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The term 'Greater Kurdistan' keeps popping up on Kurdistan-related article. Does anyone know who uses this term, or where it comes from? Currently it redirects to this article, but I believe it could make a good article in its own right, for showing the more ambitious Kurdish nationalist plans, e.g. those with a Kurdish state having coasts on both the Mediterranean Sea and Indian Ocean. Konli17 (talk) 14:11, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is another Kurdish propaganda that has no merit to be entertained here. Mediterranean Sea and Indian Ocean? How funny! Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 15:03, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Have you never seen Kurdish nationalist maps that propose this? Konli17 (talk) 15:12, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The “Greater” simply speaks to the fact that it is the ‘whole’ of all the parts (the 4 regions), similar to how Great Britain is used (for England, Scotland, and Wales), or even more specifically other areas such as Greater Albania, Greater Armenia, Greater Iran, Greater China, Greater Romania etc.  Redthoreau -- (talk) 17:51, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've always understood 'Greater' (when used in this context) to refer to irredentist ambitions, usually based on historical regions. The first of the three examples you give using 'Greater' is explicit about this irredentism; Great Britain isn't relevant here as its 'Great' came from the French term, to distinguish it from Brittany (Gran Bretagne/Bretagne). For me, use of the term 'Greater Kurdistan' projects the irredentism of the states that control Kurdistan onto Kurdish aspirations i.e., that Kurdish nationalists seek to dominate some of their neighbours who live outside Kurdish areas by incorporating them into a Kurdish state against their will. There are other ways to express the different meanings of Kurdistan than this phrase. Konli17 (talk) 13:19, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Konli17, It is quite possible that when some use “Greater Kurdistan” they mean it in an irredentist way, however I would also argue it serves a practical function. Namely, to refer to the potential entity encompassing all 4 directional regions and denote that you are meaning the “whole” of Kurdistan, and not solely any one part the speaker might be speaking of. A person in Erbil might say “I am in Kurdistan” and only mean “I am in the Kurdistan region of Iraq” (for instance), or they may mean “I am in the wider geo-cultural entity of Kurdistan as popularly conceived amongst most Kurds”, or they could mean “I am in the wider not yet existing entity (politically at least) of an independent Kurdistan comprising all 4 parts, which by the way should exist” – which has a much larger intended meaning. But beyond this, "Greater Kurdistan" is used as an alternative name in the lead because the reliable utilized reference does so, and that term redirects to this article as well. When someone says or writes "Greater Kurdistan" (a common term easily found in many sources), they mean what this article is talking about, i.e. the larger 4 region Kurdish entity. As editors we are not here to argue whether such an entity is justified or not, but merely note its linguistic existence.  Redthoreau -- (talk) 06:55, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree it has this practical function, but given the association of 'Greater' with expansionist nationalism, I'd prefer another formula and have a problem with the prominence given this one. To me, 'Greater Kurdistan' summons an image of the more ambitious maps of Kurdistan, those with coasts on the Indian Ocean and Mediterranean. Konli17 (talk) 14:22, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:

• HEP-logo.png (discussion)
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Participate in the deletion discussions at the nomination pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:10, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In the lead, after "geo-cultural territory", can we add in Western Asia for further clarification?2603:8081:160A:BE2A:75FA:DE60:5BDC:ECA2 (talk) 22:27, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Done, and thank you very much for the article improvement! P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 00:10, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kurds are known for their honesty, courage, commitment, and hospitality. Mohitchairu (talk) 20:50, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Terasail^[Talk] 21:11, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Semsûrî seems determined to include the idea of Kurdistansky Uyezd (“Red Kurdistan”) into the modern conception of Kurdistan, based on its 1923-1929 existence; however I feel this does not line up with the majority of reliable sources. First, there are very few Kurds left in that area following Soviet deportations in the 1930s and 40s, and the area is not connected to the other 4 regions based on cardinal compass directions. While I believe it is notable enough to include mention of “Red Kurdistan” in the lead as a historical example of an administrative area controlled by Kurds in the 20th century (along with the Republic of Mahabad which Semsûrî keeps reverting out for some reason), I don’t see justification for making the reader believe that there is any kind of attempt to resurrect “Red Kurdistan” or include "southern Transcaucasia" territory within Azerbaijan or Armenia as part of Kurdistan in the present day.  Redthoreau -- (talk) 17:11, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You base your edit on your baseless claims, that's the problem. First of all, you write ' based on its 1923-1929 existence ' but that's not true. Kurds lived in that region all the way up to the 1990s until they were expelled by Armenian forces during the war with Azerbaijan.[1] The text simply defined the boundaries of Kurdistan, nothing about Kurdish irredentism also including Caucasus-territory. --Semsûrî (talk) 18:13, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Semsûrî, an area having any Kurdish population is not the only variable for being perceived as part of Kurdistan generally in the modern era. For instance, there are large Kurdish populations (also by %) in central Turkey, Istanbul, and Khorasan Province in NE Iran, but these areas are also not usually included in the wider conception of Kurdistan (based on several factors, including them not being congruously connected) to the four main regions (N,S,E,W). Parts of Azerbaijan or Armenia are not often included in maps of Kurdistan in the present day. However, yes, it is notable to mention “Red Kurdistan” and its historical existence, along with the others I have recently added (Ararat, Kingdom etc) in my recent additions. The dispute we are having is that you are contending that the majority of sources consider “Red Kurdistan” to be part of a present-day notion of Kurdistan. I think that would need to be proven here in the TP as it does not line up with the majority of the sources in my view.  Redthoreau -- (talk) 18:36, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Redthoreau: I'm not referring to Kurdish enclaves nor am I claiming that cities like Istanbul or Ankara are Kurdistan. However, Kurdistan does in fact stretch into the South Caucasus (which this map also vaguely notes[2]) and moreover from West Azerbaijan Province into Nakhchivan. The only reason "Red Kurdistan" was mentioned in parenthesis in my version is due to the fact that it is/was the largest Kurdish community in the whole Caucasus region and thus a note for readers. If your main issue is the mentioning of Red Kurdistan, we can easily solve it by removing it from the sentence that defines the geography of Kurdistan. However, areas in South Caucasus are in fact connected to Kurdish-populated areas in Turkey and I still believe that should at least be mentioned. Even if Kurds explicitly refrain from claiming the areas in South Caucasus in their quest for independence. --Semsûrî (talk) 18:58, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Semsûrî:, if your contention is that Transcaucasia or the South Caucasus (I'm not sure which you prefer) is universally seen as a 5th region of Kurdistan currently, and that it should be noted, I think that could be possible. However, I remain unconvinced that the majority of sources consider it so. What are some of the sources you’re using to base that off of? And what wording do you believe would fix your concern? For instance, if the lead sentence said:

Contemporary use of the term refers primarily to the following four areas: southeastern Turkey (Northern Kurdistan), northern Syria (Western Kurdistan), northern Iraq (Southern Kurdistan), and northwestern Iran (Eastern Kurdistan), and to a less degree the South Caucasus.

Would this be enough? As "Red Kurdistan" is already mentioned elsewhere in the lead. Or do you think there should be no delineation from the 4 cardinal direction regions (N,S,E,W) and the South Caucasus?  Redthoreau -- (talk) 05:43, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Redthoreau: I'm not fond of the wording Contemporary use to be honest. What about: Kurdistan roughly encompasses southeastern Turkey, northern Syria, northern Iraq and northwestern Iran.^[1] Other definitions include parts of southern Transcaucasia.^[2]?

Encyclopaedia of Islam excludes Caucasus, while World Encyclopedia by Oxford University Press includes it and quotes are present.--Semsûrî (talk)

@Semsûrî:, the reason I think ‘contemporary’ is helpful, is that the spatial conception of Kurdistan is fluid (like most areas that experience war, invasion, migration etc), and it establishes that these are the currently perceived regions. This places the burden of sourcing only in the present day, and not on whether a certain area was considered “Kurdistan” 150 years ago etc – which seems to be where much of the Talk Page disputes arrive from on the various Kurdish-related regions.

However, placing 'contemporary' aside, and using your wording as the basis, I think I would adapt it to:

Kurdistan generally encompasses the following four areas: southeastern Turkey (Northern Kurdistan), northern Iraq (Southern Kurdistan), northwestern Iran (Eastern Kurdistan), and northern Syria (Western Kurdistan). Some definitions also include parts of southern Transcaucasia.

I would use “generally” rather than “roughly” (which appears twice in the first lead paragraph already), and “some” rather than “other” since not all do as you display, and adjust the listed order to match the N,S,E,W order found in the infobox. Your thoughts?  Redthoreau -- (talk) 23:33, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Redthoreau: I can support that quote but don't know if the N,S,E,W in parenthesis is needed at all when its already mentioned in the infobox. --Semsûrî (talk) 00:23, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Semsûrî:, I believe the N,S,E,W are necessary because they help the reader conceptualize why and how these 4 regions fit together to make the whole (since many may not be geographically aware how these relate to one another). In fact, I would contend it is potentially the most important detail of the entire lead in understanding what makes up Kurdistan for a novice to the topic.  Redthoreau -- (talk) 00:42, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Redthoreau: Alright, the sentence should be changed to the second quote then. --Semsûrî (talk) 11:46, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Semsûrî:, ok. I have done so.  Redthoreau -- (talk) 20:53, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]