Current lead wording:

Azerbaijanis (/ˌæzərbaɪˈdʒæni, -ɑːni/; Azerbaijani: Azərbaycanlılar, آذربایجانلیلار), Azeris or Azerbaijani Turks (Azərbaycan türkləri, آذربایجان تۆرکلری) are a Turkic ethnic group living mainly in the Azerbaijan region of northwestern Iran and the Republic of Azerbaijan.

Proposed wording:

Azerbaijanis (/ˌæzərbaɪˈdʒæni, -ɑːni/; Azerbaijani: Azərbaycanlılar, آذربایجانلیلار) or Azeris are Turkic-speaking people of predominantly Iranian and Caucasian descent living mainly in the Azerbaijan region of northwestern Iran and the Republic of Azerbaijan.

Reason for removing “Azerbaijani Turks (Azərbaycan türkləri, آذربایجان تۆرکلری)” The phrase “Azerbaijani Turks (Azərbaycan türkləri, آذربایجان تۆرکلری)” is ambiguous and can be read as a claim about ethnic origin rather than language. Modern scholarship and reference works treat Azerbaijanis primarily as Turkic-speaking people whose ancestry is mixed (Iranian and Caucasian substrata with later Turkic influence). Describing them as “Turks” risks conflating language and ethnicity and introduces a politicized label that is unnecessary in the lead. To keep the article neutral and consistent with academic usage, the unambiguous term “Azerbaijanis” (or “Azeris”) should be used in the lead.

Reason for replacing “Turkic ethnic group” I propose changing the lead phrase “Turkic ethnic group” to “Turkic-speaking people of predominantly Iranian and Caucasian descent”. Reliable sources (Encyclopaedia Iranica; Encyclopaedia Britannica) describe Azerbaijanis as Turkic-speakers whose origins reflect an older Iranian/Caucasian substratum and later Turkic influence; genetic work (e.g. Balanovsky et al. 2011; Agdzhoyan et al. 2023) supports a mixed ancestry rather than wholesale descent from Central Asian Turks. The proposed wording is more accurate, verifiable, and neutral.

Sources

• "Azerbaijanis". Encyclopaedia Britannica. Retrieved 2025-09-13.
• "AZERBAIJAN". Encyclopaedia Iranica. Retrieved 2025-09-13.
• "ĀẔARĪ language". Encyclopaedia Iranica. Retrieved 2025-09-13.
• Balanovsky, O. (2011). "Parallel evolution of genes and languages in the Caucasus region". Molecular Biology and Evolution. 28 (10): 2905–2920. doi:10.1093/molbev/msr126. PMC 3355373. PMID 21571925.
• Agdzhoyan, A. (2023). "Origins of East Caucasus Gene Pool". Genes. 14 (9): 1780. doi:10.3390/genes14091780. PMC 10530682.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link) Sinatruth (talk) 22:07, 13 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks — I appreciate the point about self-identification. My edit request aims to make the lead clearer and better sourced by distinguishing language from ancestry. See Iranica and Britannica, which describe Azerbaijanis as Turkic-speakers with an Iranian/Caucasian substratum. ~~~~ Sinatruth (talk) 10:09, 15 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the flag — I appreciate the attention to WP:WEIGHT. My concern is the opposite: the present phrase "Turkic ethnic group" risks implying a single-origin descent. Key secondary sources (Encyclopaedia Iranica; Encyclopaedia Britannica) describe Azerbaijanis as Turkic-speaking with an older Iranian/Caucasian substratum, and genetic studies (Balanovsky et al. 2011; Agdzhoyan et al. 2023) support a mixed-origin picture consistent with language shift rather than wholesale replacement.

If you believe this phrasing gives undue weight to a minority view, could you point to reliable secondary sources that explicitly characterize Azerbaijanis as predominantly descended from Central Asian Turks? ~~~~ Sinatruth (talk) 11:47, 16 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

No one is arguing they aren't a Turkic group. Rather that the term 'Azerbaijani Turks' is undue as a general term for the group. If anything the phrase 'Azerbaijani Turks' implies they are a subgroup rather than an independent one—blindlynx 17:27, 16 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I’m not suggesting Azerbaijanis are uniquely mixed — most ethnic groups have complex histories.

• Encyclopaedia Iranica discusses an older Iranian (Old Azari) and Caucasian substratum in the region and later Turkic influence.
• Encyclopaedia Britannica describes Azerbaijanis as Turkic-speakers who also derive from older regional inhabitants (Iranian/Caucasian).
• Genetic studies (Balanovsky et al., 2011; Agdzhoyan et al., 2023) show admixture and affinities with Caucasus/Near Eastern populations consistent with language-shift / elite-dominance models rather than mass replacement.

This is why I proposed replacing “Turkic ethnic group” with “Turkic-speaking people of predominantly Iranian and Caucasian descent” — it keeps language prominent while reflecting the scholarly picture of mixed origins. If you think that wording gives undue weight to a minority view, could you cite reliable secondary sources that state Azerbaijanis are predominantly descended from Central Asian Turks? I'm asking again. Sinatruth (talk) 17:37, 16 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your reply. My claims are supported by reliable secondary sources. I will explain

• Encyclopaedia Britannica

Second paragraph

Summary: This section explains that Azerbaijanis are of mixed ethnic origin — the oldest element coming from indigenous peoples of eastern Transcaucasia (and possibly the Medians of northern Persia) — who were Persianized under the Sāsānian dynasty; Turkicization began with the Seljuq conquest in the 11th century and continued in subsequent centuries.

• Encyclopaedia Iranica

vii.The Iranian Language of Azerbaijan, The spread of Turkish in Azerbaijan paragraph

Summary: The later spread of Turkish and gradual replacement / shift of language from Iranian to Turkish forms over time — not instantaneous or full population replacement.

• Balanovsky et al., 2011

Abstract paragraph, 5th line to 11th line. search: We found a different major haplogroup to be prevalent in each of four sets of populations that occupy distinct geographic regions and belong …

Summary: This study found that many indigenous Caucasus populations show Y-chromosomal lineages tracing back to Near Eastern / older populations, along with correlations between language and lineage, which supports that population history is mixed and not solely defined by recent Turkic migrations.

• Agdzhoyan et al., 2023

Abstract paragraph, 3rd to 5th line. search: The analysis of genetic distances among 18 populations (N = 2216) representing Nakh-Dagestani, Altaic, and …

Introduction paragraph, 60th to 62nd line. search: the absence of a substantial Cen-tral Asian component and the genetic similarity of Azerbaijanis to …

Conclusions paragraph, 116th to 119th line. search: There is a genetic similarity between all Azerbaijani populations (0.03 < đ < 0.21, Figure 3N–O) and …

Conclusions paragraph, 123rd to 131st line. search: Overall, the gene pool of the East Caucasus is represented by three main patterns: Dagestani, Iranian, and …

Conclusions paragraph, 117th to 122nd line. search: The Azerbaijani gene pool (Figure 3N–O) is similar to that of Iranian-speaking peoples of the …

Summary: Agdzhoyan et al. (2023) analysed Y-chromosome data from 18 East-Caucasus populations and identified three main paternal-lineage components — Dagestani, Iranian (West-Asian) and Steppe. Azerbaijani groups cluster primarily with the Iranian/West-Asian component, while the Steppe (Central-Asian) signal is present but not predominant. The authors interpret these layers as formed in different historical periods, consistent with a model of local continuity plus later arrivals (language-shift / elite-dominance) rather than wholesale population replacement.

All four references are reliable: Encyclopaedia Britannica and Encyclopaedia Iranica are established secondary sources, and both Balanovsky et al. (2011) and Agdzhoyan et al. (2023) are peer-reviewed genetic studies published in respected scientific journals. Sinatruth (talk) 18:24, 17 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks — I want to end the circular debate and move to a verifiable, source-based outcome.

I propose the following conservative, source-attributed wording for the lead (which reflects the secondary sources I cited: Encyclopaedia Britannica; Encyclopaedia Iranica; Balanovsky 2011; Agdzhoyan 2023):

"Azerbaijanis are a Turkic-speaking people who live primarily in the Republic of Azerbaijan and northwestern Iran. Reliable secondary sources describe their origins as mixed, with an older Iranian/Caucasian substratum that was later influenced by Turkic migrations."

If you disagree with that wording, please cite a reliable secondary source (full citation or link plus exact location/quote) that explicitly supports the claim that Azerbaijanis are predominantly descended from Central Asian Turks. If no such reliable source is provided, the appropriate course is to adopt the source-attributed wording above.

If disagreement continues despite the cited sources, let's escalate to a neutral mechanism (WP:THIRDOPINION or a brief RFC) so an uninvolved editor can weigh the evidence and prevent further unproductive back-and-forth. Sinatruth (talk) 23:21, 17 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discussing whether Azerbaijanis are a Turkic people or not is neither ridiculous nor pointless.

I have researched the literature and have not found a reliable secondary source that explicitly describes Azerbaijanis as predominantly descended from Central Asian Turks. What I and major reference works do find is that Azerbaijanis are Turkic-speaking — i.e. their language and much of their culture are Turkic — but that many high-quality sources also describe an older Iranic/Caucasian substratum and later Turkicisation of the region. Those are two separate claims: language/cultural family ≠ exclusive ancestry.

On identity: Azerbaijanis are an ethnic group in their own right and most people who belong to the group self-identify as Azerbaijanis (Azeris). Many also identify culturally as Turkic/Turkic-speaking. Identity and ancestry are related but not identical, and the lead should reflect what reliable secondary sources actually say. Sinatruth (talk) 12:40, 20 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks — I appreciate the discussion, but I need to restate the position succinctly and with reference to the sources so we can focus on the evidence.

• Summary of my position (and why it’s supported by reliable sources):

1. The proposed wording summarizes what major secondary sources actually say.

Encyclopaedia Britannica and Encyclopaedia Iranica both describe Azerbaijanis as Turkic-speaking but explicitly state that their ancestry reflects older Iranic/Caucasian populations that were later Turkicized. See Britannica (second paragraph) and Iranica (vii. "The Iranian Language of Azerbaijan", The spread of Turkish in Azerbaijan). (Britannica; Iranica.)

2. Peer-reviewed genetic studies corroborate a mixed/layered picture — they do not support a simple “predominantly Central Asian Turkic” claim.

Agdzhoyan et al. (2023) identify three paternal components in the East Caucasus (Dagestani, Iranian, Steppe) and report that Azerbaijani groups cluster primarily with the Iranian/West-Asian component while the Steppe/Central-Asian signal is present but not predominant. Balanovsky et al. (2011) show Near-Eastern/Caucasus continuity and an association of genetic patterns with geography and language, consistent with long-term local continuity plus later linguistic/cultural shifts. (Agdzhoyan 2023; Balanovsky 2011.) Note: genetics here is presented as supporting/corroborating evidence, not as a standalone claim about identity.

3. Therefore the concise, source-attributed lead I proposed — that Azerbaijanis are "Turkic-speaking… of mixed origins, with an older Iranian/Caucasian substratum later influenced by Turkic migrations" — accurately paraphrases mainstream reliable literature.

It does not assert single-origin descent, nor does it reduce identity to genetics. It attributes claims about origins to reliable secondary sources.

• Policy points (brief):

WP:RS — the works cited (Britannica; Iranica; peer-reviewed genetic studies) are reliable secondary/academic sources.

WP:DUE — summarising what those sources say is appropriate for a balanced lead; omitting the substratum would be an undue simplification of the secondary literature.

WP:SYNTH — is not implicated here because I am paraphrasing conclusions that the cited secondary sources themselves make (Britannica/Iranica state a substratum + later Turkicisation; genetics papers document patterns consistent with that model). Paraphrasing those documented claims is acceptable summarisation, not original research.

Answers to frequent objections raised in this thread:

- “Turkic peoples are diverse / ‘Turkic’ doesn’t imply single origin.” — Agreed. That is why the lead should say “Turkic-speaking” (language/identity) and also note the mixed ancestry. Saying “Azerbaijanis are Turkic” is true but incomplete; Britannica itself gives a fuller account. - “Genetics doesn’t prove origins.” — Correct. That is why I rely on high-quality secondary sources (Britannica, Iranica) and use genetics only as supporting evidence, with methodological caveats (e.g. Y-chromosome studies describe paternal-line patterns). Presenting genetics as corroboration — not as the sole argument — is consistent with WP policy. - “This is WP:UNDUE / WP:SYNTH.” — Not when the same conclusions (mixed origin; language shift) are explicitly present in the cited secondary sources. If anyone thinks Britannica or Iranica have been misread, please quote the exact paragraph that contradicts my summary. also about the The Turkic Peoples in World History book you talked about, unfortunately I do not currently have access to the full book, but based on the excerpt you provided, it does not state that that Azerbaijanis are a purely Turkic ethnic group. Instead, it supports the same point I am making

• They descend partly from Turkmens (Turkic).
• They also descend from Turkicized Persian speakers (Iranic).

== Final note ==

• Proposed change: replace "Turkic ethnic group" in the lead with wording that treats Azerbaijanis as an ethnic group who are Turkic-speaking and whose origins are mixed.
• Reason: Major secondary sources (Encyclopaedia Britannica; Encyclopaedia Iranica) and recent peer-reviewed genetic studies describe Azerbaijanis as Turkic-speakers while emphasising an older Iranian/Caucasian substratum and later Turkic (Oghuz) influence. The suggested wording avoids conflating language with exclusive ancestry, summarises what the cited sources say, and therefore better reflects the reliable literature. (Sources: Britannica; Iranica; Balanovsky et al. 2011; Agdzhoyan et al. 2023.)
• References cited for verification: Encyclopaedia Britannica (Azerbaijani people); Encyclopaedia Iranica (AZERBAIJAN — §vii “The Iranian Language of Azerbaijan”); Balanovsky et al. 2011 (Molecular Biology and Evolution); Agdzhoyan et al. 2023 (Genes)

Sinatruth (talk) 01:10, 20 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]