suggest you cut 3,000 more words, or 200 more references to get within the range recommended by the guidelines. I will take a look at the article tomorrow, and see if I can recommend any sections which can be cut or shifted to another article. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 15:57, 22 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I will attempt to cut the article size down further. SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 00:43, 23 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Matarisvan, I have cut down the article further but have reached a point where I cannot make it any shorter. Let me know if you have any suggestions on what I can cut or move to another article. SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 23:18, 23 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@SkywalkerEccleston, some suggestions for further trimming the text, starting from the last section:
  • In the "Pop culture" section, I would recommend moving all but the first sentence to the Roisin Dubh section, as it would be more relevant there and not here.
  • In the "Character" section, remove the O'Mooney blockquote? Blockquotes have lost favor on wiki, particularly at FAC, where I think you have a strong chance of passing after this nomination is done.
  • In the Beatha subsection of the Historiography section, I would recommend moving the second paragraph to the Lugaidh article as it describes the writing of the Beatha, and is not directly relevant to O'Donnell.
  • In the Modern reappraisal subsection, I would recommend moving the following text to the article about Tyrone: "James MacGeoghegan rehabilitated Tyrone's reputation in the eighteenth century.[395] Twentieth-century historians, such as John Mitchel, Seán Ó Faoláin[396] and Hiram Morgan,[397] restored Tyrone to the status he was formerly afforded by contemporary English commentators, and gave him more prominence as the Irish confederacy's leader.[394]" It is more relevant to Tyrone and not to Hugh. The last sentence of this paragraph can be retained and merged with any of the following paragraphs.
  • I have found nothing yet in the Travel to Spain section which can be cut. I will resume reading through the 7 preceding sections after the above suggestions have been actioned, I hope this is ok. Cheere
Matarisvan (talk) 13:28, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Matarisvan, I have actioned all these changes, with the exception of the blockquote. I feel that it is important to include one of the only physical and character descriptions of O'Donnell. Let me know how you go with reading the rest of the article. Thanks. SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 14:28, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Matarisvan, let me know if any other sections of the article can be cut down or improved. Thanks. SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 01:28, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@SkywalkerEccleston, I will need some time for further editing. I will probably post my comments or trim the article by tomorrow or Monday. Matarisvan (talk) 14:43, 12 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hi User:Matarisvan, let me know if you have further requests for the article. Thanks. SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 13:56, 4 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

User:SkywalkerEccleston and User:Matarisvan: What is the status of this review? Bgsu98 (Talk) 13:59, 4 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I have made the changes that User:Matarisvan has suggested, and am currently waiting on an update SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 22:32, 4 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA review

Passed. Joko2468 (talk) 09:56, 13 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This review is transcluded from Talk:Hugh Roe O'Donnell/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: SkywalkerEccleston (talk · contribs)

Reviewer: Joko2468 (talk · contribs) 23:57, 11 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]


General comments

Excellent work on the article and on addressing the points raised at the previous review, it's a shame you've had to wait so long for another. You may want to submit to the Royalty, nobility and heraldry subtopic in the furture, reviews there tend to be quite a bit quicker. I appreciate that you've got another review open at present, so feel free to get on with that first. I'm happy with the length as is, 11,000 words is not abnormal for articles about significant figures with significant legacies-- as long as there's a high quality stable lede that can adequately serve the shortform reader, which there appears to be.

I made some changes pertaining to typos, grammar, and clarity, feel free to amend or revert as you see fit (no need to justify). Philip O'Sullivan Beare is first introduced in a note, I introduced him in the prose as well since readers often don't take the time to read notes. I added a link to High sheriff since I think most readers might associate that with the Wild West. "The queen" tends to be capitalised when talking about a specific monarch. Added U.S. PD tags to some of the illustrations.

  • "Catholic persecution" in the lede should link to Recusancy in Ireland-- this article is a bit neglected but it at least points the reader to some relevant context so they can continue learning about the topic.
  • The family tree is a great visual aide, but for readers who have the default appearance of Wikipedia (with both the Contents and Appearance tabs) its size means the section becomes quite jarring to read. Could we collapse it by default? Readers would still open it to gather the context.
  • "High king" in the Rise to prominence subsection should link to High King of Ireland. "He became associated with Aodh Eangach, a prophesised high king" is a little unclear to a new reader in my view. It might be rephrased as "[[Some of] his contemporaries (if it doesn't say)] came to associate him with Aodh Eangach, a prophesised high king".
  • Is there anything on why O'Donnell was incentivised to escape after Donal's death? Was it because of his safety once he got out? You don't need to clarify this if you think it's readily apparent.
  • Is there another source on Elizabeth I's reaction to O'Donnell's escape? A modern source corroborating this would quell any neutrality concerns-- specifically "outraged" just strikes me as potentially an element of folklore. Joko2468 (talk) 23:57, 11 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Joko2468
I have removed "outraged" from the statement about Queen Elizabeth.
High King of Ireland is already linked under Family background: "... from the semi-legendary High King Niall of the Nine Hostages..."
I have changed "by news of Donal's death" to "by news of Donal's rebellion" to make it more accurate to the source.
All other concerns have been addressed. SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 01:21, 12 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Significance to Irish nationalism

  • Was O'Donnell ever invoked by prominent figures of the Irish nationalist movement? It seems to me a natural thing that they might draw from-- I appreciate this is a bit of a slog to research so I'll have a hunt myself as well. Joko2468 (talk) 23:57, 11 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @Joko2468 Thanks, good idea. I will have a search as well. SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 01:21, 12 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    • Should O'Donnell Abú be mentioned twice in the article, for its significance to the Irish nationalist movement and to popular culture? Maybe some information specifying the significance of the song to the movement would be valuable, if it's out there.
    • I'd have expected figures like Patrick Pearse to have invoked the Nine Years' War during the Easter Rising. I have this poem (automatic download, p.38) he authored on the Irish rebels that preceded him, one of the lines is reserved for Red Hugh. As the source says, he was a prolific poet so I'm uncertain as to the significance of this-- though it's nonetheless interesting for the reader and it seems to be covered by a few journal articles. If you think this is significant enough for inclusion then I would introduce the poem as a whole, clarifying that O'Donnell was one of several figures invoked alongside O'Neil and whoever else you think is most noteworthy among the names there.
    • This article (automatic download) may be useful for the pop culture section if not for nationalism.
    Joko2468 (talk) 12:24, 12 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @Joko2468Thanks, I have added those sources to the article SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 02:13, 13 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    Excellent, well done. Joko2468 (talk) 09:53, 13 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Citations spot check

278, 172, 397, 262, 43, 208, 405, 356, 352, 109, 91, 398

  • 262: I don't have this one, could you provide me with the quotation supporting this?
  • 356: this needs to be cited with a page number, could you provide with the quotations for these?
  • 92: this doesn't seem to say that he ate bark, only leaves. Joko2468 (talk) 00:15, 12 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]
262: "The arrival of Niall Garbh and his three brothers with all their following to Docwra enabled him not only to take in straightway the strategic fortress of the Lifford with scarcely any opposition but also to extend his military operations against the Irish into Inishowen, Tyrconnell, and Tyrone, in other words north, east and west of the main garrisons on the Foyle."
356: I have tried to get my hands on FMO's book for a while but it is either too expensive or unavailable. Many extracts from his book are freely available online - Sources 1, 14 and 19 are extracts from this book FMO published online. This abstract ( https://www.academicapress.com/node/330 ) states that "Hugh Dubh [Hugh Roe's father] and his family were the last undisputed dynasts to rule effectively." Is there a way I could put a call out on Wikipedia to see if anyone has a copy of this book, and if they could check if it covers the claims? Thanks.
92: Removed statement about bark
@Joko2468 SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 01:31, 12 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Great thanks. You can go to Wikipedia:Resource support pilot and put in a request for Wikimedia to buy the book and have it delivered to you, as long as you commit to using it to improve an article. In the meantime, would you be able to cite those book extracts instead? Joko2468 (talk) 12:38, 12 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I've requested the book via the Wikipedia:Resource support pilot tool. I have added other sources and extracts in for the time being. SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 09:37, 13 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Checklist

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable, as shown by a source spot-check.
    a (reference section): b (inline citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:


Suggestions outside the scope of the review

  • You're much better placed to judge this than I, but I found it a little confusing that the Gaelic names were used in the infobox for the Nine Years' War-- is this a common thing in the topic area? It seems it would run counter to WP:Use English but I wouldn't want to potentially start a skirmish unnecessarily.
  • To my reading, "senior leader" in the lede seems to me to downplay his significance slightly by suggesting the need to qualify the seniority of the term, would it be more appropriate to use "central" or simply "leader", or something to that effect? I appreciate it's a bit of an NPOV matter to represent historians' POVs of him as both "preeminent leader" and "junior partner".
  • There's a lot of names to keep track of in the article so you might want to consider linking to them a couple of times to jog the reader's memory (MOS:DUPLINK states its limit at one per major section).
  • A couple of maps to help orientate readers in the Initial rebellion and Renewal of hostilities sections might be worth adding-- if there isn't one available then I'm happy to make them for you (they're usually quite easy to do with Inkscape). No worries if you think it would become cluttered. Joko2468 (talk) 00:15, 12 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    @Joko2468 Yes, the names of the Irish confederates in the Nine Years' War (Ireland) infobox have been changed back and forth between Gaelic names and Anglicised names. Per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English-language sources) they should almost all be the anglicised versions of their names. Hopefully there can be a discussion about this at some point in the future because I worry it could turn into an edit war.
    Some sources refer to Tyrone as the leader, and some sources refer to both men leading the confederacy. I think "leader" appeases both camps. "Commander" is also accurate, but my concern is that it does not quickly establish O'Donnell's significance in the confederacy.
    I will go through and link more names, keeping this in mind.
    I would appreciate if you could create some maps - I've never used Inkscape before but it seems like it could be a good tool to illustrate various battles and kingdoms involved in the Nine Years' War. SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 01:43, 12 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay great, it would look like File:India map thuggee.png or File:Ukr 1941-1942 annotations colours dnieper borders(var.2a).png depending on the maps available to build on top of or to trace from. I've looked online, in O'Neil's book, and in atlases and there doesn't appear to be any political maps of Tyrconnell, Tyrone etc., just this map of the Tudor counties but to my understanding this doesn't necessarily correspond to the fiefdoms. It's unfortunately just going to have to be points of interest with this dodgy map underneath (it's too warped to trace onto an accurate map), if you're happy with this then I'll make a start. No worries at all if not. Joko2468 (talk) 12:43, 12 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]
    This would be the first one, it's a bit bare and cluttered. Happy to make any alterations. Don't feel compelled to use it, this was very straightforward to do. It'd probably be better to put text on top of the period map so readers can better line them up.
Map of Ireland
Enlarged view of Ulster, most likely as of 1598
Joko2468 (talk) 22:37, 12 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks @Joko2468, I have added both maps into the article. SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 09:31, 13 February 2026 (UTC)[reply]
allikas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hugh_Roe_O%27Donnell