Talk:Siege of Carthage (Third Punic War)

Casualties too high

I am new to Wikipedia editing and so don't want to do this myself, but I suggest amending the "Causalities and Losses" sidebar in the "Siege of Carthage" page from 450,000 killed to 150,000 killed and replacing the source with Ben Kiernan, “The First Genocide: Carthage, 146 BC,” Diogenes 51.3 (2004), 27, link at https://gsp.yale.edu/sites/default/files/first_genocide.pdf

Any casualty figure for an ancient battle is a guess, but Kiernan's is much more reasonable and better sourced, and Diogenes is a peer-reviewed jouurnal. The current figure of 450,000 seems to have been arrived at by deducting Roman reports of 50,000 slaves taken from a guess at the pre-destruction population of 500,000--not a good way to do it. UofTprof (talk) 13:24, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'd agree with this. From what I can gather, the source of the casualty numbers is:
"The Romans plundered the city (Scipio took nothing for himself) and utterly demolished it. The 50,000 survivors of Carthage, all that remained of a presiege population of 500,000, were sold as slaves." (pg. 67)
That excerpt is from Spencer Tucker's Battles That Changed History: An Encyclopedia of World Conflict. The casualty numbers on Wikipedia are not reflected in that work, nor are the reflected in the sources referenced by that work. I checked Adrian Goldsworthy's The Punic Wars (A reference in Tucker's work) and could not corroborate numbers.
I don't have the confidence to edit the article, but I would agree with adjusting the figures based on some research. 2601:346:E80:FE7:1DA5:DCE6:8780:54D7 (talk) 04:45, 25 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 11 July 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. There was no support for a move to Siege of Carthage (149–146 BC). Three editors proposed to alternatively move to Siege of Carthage, arguing the the Third Punic War is the WP:PTOPIC. However the alternative proposal did not gain a consensus, with P Aculeius rebutting the claim that it was the PTOPIC. (closed by non-admin page mover) TarnishedPathtalk 12:09, 4 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]


Siege of Carthage (Third Punic War)Siege of Carthage (149–146 BC)Siege of Carthage (149–146 BC) – More appropriate to use years rather than the war that the battle was part of in the article title. 2600:1700:6180:6290:4400:57AB:965F:551B (talk) 13:01, 11 July 2025 (UTC) — Relisting.  ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ () 07:47, 21 July 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. TarnishedPathtalk 08:31, 28 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose – More appropriate per what policy? Yue🌙 19:40, 13 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
If we are to move this, it should be to Siege of Carthage where it is probably the primary topic. Siege of Carthage currently redirects to the disambiguation page Battle of Carthage; the only other article called "Siege of Carthage" is the much more obscure Siege of Carthage (536). There's also Siege of Carthage (Mercenary War) but that doesn't even merit its own article (and even the main Mercenary War article only gets about half the pageviews of Siege of Carthage (Third Punic War)). I would oppose disambiguating with a date; "Third Punic War" is a much clearer disambiguation to everyone who doesn't remember the dates of the various Punic Wars offhand – which I expect to be virtually everyone in the world. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 20:49, 13 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Relisting comment: There is insufficient participation yet to establish a consensus. People should also consider whether to support the idea of making this page the primary topic. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ () 07:47, 21 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Military history/Roman and Byzantine military history task force, WikiProject Tunisia, WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome, WikiProject Africa, WikiProject Phoenicia, and WikiProject Military history have been notified of this discussion. TarnishedPathtalk 08:28, 28 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. "Third Punic War" in parentheses gives the reader the context of the siege, it is a name known to readers with a passing familiarity with the topic as "Punic wars" are taught in history classes. TurboSuperA+(talk) 08:41, 28 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lean oppose. While there's nothing wrong with the proposed title, the existing one is more recognizable; readers cannot be expected to remember in what years the siege (or battle) took place. I'm not aware of any convention requiring all such articles to use years as disambiguation, and because the purpose of disambiguation is to make Wikipedia easier to navigate, the current title seems preferable. P Aculeius (talk) 11:51, 28 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move to Siege of Carthage as WP:PRIMARYTOPIC with hatnotes for Battle of Carthage and Siege of Carthage (536).--Staberinde (talk) 20:01, 28 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree with Staberinde: move to Siege of Carthage as primary topic. Ifly6 (talk) 14:08, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: one concern raised here is that "siege of" and "battle of" are used somewhat interchangeably in the case of Carthage; "Battle of Carthage" is a disambiguation page listing eight separate engagements known variously as "sieges" or "battles", mostly involving ancient Carthage, though two involve Carthages in India and Missouri. I would have expected the Battle of Zama and perhaps one or more of the engagements fought along the coast near Carthage during the First Punic War to have been included as well, since readers might not recall the various names assigned to them (not all of which are consistently used). While this siege of Carthage gets the most page views of the eight conflicts included on that page, it doesn't garner more page views than all of the others put together—somewhat fewer if you add in the other conflicts that people might actually be searching for. So I don't believe there is a primary topic for "Siege of Carthage". Readers searching for this could be looking for any of a dozen different battles, some of which are of equal historical importance. P Aculeius (talk) 16:09, 31 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.