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Using Google and Wayback you can find the exact term "modern sporting rifle" (or rifles plural) dating back to 1913 at the least (see: Western New England Magazine; Volume 3, No. 1). More recently, this term can be found in multiple books on firearms, magazine articles, marketing material, and other relevant publication throughout the 1990s and early 2000s. Clearly the entire claim (and implication) that the term was "created" in or "dated" to 2009 is demonstrably false. Also, close variations such as "modern sporting firearm" or "gun" have been in use long before 2009, as have "sporting rifle(s)". See also: vis-a-vis "classic sporting rifle". If there are no objections on merit, I propose to delete this provably false statement that reeks of politicized viewpoint or advocacy smear against the firearm industry. -- Brewster1971 (talk) 00:12, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In a way the 1866 Winchester developed from the 1860 Henry used by the Union Army in the America Civil War was a modern sporting rifle with a military heritage. (Well, it was modern for 1860s.) American sports shooters tend to sporterize military rifles in part because they are seen as more robust and easy to maintain than many civilian designs. Also military vets often see no need to relearn a weapons system (safety, handling, maintenance) just to take up recreational shooting target or hunting. Americans have a tradition of adapting the current military issue weapon to sporting purposes and the government through the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice, Director of Civilian Marksmanship, Civilian Marksmanship Program has actively promoted civilian possession and training with military arms. Countries that fear revolution have a history of banning civilian ownership of military rifles or even rifles of military caliber, but America has a tradition of the military relying on volunteerism in the face of national emergency and see civilian familiarity with issue arm as an asset and not a liability. Modern sporting rifles based on the current military issue rifle is just American. Like civilian Jeeps and Humvees. -- Naaman Brown (talk) 14:04, 28 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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I suspect Wikipedia is used to try an create language usage. Can someone please show sources that show that the term "Modern Sporting Rifle" is used anywhere nearly as much as "AR-15" and derivatives? - 91.10.1.207 (talk) 13:57, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Ha, good question, with a direct bearing on WP:COMMONNAME. Drmies (talk) 17:02, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• There are all sorts of technicalities involved, since "modern sporting rifle" and "AR-15 style rifle" aren't exactly the same thing depending on who you ask, but I agree that the latter would be a much better title given WP:COMMONNAME and the content of the article. ansh666 18:22, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Firearms. This page "...was created to define the term "Modern Sporting Rifle" which is most commonly associated with generic AR-15s." Whatever, else it does is happenstance. --RAF910 (talk) 18:29, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• I've boldly moved the article to AR-15 style rifle, which was previously a redirect to this article. This is the WP:COMMONNAME for this style of weapons. For sources, please see Slate article from 2016:

• Modern sporting rifle is a euphemism that the gun industry created in 2009 to describe modular semi-automatic rifles. The phrase is an artful attempt to recast weapons such as the MCX and the AR-15 (and its variants) as all-American toys. Never mind “quiet and deadly” and “close-quarters battle”: Modern sporting rifle conjures up images of aristocrats riding with their hounds, vacationers knocking clays out of the sky, and ruddy-faced athletes enjoying their autumns in Carhartt jackets and mud-spattered ATVs. The term is a genius act of marketing, meant to bring these deadly weapons into the mainstream and keep them there. It’s also disingenuous hokum that exists to cloud debate, like calling a used car “pre-owned.” Omar Mateen Had a “Modern Sporting Rifle”

Also here:

• Unlike fully automatic weapons — which have been almost completely banned in the U.S. for decades — the AR-15 and other rifles like it are semi-automatic, meaning a single press of the trigger fires one bullet. Other manufacturers, such as Smith & Wesson, list their versions of the AR-15 under the "modern sporting rifle" category. "AR-15s are not the problem, manufacturers say".
• Its versatility is part of what makes the AR-15 appealing. With the capability of shooting 30 rounds in a matter of seconds, the semi-automatic rifle is marketed by several gun groups as a “modern sporting rifle.” "Why more people are buying AR-15 rifles"

I believe that "AR-15 style rifle" is a better choice for the article title, per WP:COMMONNAME. I first encountered that issue at #Modern sporting rifle? and believe that "AR-15 style rifle" is much more intuitive for the general reader. See for example pageview stats for Colt AR-15 while AR-15 was a redirect to the Colt page. People were clearly looking for info on "AR-15 semi-automatic rifle" or similar. Please also see the discussion at WikiProject Firearms: #Why the generic page is not called AR-15.

Please let me know if there are any concerns. I would be happy to start an RM if needed. K.e.coffman (talk) 21:53, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Wow K.e.coffman, you're letting it all hang out. Good. RAF, I have no idea what you mean with "term most commonly associated with generic AR-15"; I don't think anyone, outside of your project maybe, hears "AR-15" and thinks "OH THAT'S THAT MODERN SPORTING RIFLE FOR SPORT!" I do find it amusing that you said, or quoted, "generic AR-15", which would also be appropriate. Nor do I know what the referent is of "it" or what you mean with happenstance. In the meantime I hope that you understand the reasons for the move and the terminology; I think we can do more for our reader in terms of redirects and hatnotes, but this is a good start. Drmies (talk) 22:19, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm. I know I said "AR-15 style rifle" above, but I'm not sure if "style" or "type" is more prevalent. I'm pretty sure I've seen both used. But frankly that's descending into unnecessary pedantry. ansh666 22:27, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Support move to AR-15 style rife. Furthermore, I think Modern sporting rifle shouldn't be a redirect to here - it should be a DAG or short stub - as it refers to several different types of rifles - e.g. SIG MCX [3] - as I understand it MSR can refer to almost any modern assault rife "dumbed down" to US retail regulatory requirements. AR-15 derivatives are perhaps the largest segment of this market - but not exclusively so.Icewhiz (talk) 07:16, 20 February 2018 (UTC) Note, there is also some pre-AR-15 use of this term - [4][5][6].Icewhiz (talk) 07:35, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Support move This is what it is most commonly known as, and I really fail to see the issue as to why it should not be called this.Slatersteven (talk) 13:17, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Support the move, I think it better describes the rifles. Additionally I think the use in mass shootings section strikes the right balance. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 13:38, 20 February 2018 (UTC).[reply]
• Support move. Surprised to see this done boldly, I thought I would have to build a pile of convincing evidence to make a strong case to ensure passage. I laid a bit of the groundwork for this when I created the redirect from this title on 12 January 2018 and am happy to see it moved over the redirect with a minimum of drama. Modern sporting rifleModern sporting rifle should redirect here as the primary topic for that "official" industry-coined name. Feel free to create Modern sporting rifle (disambiguation) for other uses. – wbm1058 (talk) 20:42, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• @Wbm1058: Thank you for having set up the redirect. Of note, even the discussion at WikiProject Firearms is using the heading “Use of AR-15 Style Rifles in Mass Shootings” (not “Use of Modern Sporting Rifles”…) so it was a no brainer. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:30, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This move was done improperly. The editor that moved this page title did so without consensus, and knowing full well this is a controversial subject that is still being debated even now. The editor should have posted a move request per Wikipedia:Requested moves/Controversial and sought consensus. Having four (4) like-minded editors quickly add "support" after the fact is exactly the type of local consensus that can lead to further disputes that I noted at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Firearms. A move such as this should be posted for a set duration, giving the community an opportunity to discuss it and hopefully achieve a more solid, community-wide consensus. - ^theWOLFchild 18:50, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Bold moves are not disallowed; there wasn't anything "improper" about it. The subsequent discussion validated the move. The term "Modern sporting rifle" is a non-neutral choice and is controversial as an article title. Neither is it a WP:COMMONNAME for this type of rifle:

• "Modern sporting rifle is a euphemism that the gun industry created in 2009 to describe modular semi-automatic rifles. The phrase is an artful attempt to recast weapons such as the MCX and the AR-15 (and its variants) as all-American toys." Omar Mateen Had a “Modern Sporting Rifle”, Slate

The page was moved to the previous name against Talk page consensus, which seems clear to me. Please also see WP:MRNOT: "Do not request a move review if someone has boldly moved a page and you disagree. Instead, attempt to discuss it with the editor, and if the matter continues to be unresolved, start a formal WP:RM discussion on the article's talk page." K.e.coffman (talk) 00:42, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

All your reasoning for moving it is based on your opinion, which is clearly biased. You knew full well there are ongoing discussions, debates even, over this very page name, among the other related issues. You are not new here, you know when a page move is controversial or not, or is likely to be contested, (which I have now done) in which case, you do not move the page (and you certainly don't move it again). You need to post a proper page move request. The mere fact that you've cited these guidelines yourself shows you are aware of all this. Claiming it was "validated after the fact" (by four (4) other like minded editors) is not how consensus works. You need to give others an opportunity to participate in any discussion before the page is moved. The page needs to go back to it prior name, and the policies & guidelines on page moves need be followed. - ^theWOLFchild 02:23, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I removed citations to primary sources from the 1st sentence of the lead. They are unneeded there anyway. Preserving this content here:

• AR-15 style rifle (also known as modern sporting rifle (MSR)) is a general category of modular semi-automatic rifles based on the Colt AR-15 design and now made by many different manufacturers.^{[1][2][3][4][5]}

Please let me know if there are any concerns. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:02, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be better to put back, at a minimum, the fifth one, that references the NSSF's website. It shows very clearly that the largest firearms trade group considers "modern sporting rifle" to be an equivalent term for "AR-15 style rifle". So even though it's a primary source, I think it's quite helpful. Although I would put it back with a different quote, or with no quote. And also, it could be placed right after the first mention of the term "modern sporting rifle". — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:24, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Good point; I re-added source #5 with this diff. Thank you for the suggestion. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:38, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Once the dust settles down I would hope we could start filling in a lot of the content that was likely in the older AR-15 articles. It would be good to have a complete section on how the rifles generally operate and variations/modifications to the basic design. Basically I think if someone comes to Wikipedia to learn how this type of rifle works and is built this would be the primary article. It could also cover some of the history starting with Armalite then Colt, touch on the M16 history etc. Yes, it can also have the politics with crime etc but I would hope we can keep it balanced. Just saying "it was the weapon used in X" feels a bit like the body count some have mentioned. We shouldn't hide that information but we should also include why gun rights people are opposed to bans etc. IMHO, it's not that including the crime information is bad, only that it seems that so often it's added as a one way thing. We should be sure to say why it's popular with law-abiding users and why sales have been strong etc. I would hope this article has length issues rather than just edit warring issues. Springee (talk) 02:23, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Question -- is this already covered in AR-15_style_rifle#Background? Since this is an article about a category, it makes sense that it would provide an overview, while the details can be filled out at each rifle's article. I.e. the content should be fairly high-level, providing info on the category of rifles. This is my current thinking on the topic at the moment. --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:18, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not really. For example, look at the level of detail in this section of the Colt AR-15 article [[7]] (and the next section). The Colt article as a lot more detail about the operation of the mechanism and the various parts. I'm not thinking this is a short term thing but I think it would be great to see this expand to include a lot more detail all around. There is so much information about the AR platform in general that ultimately we should be arguing about how to keep the article within the typical Wiki article size limits. This is something that I think will take time, I just don't want people to think the article's current state is where we should leave things. Springee (talk) 03:49, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes, but isn't Colt AR-15 one of the "AR-15 style rifles", i.e. the original one? Duplicating the same content here as at Colt_AR-15#Operating_mechanism would be redundant, no? Something high level would work better, IMO. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:10, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Technically the Colt bought the rights from AmaLite, the ArmaLite AR-15 is the original. Colt is the trademark holder for AR-15. PackMecEng (talk) 04:20, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not exactly, Fairchild Industries had a subsidiary, Fairchild Arms International, Ltd. and ArmaLite was their brand/trademark which they would sell to Colt.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 04:31, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• @PackMecEng: your statement is conflating the semi-automatic-only Colt AR-15 with the select-fire ArmaLite AR-15 assault rifle. The ArmaLite AR-15 has not been made for over 50 years and was never sold to civilians. I don't believe it can be considered to be part of "AR-15 style rifles" that are being discussed in this article. K.e.coffman (talk) 05:57, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• I think in particular the modular aspect has a lot of room for expansion, and probably deserves its own section heading.--Pharos (talk) 03:24, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Propose copying operational material from Colt AR-15 article? The Colt AR-15 article used to be the general AR-15 article. I would propose either copying or moving the Operating Mechanism and/or Features sections to this article. The Operating Mechanisms could then be expanded to talk about some of the variations that have been produced. For example, some manufactures replace the gas system with a piston-rod type setup. Calibers other than .223 and 5.56 have been offered. Also, even though it's political, I think a discussion of the feature changes manufactures have produced to comply with (bypass depending on your POV) assault weapons laws would also be relevant. Springee (talk) 01:13, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We still have a lot of errant redirects for general AR-15 related stuff going to specific model AR related articles instead of this one. Can we get a list and start updating all the links so people are not direct to the wrong article? PackMecEng (talk) 14:36, 21 February 2018 (UTC) Some to start with from here:[reply]

AR 15

AR-!%

Ar-15

AR-15 Rifle

AR-15 semi-automatic rifle

AR15

AR=15

Would it be okay for me to starting making the changes to those? PackMecEng (talk) 14:39, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Those should all go to Colt AR-15, though maybe some are questionable (do we need AR-1% and AR=15 spelling/shift mistakes?).Icewhiz (talk) 15:02, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Why would general AR-15 related searches goto a specific model page and not this one? PackMecEng (talk) 15:08, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Because AR-15 refers to a specific gun model. "AR-15 style" encompasses a wide range of guns some of which are not that similar to the AR-15, without the style suffix one would assume one is referring to an actual AR-15 (or very close clone, not a far cousin).Icewhiz (talk) 15:29, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I get the idea that "AR-15" is a trademarked name thus anything that is listed as "AR-15" should redirect to the article about the trademarked item. However, if we assume most people are searching for the generic term then we aren't helping when we send them here. Instead I would suggest that the links either go to the generic page (AR-15 already does this) or they go to the disambiguation page. We have already seen what happens when you drive general AR-15 traffic to the AR-15 (TM) page. Springee (talk) 15:38, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that these should all redirect to AR-15 style rifle to eliminate confusion. Would it be appropriate to narrow the scope of this article to only include rifles that use the same design? –dlthewave ☎ 16:05, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I would keep this open to AR based designs. So designs where a mfr changed say the gas system or cartridge type would be in scope. Part of what could make this a good article is including variations from the basic design. Basically I would err on the side of inclusion. Springee (talk) 16:40, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

An RfC related to this topic has been opened at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#RfC: Coverage of mass shootings in firearms articles. –dlthewave ☎ 17:16, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Modern sporting rifle → AR-15 style rifleAR-15 style rifle – see talk discussions and recent moves in log. An editor has requested that the article be renamed. - ^theWOLFchild 02:41, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Support move to AR-15 style rife. Furthermore, I think Modern sporting rifle shouldn't be a redirect to here - it should be a DAG or short stub - as it refers to several different types of rifles - e.g. SIG MCX [8] - as I understand it MSR can refer to almost any modern assault rife "dumbed down" to US retail regulatory requirements. AR-15 derivatives are perhaps the largest segment of this market - but not exclusively so.Icewhiz (talk) 07:16, 20 February 2018 (UTC) Note, there is also some pre-AR-15 use of this term - [9][10][11].Icewhiz (talk) 07:35, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Support move This is what it is most commonly known as, and I really fail to see the issue as to why it should not be called this.Slatersteven (talk) 13:17, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Support the move, I think it better describes the rifles. Additionally I think the use in mass shootings section strikes the right balance. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 13:38, 20 February 2018 (UTC).[reply]
• Support move. Surprised to see this done boldly, I thought I would have to build a pile of convincing evidence to make a strong case to ensure passage. I laid a bit of the groundwork for this when I created the redirect from this title on 12 January 2018 and am happy to see it moved over the redirect with a minimum of drama. Modern sporting rifleModern sporting rifle should redirect here as the primary topic for that "official" industry-coined name. Feel free to create Modern sporting rifle (disambiguation) for other uses. – wbm1058 (talk) 20:42, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]