{{Controversial}} should not be used on pages subject to the contentious topic procedure. Please remove this template.

Template:Annual readership

This article has not yet been rated on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Anarchism This article is within the scope of WikiProject Anarchism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of anarchism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AnarchismWikipedia:WikiProject AnarchismTemplate:WikiProject Anarchismanarchism Open tasks: Black Lives Matter Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Black Lives Matter, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Black Lives Matter on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Black Lives MatterWikipedia:WikiProject Black Lives MatterTemplate:WikiProject Black Lives MatterBlack Lives Matter Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale. Cooperatives (inactive) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Cooperatives, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.CooperativesWikipedia:WikiProject CooperativesTemplate:WikiProject CooperativesCooperatives Micronations Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Micronations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Micronations on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MicronationsWikipedia:WikiProject MicronationsTemplate:WikiProject MicronationsMicronations Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Socialism Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Socialism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of socialism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SocialismWikipedia:WikiProject SocialismTemplate:WikiProject Socialismsocialism Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. United States: Washington / Seattle Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Washington (assessed as Low-importance). This article is supported by WikiProject Washington - Seattle (assessed as Mid-importance). Urban studies and planning Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Urban studies and planning, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Urban studies and planning on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Urban studies and planningWikipedia:WikiProject Urban studies and planningTemplate:WikiProject Urban studies and planningUrban studies and planning Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Template:WPUS50

I believe this may warrant an entry on the article. The inclusion or exclusion of news coverage regarding CHOP, even news that can be considered critically important, varies strikingly between US news organisations depending on their political affiliation. https://www.foxnews.com/media/seattle-chop-violence-media-insisted-peaceful 86.93.208.34 (talk) 01:16, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe - let's see how it develops. Ed6767 talk! 01:17, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fox News focuses on what it calls "spin" by The Seattle Times, making it "perhaps the most egregious when it came to celebrating the cop-free area." Our Wikipedia page relies heavily on The Seattle Times, which accounts for 18% of our references (32 of 177). If we editors have succumbed to spin, this article will require a significant overhaul to comply with WP:NPOV. NedFausa (talk) 02:11, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree and see no logical correlation between the news source and your inferred conclusion. Your worry that the Wikipedia article will require significant overhaul if we are to question “The Seattle Times” is false logic. The wikipedia CHOP page is created by editors who weigh all reputable sources and therefore cancel out any potential inherent bias of using only one source. This is proven by the fact that “The Seattle Times” only accounts for 18% of the sources used, far from a “significant” percentage. The editors have therefore not succumbed to spin and there is no need to overhaul the article.

The allegation in the source of some media channels “picking and choosing” which news to publish on CHOP and which to hide are easily verified. The absence of negative news articles on CHOP (including violence, shooting, murder, even its dissolution) on CNN and MSNBC front pages, are noteworthy.

If this political censorship reaches a level that garners attention, it may need to be reflected in the article. 86.93.208.34 (talk) 04:30, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fox News literally Photoshopped pictures of the CHOP [1]. Why should they be taken as arbiters of who is biased? Moreover, the allegations of media bias in the aforelinked are recapitulations of claims from NewsBusters and the Media Research Center, essentially propaganda outfits deemed generally unreliable by Wikipedia consensus. Nor have the Seattle Times — or any local media that have reported at any substantial length about the event — flinched away from the violence that took place. XOR'easter (talk) 04:58, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

But MSNBC and CNN are totally reliable and unbiased and not by any stretch of the imagination essentially propaganda outfits? Hahahahaha! They’ve both been that for at least the past four years. Boscaswell talk 03:01, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to agree. In terms of political news we should try seeking out alternative sources. CNN, Fox, CBC etc have shown extreme bias as of late.Even the general public has started noticing. Kysier (talk) 23:15, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

These protest events are complex and often not a matter being either/or, i.e., either peaceful or violent, either they generated needed dialog or engaged in pointless destruction. Rather the protests are, in fact, BOTH/AND, both peaceful and violent, they both generated needed dialog and engaged in pointless destruction - which is why it is genuinely hard work to act as a Wikipedia editor to carefully read large amounts of material and then distribute WEIGHT accordingly.

Thankfully, there are nearly always alternatives to CNN and FOX, the latter of whom made the news itself for poor quality reporting on the CHOP as they photoshopped a fabricated composite image of a man with a rifle as part of their news coverage (a totally appalling act for a news outlet and not unlike a tabloid might do!). Later in their coverage of CHOP, one of the FOX reporters got into a conflict with a group of activists near the zone who then hassled and boxed the reporter in, demanding an apology, which also appeared in the news cycle. Earlier this year, FOX ran aground when trying to report the news recently in Washington DC.. The Seattle Times inevitably, has some inherent bias, as with all organizations, yet it has somehow managed to avoid photoshopping images for its stories.

The CBC generally does solid reporting on par with the BBC, and has high credibility for their factual reporting. Not sure what the source is for the "extreme bias" mentioned about the them above. CBC has a bit of distance from the US and are not as enamored with American culture, which can provide some objectivity and useful perspective, especially when things get whipped up into a frenzy frothy down here during an election year. Kind Regards, Cedar777 (talk) 01:11, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fox News has apparently been under review at Wikipedia during June/July with a modification to their reliability status. WP:RSP The result has been a downgrade but the details are still being finalized. Posting this for anyone else who may be unaware, (though it's likely I am the only one not following the relevant pages). Kind Regards, Cedar777 (talk) 16:47, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The government in Anarchist. Someone should add that. Nitric Acidd (talk) 01:53, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"The government in anarchist?" Nah. Personally, I don't think the article is worthy of its own entry on Wikipedia either.--Kieronoldham (talk) 02:25, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

African American Antonio Mays Jr was the victim.^[1] Reaper7 (talk) 15:54, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Cited source does not identify race of victim, which I have removed from our article. NedFausa (talk) 16:16, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Update. I found a reference to identify victim's race, and added it to our article. NedFausa (talk) 16:36, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've posted under talk before but it's been a while. Under the "Background" section in this article it lists Capitol Hill as being in "Downtown" Seattle. I live a couple of blocks from CHAZ/CHOP on Capitol Hill and it is very much not "Downtown". In fact, the Wikipedia article about Capitol Hill claims it is "just east of the city's downtown central business district". Capitol Hill is east of I-5 and downtown is west of I-5. Since there's no "Edit" option for the "Background" section I'm not sure how else to correct this. I believe describing Capitol Hill as "just outside of downtown Seattle" or "northeast of downtown Seattle" would be valid. EDIT: You could even call it "central Seattle" but it's just not downtown. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill,_Seattle — Preceding unsigned comment added by Douglasm69 (talk • contribs) 07:16, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I have modified that sentence to bring it in line with the description in the Capitol Hill, Seattle article. There isn't an "edit" option because the article is currently semi-protected, meaning that it can only be edited by users whose accounts are at least four days old and who have made at least ten edits. This is a fairly common precautionary measure for articles that attract drive-by vandalism, including controversial current events that are much in the media spotlight. XOR'easter (talk) 07:53, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Local governance in the zone was decentralized, with the goal of creating a neighborhood without police."

Unless I'm missing something this really could do with re-casting, and probably reframing. It's not clear what it's trying to say, or what it says.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough 01:27, 5 July 2020 (UTC).[reply]

@Rich Farmbrough:, I agree that wording in the lede and the entire Internal Governance section needs to be more fully researched and rewritten. This seems to go along with addressing leadership (another section below), a contested issue that involved several individuals and a handful of loosely defined groups that had temporary webpages and twitter accounts. Singular leadership was deemphasized, but there were a few names that came up more than once.

Challenges also exist for finding the protesters concrete demands in actual RS, not just on Medium, and how they evolved over the three week period of CHOP. Perhaps its worth compiling a list of sources specifically addressing these issues here in talk, or in a new section. Kind Regards, Cedar777 (talk) 23:48, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The possibility has been raised before, with no firm consensus emerging, but that was multiple weeks ago. To my eye, the coverage since then seemingly settled upon "CHOP" as the common term, with "Capitol Hill Organized Protest" the preferred expansion. What do the folks here think? XOR'easter (talk) 15:31, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support moving the article to CHOP for Capitol Hill Organized Protest as this was the most commonly used name after the first week. Better to have CHAZ as a redirect. The CHAZ/CHOP was an entity for approximately three weeks, two weeks of which it went by the modified name CHOP. There was a lag until some of the media outlets made the change but it is clearly documented in the article as an agreed upon choice by the majority of demonstrators made on June 13. Thanks and Kind Regards, Cedar777 (talk) 05:35, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: please use the procedure outlined at WP:RM. Are you proposing CHOP? StAnselm (talk) 15:47, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wanted to sound out the idea and find if there would be any support at all before starting the whole WP:RM process, with the templates and all (and to see if I'll have a contiguous block of available wiki-editing time this week...). A more detailed proposal will be forthcoming, I hope. XOR'easter (talk) 17:20, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know where KOMO-TV gets its information, but Toese has been long associated with a group based in Vancouver, Washington known as Patriot Prayer. I know this because this scumbag group has been an annoyance in Portland, insisting that, although as welcome as a COVID-19 outbreak, they exercise their "Freedom of Speech" in our city, & Toese is one of the most prominent members. His association with Patriot Prayer is attested in these sources: Willamette Week, 12 September 2017; Willamette Week, 24 May 2018; Willamette Week, 20 February 2019; Oregon Public Broadcasting, 23 June 2020; & countless other sources which I'd be happy to share here. Reliable sources have been known to be wrong. Besides, he's not Caucasian, so Proud Boys would not be eager to let him join, no matter how well he abstains from masturbation. Unfortunately, Toese belongs to this local RWNJ group -- not the better known RWNJ group, Proud Boys, although he has probably associated with them. -- llywrch (talk) 03:31, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Slowly learning more about Patriot Prayer, Proud Boys, and in particular, Toese who has apparently been covered by news media for his activities in the Pacific NW for several years now. From the WW articles linked above, he seems to have a pattern of associating with individuals from both groups: Proud Boys and Patriot Prayer. From what I can gather, Patriot Prayer is a regional group more specifically linked to the Pacific Northwest while the Proud Boys are both more widely known and distributed with classification as a hate group by Southern Poverty Law Center.

It may be worth concisely summarizing his notoriety, and the history of law enforcement enabling him for a time, in order to contextualize what his appearance at CHOP meant to activists at the site. There are several other articles that specifically cover his involvement with CHOP that I will make an effort to add in another comment. Kind Regards, Cedar777 (talk) 08:58, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Llywrch: It appears Toese, who a number of reliable sources report as associating with both groups, made a public announcemnet of his change over to the Proud Boys, sometime before February 2019, according to this report. Cedar777 (talk) 03:42, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

According to this KIRO7 report:

suspect-arrested-near-i-5-downtown-seattle-after-fleeing-police

• SEATTLE — Seattle police on Thursday arrested a prominent leader of CHOP, the protest zone they cleared Wednesday.
• Multiple sources identified the man arrested after a brief chase from Capitol Hill to I-5 as a protest leader known as River.
• He was among the CHOP leaders who met with Mayor Jenny Durkan last week.

So, there is at least one other leader, "River." This man has been in the media in reference to CHAZ described as its leader, in one story confronting Seattle activist Andre Taylor (founder of the Seattle based group, Not This Time, www.notthistime.global) and in other reports is shown leading internal rallies in the capitol zone. There are at least three media sources referencing him as a CHAZ leader such as the Seattle Times and KOMO-TV news. Would adding to the section Internal Governance, besides the sentence naming Raz Simone, another reference to this man, River, be prudent?

Thanks for any comments. This is Wikipedia. Please participate.

Keep up the good work. 172.250.237.36 (talk) 11:52, 17 July 2020 (UTC) בס״ד[reply]

Naming additional individuals who had some kind of leadership role is, in principle, fine; however, we must be careful to distinguish between those who led an individual protest event (e.g., marched at the front of a single specific march), those with a greater organizational role, and those who get tagged "leader" in some media coverage simply because it is a convenient designation for an identifiable public face who is willing to go on television. XOR'easter (talk) 17:27, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We have settled on the duration of Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone from June 8, 2020–July 1, 2020. However, protests in the area have continued, as reported by multiple sources that we cited in documenting the occupation. On July 20, for example, MyNorthwest.com reported:

Police say 12 officers were injured, several businesses damaged, and two people arrested during a large demonstration that began in downtown Seattle on Sunday. ...
The group made its way up to Capitol Hill where police say people committed more property damage and looting. A fire was set inside one of the businesses after the windows were busted out. Several people smashed the front windows at the East Precinct. Someone threw a large, mortar-type firework inside the precinct's lobby, causing a small fire. It was quickly extinguished.
Once at Cal Anderson Park, the group of demonstrators dispersed.

My question is: should these protests be included in our article? CHAZ/CHOP sprang from and existed within a larger sociopolitical context, which it then profoundly affected. Subsequent demonstrations on Capitol Hill, particularly involving the East Precinct, may in part comprise the occupation zone's legacy. To ignore that seems unencyclopedic. NedFausa (talk) 17:01, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In the 11 hours since I created this talk page section, there has been another development that illustrates the need for continuing coverage past July 1, 2020. Donnitta Sinclair, mother of Lorenzo Anderson, the 19-year-old man shot dead in the zone on June 20, has filed a wrongful death claim against the city of Seattle, alleging that city officials created a dangerous environment and failed to provide medical help to her son as he lay dying. Her claim, reports KOMO-TV, "is the first step toward a lawsuit that she plans to file against the city of Seattle. Under state law, a claim must be filed 60 days before filing a lawsuit." Obviously this relates to CHAZ. Just as obviously, it's unlikely to be resolved anytime soon. How do we deal with this? NedFausa (talk) 04:04, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I had contemplated writing an "Aftermath" section of some sort, since I'd seen some retrospective coverage (here's a browser tab I had open, which led to this item on the wrongful death claim you mention). I'm a bit concerned that the article, which is already on the bulky side, could become a catalogue of every protest happening in the Seattle area, but that's an issue we can face when we come to it, I suppose. XOR'easter (talk) 04:33, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You're right to resist cataloging every protest in Seattle, and of course we should not do so in this article. However, when a violent protest on Capitol Hill targets the East Precinct, or when Lorenzo Anderson's mom files a wrongful death claim against the city, it's clear that our task of documenting CHAZ is not done. NedFausa (talk) 04:47, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Though a bit of sifting through the reports on, for want of a better term, local politicking will be necessary to find the items that are pertinent here, rather than to area protests more generally. XOR'easter (talk) 04:56, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I concur these issues are pertinent. Both the successive vandalism and riots, the wrongful death claim, are pertinent. Additionally, the case of Horace Lorenzo Anderson Jr. and his father's claim that the Mayor, J. Durkan, has not made any condolence call (yet actually President Trump did call him) is an issue ^[1] that should be noted in the article. The fatal shootings were crucial in making the Mayor aware that this situation had to be shut down. Keep up the good work. בס״ד 172.250.237.36 (talk) 05:04, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support the inclusion of the aftermath section w/ some additional content, provided it is well aligned with CHOP. Aware there are several reports of other cities in the US that engaged with similar actions (brief in duration). A few events with a strong connection to CHOP are worth a mention, in particular the group of marchers who regularly gathered in the zone, were also the ones run down by a car on I-5 on July 4, killing one and severely injuring another of them.

Portland has its own page for the lengthy protests whereas Seattle currently does not (only a section in WA state and the CHOP). It may require one eventually. Kind Regards, Cedar777 (talk) 05:07, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've added a "see also George Floyd protests in Washington (state)" so there's at least that much of a pointer to the more general context. I followed the I-5 incident [2][3] but don't have reporting on hand that directly states the marchers there were CHOP regulars. It's a natural inference, of course, but we shouldn't put that in print without explicit confirmation. XOR'easter (talk) 05:23, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Seattle has a separate page now. Agree that the July 4 event on I-5 is less clearly connected to CHOP than other actions, and that it and other events outside CHOP are better served on the new Seattle protest page. Cedar777 (talk) 06:41, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It should be noted that the executive order to end CHOP was issued by Jenny Durkin on the day after protestors marched to her house. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.72.173 (talk) 20:39, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Here are some additional stories that may merit inclusion into the CHOP article. Cedar777 (talk) 18:49, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• June 9 KUOW Woman in cardiac arest after being hit w/ blast ball

• June 12 BBC George Floyd: Trump told to back off Seattle's Chaz police-free zone

• June 15 Crosscut Black clergy voice strong support for Seattle Police chief

• June 17 BBC George Floyd protests: Who are Boogaloo Bois, antifa and Proud Boys?

• June 17 Crosscut The future of Capitol Hill’s protest zone may lie in Seattle history

• Jun 18 Seattle Eater What It’s Like to Eat Inside Seattle’s Much-Discussed Protest Space

• June 26 Crosscut Meet the citizen journalists inside Seattle's CHOP

• July 2 The Intercept Seattle's CHOP Went Out with Both a Bang and a Wimper

• July 18 Tech Crunch, For Seattle’s cop-free protest zone, tech is both a revolutionary asset and disastrous liability

• July 21 BBC Seattle sued by family of man killed in autonomous protest zone

Mt.FijiBoiz, There is a wealth of evidence in reliable sources that the main name in use is Capitol Hill Organized Protest. Review the inline citations for confirmation before you change things. I understand many have strong opinions regarding what this place was and what it "should" have been called. However, Wikipedia required reliable sources. Yes, there are still outliers calling it the other names, but the overwhelming majority setted on Capitol Hill Organized Protest. Cedar777 (talk) 22:22, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I still favor "CHAZ" its the original name, its what the founders called it, and I still see that in the news. Juno (talk) 18:30, 31 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]